Leadership and PC classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Leadership and PC classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord Nat
04-07-07, 10:53 PM Ok so I remember a rule somewhere saying you can take followers of PC levels but they count as one level hirer for the followers per level chart.

So basically a level 1 Fighter counts as a level 2 Follower, level 2 as 3 and so on.

Anyone know this rule or any other rules on Followers with PC levels?
runestar
04-07-07, 10:57 PM Think that was a variant 3.0 rule from the ELH.
In 3.5, your followers can be PC classes with no penalties. :)
Lord Nat
04-07-07, 11:17 PM Think that was a variant 3.0 rule from the ELH.
In 3.5, your followers can be PC classes with no penalties. :)

Can you give me the place it says that for 3.5?
runestar
04-07-07, 11:25 PM Can you give me the place it says that for 3.5?
I can't. It doesn't say that they have to be consisting only of NPC classes. Since this is not explicitly prohibited, one could logically extrapolate that PC class lvs are fair game.:)
Lord Nat
04-07-07, 11:28 PM I can't. It doesn't say that they have to be consisting only of NPC classes. Since this is not explicitly prohibited, one could logically extrapolate that PC class lvs are fair game.:)

I was kind of hoping for more of a real ruling on this...
I mean ya it does not say they have to be NPCs but nor does it say they CAN be PC classes...
Almast
04-07-07, 11:33 PM Really, the absence of denial is the presence of acceptance.

What if I were to say drow cannot be rogues The Monster Manual doesn't say they CAN be rogues, so, is it correct for me to say that, because they are not specifically allowed to be rogues, that they cannot be them?

If the book doesn't keep you from doing something clearly, then there isn't a rule against it.
Lord Nat
04-07-07, 11:39 PM Really, the absence of denial is the presence of acceptance.

What if I were to say drow cannot be rogues The Monster Manual doesn't say they CAN be rogues, so, is it correct for me to say that, because they are not specifically allowed to be rogues, that they cannot be them?

If the book doesn't keep you from doing something clearly, then there isn't a rule against it.

Um... to does in fact say anything with a Int of 3 or more can be given class levels.

You can't have a Fighter Dire Rat as it has a Int of 2.
So really it's more of a "If it does not say you can do it then it is more then likely you can't".

I mean it does not say I can't make two move actions to double jump, anyone that knows anything about jumping will tell you it CAN'T be done.

So I think I need a ruling first...
runestar
04-07-07, 11:51 PM Um... to does in fact say anything with a Int of 3 or more can be given class levels.
Actually, I think it is mentioned that you need at least int3 before you can take class lvs. Not sure where that quote comes from though, but I am quite sure it exists somewhere.

It has been mentioned on the wotc website by a few designers. Not sure how official that is though. But it seems consistent enough.

In theory, a fiendish monstrous scorpion could take lvs in barb. Whether it actually would is another matter though.:)
Tonil
04-08-07, 12:07 AM DMG 104:

"There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohorts."

DMG 105:

"Followers are similar to cohorts, except they are generally low level NPCs."

Also: "Followers don't earn experience and thus don't gain levels."

And: "Follower's don't demand a share of the treasure, although they depend on the PC they follow to equip them and keep them fed."

I read that as: If you want a "friend" with PC levels use the rules for Cohorts. If you want a follower, they are probably a NPC.
Lord Nat
04-08-07, 12:13 AM DMG 104:

"There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohorts."

DMG 105:

"Followers are similar to cohorts, except they are generally low level NPCs."

Also: "Followers don't earn experience and thus don't gain levels."

And: "Follower's don't demand a share of the treasure, although they depend on the PC they follow to equip them and keep them fed."

I read that as: If you want a "friend" with PC levels use the rules for Cohorts. If you want a follower, they are probably a NPC.

See that is the way I have been reading it.
But the argument comes up for settings with more PC leveled people then NPC people for most of the world then they have to be PCs right?
But that is more powerful then normal Followers.

Thus that is why I am looking for rules on such.
Tonil
04-08-07, 12:17 AM But the argument comes up for settings with more PC leveled people then NPC people for most of the world then they have to be PCs right?

I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean that most of the population in your setting has levels in the PC classes, and that NPC classes are minority?
Lord Nat
04-08-07, 12:22 AM I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean that most of the population in your setting has levels in the PC classes, and that NPC classes are minority?

Yes that is what I mean.
It is a post apoc kind of setting and there are more PC classes then there are NPCs.

There are some NPCs is a few of the left over towns but for the most part the world has PCs.

P.S. This setting is Dragonmech if you know it.
runestar
04-08-07, 12:27 AM No, the world can have more npcs than pcs. Just that all the people you do allow to follow you can be PCs. Think of it as cherry picking from the cream of the crop.:)
Tonil
04-08-07, 12:35 AM In such a case it seems that a PC follower should be allowed.

If one can attract five 1st level (NPC) Warriors then some 1st level (PC) Fighters is not too much of a stretch. I think that they would normally not want to be followers, but if everyone is a PC then they would premumeably be attracted to follow the best leaders out there out of simple self-interest.

I also think that your rule is from 3.0, but this setting seems to be a case that that rule would be an appropriate adjustment to the usual tables. But I am not familiar with the setting.

Not a "ruling," just my 2cp.
Empiro
04-08-07, 12:40 AM No, the world can have more npcs than pcs. Just that all the people you do allow to follow you can be PCs. Think of it as cherry picking from the cream of the crop.:)

It does depend on how you interpret how the followers come about.

If you (or the DM), see it as a bunch of people show up at your door asking to join, and you get to pick which ones join and which to turn down, then yes, you probably can pick exactly which classes your followers have. It's kind of strange though, because it would imply that your pool of people willing to work for you for free is very large, yet for some reason, you can only keep up to a certain number of them (your follower limit).

The alternate interpretation is that your fame draws people to come follow you for free. You don't really get to control who or what classes they are. The bulk will probably be similar to you (e.g. fighters attract warriors and fighters, bards attract performers and bards, etc.). You're free to turn down people you don't want, but that means that you just have fewer followers. In this interpretation, the follower limit represents the long term steady state of new followers joining, and old ones leaving (to start a family, retire, etc.).

I generally play under the latter interpretation, though I do allow PCs some control over the kinds of people they attract. So the real answer is: "ask your DM".
SirGeshko
04-08-07, 01:03 AM DMG 105:

"Followers are similar to cohorts, except they are generally low level NPCs."

I fail to see how that sentence restricts followers to NPC classes. When you think about it, a cohort is generally a higher level NPC. Does this mean cohorts are restricted to NPC classes? Of course not!

The DM should work with you to give you your followers. The campaign will dictate what followers you recieve, not RAW. Remember rule 0!
Critalondel
04-09-07, 02:38 AM It is too bad the rules aren't just a little clearer on this, though (and they can't be TOO clear, or we wouldn't be having this conversation right now). For the first time ever I've got a PC that I'm actually a little tempted to take Leadership with, and it's so hazy on what caliber of followers you get with it (IE, Warriors and Experts, or Fighters and Rogues?) that I'm still undecided.
Lucas Blackstone
04-09-07, 03:39 AM I could be misunderstanding what most of you are saying but it seems like you are implying that only player characters can have class levels when that is not the case at all. That being said, there's no reason why you couldn't have followers that have normal class levels. As a matter of fact, if they qualify for it, I don't see why they couldn't have prestige class levels if they met the qualifications.
T_K
04-09-07, 04:04 AM In theory, a fiendish monstrous scorpion could take lvs in barb. Whether it actually would is another matter though.:)

My DM might be reading this, don't give him any ideas. :eek:

On-Topic:
I could swear I've seen an official printed example of a Leadership-related rule that featured a cohort with PC class levels. In any case, there's no limitation on the class types in the RAW.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Nat 04-07-07, 10:53 PM	Ok so I remember a rule somewhere saying you can take followers of PC levels but they count as one level hirer for the followers per level chart. So basically a level 1 Fighter counts as a level 2 Follower, level 2 as 3 and so on. Anyone know this rule or any other rules on Followers with PC levels?
runestar 04-07-07, 10:57 PM	Think that was a variant 3.0 rule from the ELH. In 3.5, your followers can be PC classes with no penalties. :)
Lord Nat 04-07-07, 11:17 PM	Think that was a variant 3.0 rule from the ELH. In 3.5, your followers can be PC classes with no penalties. :) Can you give me the place it says that for 3.5?
runestar 04-07-07, 11:25 PM	Can you give me the place it says that for 3.5? I can't. It doesn't say that they have to be consisting only of NPC classes. Since this is not explicitly prohibited, one could logically extrapolate that PC class lvs are fair game.:)
Lord Nat 04-07-07, 11:28 PM	I can't. It doesn't say that they have to be consisting only of NPC classes. Since this is not explicitly prohibited, one could logically extrapolate that PC class lvs are fair game.:) I was kind of hoping for more of a real ruling on this... I mean ya it does not say they have to be NPCs but nor does it say they CAN be PC classes...
Almast 04-07-07, 11:33 PM	Really, the absence of denial is the presence of acceptance. What if I were to say drow cannot be rogues The Monster Manual doesn't say they CAN be rogues, so, is it correct for me to say that, because they are not specifically allowed to be rogues, that they cannot be them? If the book doesn't keep you from doing something clearly, then there isn't a rule against it.
Lord Nat 04-07-07, 11:39 PM	Really, the absence of denial is the presence of acceptance. What if I were to say drow cannot be rogues The Monster Manual doesn't say they CAN be rogues, so, is it correct for me to say that, because they are not specifically allowed to be rogues, that they cannot be them? If the book doesn't keep you from doing something clearly, then there isn't a rule against it. Um... to does in fact say anything with a Int of 3 or more can be given class levels. You can't have a Fighter Dire Rat as it has a Int of 2. So really it's more of a "If it does not say you can do it then it is more then likely you can't". I mean it does not say I can't make two move actions to double jump, anyone that knows anything about jumping will tell you it CAN'T be done. So I think I need a ruling first...
runestar 04-07-07, 11:51 PM	Um... to does in fact say anything with a Int of 3 or more can be given class levels. Actually, I think it is mentioned that you need at least int3 before you can take class lvs. Not sure where that quote comes from though, but I am quite sure it exists somewhere. It has been mentioned on the wotc website by a few designers. Not sure how official that is though. But it seems consistent enough. In theory, a fiendish monstrous scorpion could take lvs in barb. Whether it actually would is another matter though.:)
Tonil 04-08-07, 12:07 AM	DMG 104: "There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohorts." DMG 105: "Followers are similar to cohorts, except they are generally low level NPCs." Also: "Followers don't earn experience and thus don't gain levels." And: "Follower's don't demand a share of the treasure, although they depend on the PC they follow to equip them and keep them fed." I read that as: If you want a "friend" with PC levels use the rules for Cohorts. If you want a follower, they are probably a NPC.
Lord Nat 04-08-07, 12:13 AM	DMG 104: "There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohorts." DMG 105: "Followers are similar to cohorts, except they are generally low level NPCs." Also: "Followers don't earn experience and thus don't gain levels." And: "Follower's don't demand a share of the treasure, although they depend on the PC they follow to equip them and keep them fed." I read that as: If you want a "friend" with PC levels use the rules for Cohorts. If you want a follower, they are probably a NPC. See that is the way I have been reading it. But the argument comes up for settings with more PC leveled people then NPC people for most of the world then they have to be PCs right? But that is more powerful then normal Followers. Thus that is why I am looking for rules on such.
Tonil 04-08-07, 12:17 AM	But the argument comes up for settings with more PC leveled people then NPC people for most of the world then they have to be PCs right? I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean that most of the population in your setting has levels in the PC classes, and that NPC classes are minority?
Lord Nat 04-08-07, 12:22 AM	I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean that most of the population in your setting has levels in the PC classes, and that NPC classes are minority? Yes that is what I mean. It is a post apoc kind of setting and there are more PC classes then there are NPCs. There are some NPCs is a few of the left over towns but for the most part the world has PCs. P.S. This setting is Dragonmech if you know it.
runestar 04-08-07, 12:27 AM	No, the world can have more npcs than pcs. Just that all the people you do allow to follow you can be PCs. Think of it as cherry picking from the cream of the crop.:)
Tonil 04-08-07, 12:35 AM	In such a case it seems that a PC follower should be allowed. If one can attract five 1st level (NPC) Warriors then some 1st level (PC) Fighters is not too much of a stretch. I think that they would normally not want to be followers, but if everyone is a PC then they would premumeably be attracted to follow the best leaders out there out of simple self-interest. I also think that your rule is from 3.0, but this setting seems to be a case that that rule would be an appropriate adjustment to the usual tables. But I am not familiar with the setting. Not a "ruling," just my 2cp.
Empiro 04-08-07, 12:40 AM	No, the world can have more npcs than pcs. Just that all the people you do allow to follow you can be PCs. Think of it as cherry picking from the cream of the crop.:) It does depend on how you interpret how the followers come about. If you (or the DM), see it as a bunch of people show up at your door asking to join, and you get to pick which ones join and which to turn down, then yes, you probably can pick exactly which classes your followers have. It's kind of strange though, because it would imply that your pool of people willing to work for you for free is very large, yet for some reason, you can only keep up to a certain number of them (your follower limit). The alternate interpretation is that your fame draws people to come follow you for free. You don't really get to control who or what classes they are. The bulk will probably be similar to you (e.g. fighters attract warriors and fighters, bards attract performers and bards, etc.). You're free to turn down people you don't want, but that means that you just have fewer followers. In this interpretation, the follower limit represents the long term steady state of new followers joining, and old ones leaving (to start a family, retire, etc.). I generally play under the latter interpretation, though I do allow PCs some control over the kinds of people they attract. So the real answer is: "ask your DM".
SirGeshko 04-08-07, 01:03 AM	DMG 105: "Followers are similar to cohorts, except they are generally low level NPCs." I fail to see how that sentence restricts followers to NPC classes. When you think about it, a cohort is generally a higher level NPC. Does this mean cohorts are restricted to NPC classes? Of course not! The DM should work with you to give you your followers. The campaign will dictate what followers you recieve, not RAW. Remember rule 0!
Critalondel 04-09-07, 02:38 AM	It is too bad the rules aren't just a little clearer on this, though (and they can't be TOO clear, or we wouldn't be having this conversation right now). For the first time ever I've got a PC that I'm actually a little tempted to take Leadership with, and it's so hazy on what caliber of followers you get with it (IE, Warriors and Experts, or Fighters and Rogues?) that I'm still undecided.
Lucas Blackstone 04-09-07, 03:39 AM	I could be misunderstanding what most of you are saying but it seems like you are implying that only player characters can have class levels when that is not the case at all. That being said, there's no reason why you couldn't have followers that have normal class levels. As a matter of fact, if they qualify for it, I don't see why they couldn't have prestige class levels if they met the qualifications.
T_K 04-09-07, 04:04 AM	In theory, a fiendish monstrous scorpion could take lvs in barb. Whether it actually would is another matter though.:) My DM might be reading this, don't give him any ideas. :eek: On-Topic: I could swear I've seen an official printed example of a Leadership-related rule that featured a cohort with PC class levels. In any case, there's no limitation on the class types in the RAW.