Leadership vs. Apprentice/Mentor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Leadership vs. Apprentice/Mentor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ebonarc
08-19-07, 05:30 PM I've been looking over the descriptions of Leadership in the PHB and DMG and the Apprentice and Mentor feats in the DMG II, trying to make a decision. I like the idea of my character (future PC, I'm between campaigns) having an apprentice, and all of the character backgrounds I come up with seem to involve a mentor of some sort. However, I can't decide whether I like the idea of a cohort or apprentice better.In general, as well, I just can't decide which I'd rather take-Leadership, or Apprentice and Mentor.

What are your experiences with them and opinion of them, in terms of both game mechanics and flavor, from the perspective of DM or player?
jaelis
08-19-07, 10:28 PM They are pretty different. Being mentor gives some nice benefits, but you don't get a cohort to come along on your adventures.

Leadership is almost certainly going to be more powerful in general. But it just depends how you see your character... more of a teacher, or more of a captain?
Ebonarc
08-19-07, 10:40 PM They are pretty different. Being mentor gives some nice benefits, but you don't get a cohort to come along on your adventures.When the apprentice reaches 5th level, they follow the PC as a cohort.

Leadership is almost certainly going to be more powerful in general. But it just depends how you see your character... more of a teacher, or more of a captain?Teacher, definitely.

My main goal is a cohort, from either feat(s). For Leadership, I have no use for followers (sounds like a pain to keep track of, and most of my character crave anonymity). Conversely, the Apprentice and Mentor feats sound like a lot of bookkeeping as well.
jaelis
08-19-07, 10:59 PM When the apprentice reaches 5th level, they follow the PC as a cohort.

Huh, I guess I never noticed that. Apprentice/mentor is pretty good then... you get a cohort (eventually), along with all the nice skill bonuses and other benefits starting from level 1.

Conversely, the Apprentice and Mentor feats sound like a lot of bookkeeping as well.
Never struck me that way, but as you can tell we haven't play with them. Seemed like most of the training stuff is back burner, as long as you're in a campaign with down time.

I guess that would be a real factor. With no down time, Leadership is the only way to go.
Ebonarc
08-19-07, 11:16 PM Huh, I guess I never noticed that.It's hard to find. The "Benefits" section of the feat entries (which are in a sidebar) includes everything mentioned in the appropriate sections. It's alot of reading. Apprentice/mentor is pretty good then... you get a cohort (eventually), along with all the nice skill bonuses and other benefits starting from level 1.That's what I like about it. The part of Leadership I want (cohort) combined with skill bonuses and class skill status, which I love too (I'm fixated on getting good skill modifiers:D). Never struck me that way, but as you can tell we haven't play with them. Seemed like most of the training stuff is back burner, as long as you're in a campaign with down time.

I guess that would be a real factor. With no down time, Leadership is the only way to go.I hadn't thought about the time issues. The campaigns I'm in tend to roleplay everything (including the rinky-dink details most people gloss over), so that could prove problematic.
Saric
08-20-07, 09:28 AM I never really dabbled that much with the mentor feat except for once when I included it as a benefit in a druid circle. (I was using affiliations at the time)

The player upon achiving a certain level of prestige within the circle was actually smiled upon and gained more respect for churning out new apprentices that were part of the circle. It was very fun to play out without the headaches instead of what to do with 100 followers and no stronghold.

With leadership and using it many times in small groups and even the mid ones, It is best to keep the cohort's power down, too many times I saw the cohort take too much of the limelight away from other pc's because maybe its just me, but I tend to powergame my npc's.

Either way, some of the spotlight will be taken off the pc's and treasure as well. And despite the fact that the dmg says you shouldn't include them in xp calculations, having a npc 2 levels lower no matter what the class is makes the encounter that much easier because of the extra action they give the party. (and the general rule of thumb is never have an actual PC more than 2 levels lower than the average party level) Also the drain on party gold is a slight issue.

As for mentor, the apprentices didn't really overshadow the party/campaign at all due to the fact of them being SO far beneath the level. (much akin to anakin skywalker and obi-wan kenobi in episode 2.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ebonarc 08-19-07, 05:30 PM	I've been looking over the descriptions of Leadership in the PHB and DMG and the Apprentice and Mentor feats in the DMG II, trying to make a decision. I like the idea of my character (future PC, I'm between campaigns) having an apprentice, and all of the character backgrounds I come up with seem to involve a mentor of some sort. However, I can't decide whether I like the idea of a cohort or apprentice better.In general, as well, I just can't decide which I'd rather take-Leadership, or Apprentice and Mentor. What are your experiences with them and opinion of them, in terms of both game mechanics and flavor, from the perspective of DM or player?
jaelis 08-19-07, 10:28 PM	They are pretty different. Being mentor gives some nice benefits, but you don't get a cohort to come along on your adventures. Leadership is almost certainly going to be more powerful in general. But it just depends how you see your character... more of a teacher, or more of a captain?
Ebonarc 08-19-07, 10:40 PM	They are pretty different. Being mentor gives some nice benefits, but you don't get a cohort to come along on your adventures.When the apprentice reaches 5th level, they follow the PC as a cohort. Leadership is almost certainly going to be more powerful in general. But it just depends how you see your character... more of a teacher, or more of a captain?Teacher, definitely. My main goal is a cohort, from either feat(s). For Leadership, I have no use for followers (sounds like a pain to keep track of, and most of my character crave anonymity). Conversely, the Apprentice and Mentor feats sound like a lot of bookkeeping as well.
jaelis 08-19-07, 10:59 PM	When the apprentice reaches 5th level, they follow the PC as a cohort. Huh, I guess I never noticed that. Apprentice/mentor is pretty good then... you get a cohort (eventually), along with all the nice skill bonuses and other benefits starting from level 1. Conversely, the Apprentice and Mentor feats sound like a lot of bookkeeping as well. Never struck me that way, but as you can tell we haven't play with them. Seemed like most of the training stuff is back burner, as long as you're in a campaign with down time. I guess that would be a real factor. With no down time, Leadership is the only way to go.
Ebonarc 08-19-07, 11:16 PM	Huh, I guess I never noticed that.It's hard to find. The "Benefits" section of the feat entries (which are in a sidebar) includes everything mentioned in the appropriate sections. It's alot of reading. Apprentice/mentor is pretty good then... you get a cohort (eventually), along with all the nice skill bonuses and other benefits starting from level 1.That's what I like about it. The part of Leadership I want (cohort) combined with skill bonuses and class skill status, which I love too (I'm fixated on getting good skill modifiers:D). Never struck me that way, but as you can tell we haven't play with them. Seemed like most of the training stuff is back burner, as long as you're in a campaign with down time. I guess that would be a real factor. With no down time, Leadership is the only way to go.I hadn't thought about the time issues. The campaigns I'm in tend to roleplay everything (including the rinky-dink details most people gloss over), so that could prove problematic.
Saric 08-20-07, 09:28 AM	I never really dabbled that much with the mentor feat except for once when I included it as a benefit in a druid circle. (I was using affiliations at the time) The player upon achiving a certain level of prestige within the circle was actually smiled upon and gained more respect for churning out new apprentices that were part of the circle. It was very fun to play out without the headaches instead of what to do with 100 followers and no stronghold. With leadership and using it many times in small groups and even the mid ones, It is best to keep the cohort's power down, too many times I saw the cohort take too much of the limelight away from other pc's because maybe its just me, but I tend to powergame my npc's. Either way, some of the spotlight will be taken off the pc's and treasure as well. And despite the fact that the dmg says you shouldn't include them in xp calculations, having a npc 2 levels lower no matter what the class is makes the encounter that much easier because of the extra action they give the party. (and the general rule of thumb is never have an actual PC more than 2 levels lower than the average party level) Also the drain on party gold is a slight issue. As for mentor, the apprentices didn't really overshadow the party/campaign at all due to the fact of them being SO far beneath the level. (much akin to anakin skywalker and obi-wan kenobi in episode 2.)