Leadership vs. LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Leadership vs. LA [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HeNeedsAName
05-02-07, 08:23 PM Sorry if that's been asked before, but I can't find anything...

How would level adjustment affect your leadership score, which is, quoting the DMG: "level plus charisma modifier"? Does it add or does it not add?

How would level adjustment affect the maximum cohort level, which is "your level -2"? Since the cohort is arguably the most important thing about the Leadership feat, level adjustment not adding here would kind of ruin the entire feat for anyone with more than +1 LA...
theotherdraxen
05-02-07, 09:36 PM By RAW, LA does not increase your character level, just your Effective Character Level. So, yeah, it makes your cohorts weaker. Most DMs houserule this away.
Grimmsfeld
05-03-07, 02:21 AM Though, you could very easily claim the "Special Power/Ability" bonus that they have, if you had a template.
tarkin
05-03-07, 10:24 AM Yes, there is that, but it is weak (like +1 or something)l.

Here is the house rule that I use. I like it because it works on several levels:

When playing a race with LA, you can ignore LA for both you and your cohort if your cohort is the same race as you are.

Effecitvely this means that a 7th level Drow can get a Drow cohort of the same level that an otherwise identical 7th level Human could get in a human.

This encourages people of odd races to get cohorts of their own race, which makes a lot of sense to me. People like their own kind, it makes a lot of sense to get a cohort of your own race and it makes sense that a cohort looking for a leader would prefer someone of his own race.
Darknight303
05-03-07, 01:06 PM your house rule coule be abused by someone with a high LA, has that ever been a problem?
G_Mancer
05-03-07, 01:15 PM i'm trying to find where it says "your effective character level only allpies in these circumstances"
is it just me? or is your effective character level effectively your character level?

either case, notice it doesn't say "your character level" the description says "level" which is a general term. ECL is what should be counted.

also this problem is run into when determining max ranks in skills. "...a number of ranks equal to 3+ your lvl...." if it didn't want to include Level adjustments, they would have said "3+hit dice" and dont give me the "core books dont have LA" because core rule books DO have hitdice. and would have specified just hit-dice if it meant that.

to conclude. whenever you see "level" or "character level" it means your ECL. a human fighter 5 is ECL 5, and a bugbear fighter 2 is also an ECL 5. ECL=LVL=Char LVL
tarkin
05-03-07, 01:18 PM your house rule coule be abused by someone with a high LA, has that ever been a problem?

I have never had a problem with it.

Can you describe the abuse?

If a 9th level human Sorcorer can get a 7th level fighter as their their cohort, why can't an ancient black dragon with 9 levels of Sorcoreror get an ancient black dragon with 7 levels of fighter as a cohort?
Darknight303
05-03-07, 04:45 PM I have never had a problem with it.

Can you describe the abuse?

sorry just overanalyzed a little bit, now that I look at it it just looks like a decent fix
Dracosis
05-03-07, 05:51 PM G_mancer is incorrect. Your effective character level is not always equal to your character level.

The book savage species provides a good explanation of the difference between ECL and CL on the first few pages. You only use your effective character level in two instances calculating how much experience you gain and how much stating wealth you have when starting at levels above one.

His example bugbear with two levels of fighter is a 5th level character(3 hit dice + 2 levels of fighter = level 5), however with the +1 level adjustment he has an effective character level 6. This means that he calculates skill points and max skill ranks like a 5th level character but he gains experience as a 6th level character and would also have the starting wealth of a 6th level character.
Garonak
05-04-07, 07:15 AM In my groups we houserule to ECL+cha instead of lvl+cha.
A Monster of Legend Half-Dragon Half Ogre (LA+12) Fighter 10 should be able to get a cohort with more than ecl 8.
Breetai
05-09-07, 04:51 PM I'd love to hear from the sage on this.

Does a 2nd level Half Celestial Qualify for the leadership feat due to the +4 ECL and 6th level requirement? I'd say no on the one hand but I also think they should get the ECL included for thier total leadership score and cohort level which is totally contradictiary.
Zaistars69
05-09-07, 04:57 PM G_mancer is incorrect. Your effective character level is not always equal to your character level.

The book savage species provides a good explanation of the difference between ECL and CL on the first few pages. You only use your effective character level in two instances calculating how much experience you gain and how much stating wealth you have when starting at levels above one.

His example bugbear with two levels of fighter is a 5th level character(3 hit dice + 2 levels of fighter = level 5), however with the +1 level adjustment he has an effective character level 6. This means that he calculates skill points and max skill ranks like a 5th level character but he gains experience as a 6th level character and would also have the starting wealth of a 6th level character.

I second.
Garonak
05-10-07, 02:48 AM I'd love to hear from the sage on this.

Does a 2nd level Half Celestial Qualify for the leadership feat due to the +4 ECL and 6th level requirement? I'd say no on the one hand but I also think they should get the ECL included for thier total leadership score and cohort level which is totally contradictiary.

The feat requires 6 lvls. A half-celestial lvl 2 doesn't have that. But for the LA counting in the leadership score whenever he/she does get the feat, well... that I'm all for.
Breetai
05-10-07, 02:19 PM The feat requires 6 lvls. A half-celestial lvl 2 doesn't have that. But for the LA counting in the leadership score whenever he/she does get the feat, well... that I'm all for.

Ahh but he does have 6 levels I.E. 2 characrater levels + 4 Level Adjustments = ECL 6

IMO That scinario is even more appropriate than including the ECL for leadership benifits.
PEBKAC
05-10-07, 03:27 PM I'd love to hear from the sage on this.

Does a 2nd level Half Celestial Qualify for the leadership feat due to the +4 ECL and 6th level requirement? I'd say no on the one hand but I also think they should get the ECL included for thier total leadership score and cohort level which is totally contradictiary.

ECL is used to determine starting gold and xp to next level. It is not used to determine feats or skill points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#featAcquisitionandAb ilityScoreIncreases)

Leadership is a feat, thus the answer is no, they do not qualify for the feat yet.
Garonak
05-10-07, 04:57 PM Ahh but he does have 6 levels I.E. 2 characrater levels + 4 Level Adjustments = ECL 6

As Pebkac stated, LA is not lvls, and they never will be. Only experience and starting gold.
theotherdraxen
05-10-07, 05:41 PM Yes, there is that, but it is weak (like +1 or something)l.

Here is the house rule that I use. I like it because it works on several levels:

When playing a race with LA, you can ignore LA for both you and your cohort if your cohort is the same race as you are.

Effecitvely this means that a 7th level Drow can get a Drow cohort of the same level that an otherwise identical 7th level Human could get in a human.

This encourages people of odd races to get cohorts of their own race, which makes a lot of sense to me. People like their own kind, it makes a lot of sense to get a cohort of your own race and it makes sense that a cohort looking for a leader would prefer someone of his own race.

I don't know about this houserule. You've made racism a mechanically superior option, and that doesn't sit well with me.

Ahh but he does have 6 levels I.E. 2 characrater levels + 4 Level Adjustments = ECL 6

IMO That scinario is even more appropriate than including the ECL for leadership benifits.

Leadership requires character level 6, not effective character level 6.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HeNeedsAName 05-02-07, 08:23 PM	Sorry if that's been asked before, but I can't find anything... How would level adjustment affect your leadership score, which is, quoting the DMG: "level plus charisma modifier"? Does it add or does it not add? How would level adjustment affect the maximum cohort level, which is "your level -2"? Since the cohort is arguably the most important thing about the Leadership feat, level adjustment not adding here would kind of ruin the entire feat for anyone with more than +1 LA...
theotherdraxen 05-02-07, 09:36 PM	By RAW, LA does not increase your character level, just your Effective Character Level. So, yeah, it makes your cohorts weaker. Most DMs houserule this away.
Grimmsfeld 05-03-07, 02:21 AM	Though, you could very easily claim the "Special Power/Ability" bonus that they have, if you had a template.
tarkin 05-03-07, 10:24 AM	Yes, there is that, but it is weak (like +1 or something)l. Here is the house rule that I use. I like it because it works on several levels: When playing a race with LA, you can ignore LA for both you and your cohort if your cohort is the same race as you are. Effecitvely this means that a 7th level Drow can get a Drow cohort of the same level that an otherwise identical 7th level Human could get in a human. This encourages people of odd races to get cohorts of their own race, which makes a lot of sense to me. People like their own kind, it makes a lot of sense to get a cohort of your own race and it makes sense that a cohort looking for a leader would prefer someone of his own race.
Darknight303 05-03-07, 01:06 PM	your house rule coule be abused by someone with a high LA, has that ever been a problem?
G_Mancer 05-03-07, 01:15 PM	i'm trying to find where it says "your effective character level only allpies in these circumstances" is it just me? or is your effective character level effectively your character level? either case, notice it doesn't say "your character level" the description says "level" which is a general term. ECL is what should be counted. also this problem is run into when determining max ranks in skills. "...a number of ranks equal to 3+ your lvl...." if it didn't want to include Level adjustments, they would have said "3+hit dice" and dont give me the "core books dont have LA" because core rule books DO have hitdice. and would have specified just hit-dice if it meant that. to conclude. whenever you see "level" or "character level" it means your ECL. a human fighter 5 is ECL 5, and a bugbear fighter 2 is also an ECL 5. ECL=LVL=Char LVL
tarkin 05-03-07, 01:18 PM	your house rule coule be abused by someone with a high LA, has that ever been a problem? I have never had a problem with it. Can you describe the abuse? If a 9th level human Sorcorer can get a 7th level fighter as their their cohort, why can't an ancient black dragon with 9 levels of Sorcoreror get an ancient black dragon with 7 levels of fighter as a cohort?
Darknight303 05-03-07, 04:45 PM	I have never had a problem with it. Can you describe the abuse? sorry just overanalyzed a little bit, now that I look at it it just looks like a decent fix
Dracosis 05-03-07, 05:51 PM	G_mancer is incorrect. Your effective character level is not always equal to your character level. The book savage species provides a good explanation of the difference between ECL and CL on the first few pages. You only use your effective character level in two instances calculating how much experience you gain and how much stating wealth you have when starting at levels above one. His example bugbear with two levels of fighter is a 5th level character(3 hit dice + 2 levels of fighter = level 5), however with the +1 level adjustment he has an effective character level 6. This means that he calculates skill points and max skill ranks like a 5th level character but he gains experience as a 6th level character and would also have the starting wealth of a 6th level character.
Garonak 05-04-07, 07:15 AM	In my groups we houserule to ECL+cha instead of lvl+cha. A Monster of Legend Half-Dragon Half Ogre (LA+12) Fighter 10 should be able to get a cohort with more than ecl 8.
Breetai 05-09-07, 04:51 PM	I'd love to hear from the sage on this. Does a 2nd level Half Celestial Qualify for the leadership feat due to the +4 ECL and 6th level requirement? I'd say no on the one hand but I also think they should get the ECL included for thier total leadership score and cohort level which is totally contradictiary.
Zaistars69 05-09-07, 04:57 PM	G_mancer is incorrect. Your effective character level is not always equal to your character level. The book savage species provides a good explanation of the difference between ECL and CL on the first few pages. You only use your effective character level in two instances calculating how much experience you gain and how much stating wealth you have when starting at levels above one. His example bugbear with two levels of fighter is a 5th level character(3 hit dice + 2 levels of fighter = level 5), however with the +1 level adjustment he has an effective character level 6. This means that he calculates skill points and max skill ranks like a 5th level character but he gains experience as a 6th level character and would also have the starting wealth of a 6th level character. I second.
Garonak 05-10-07, 02:48 AM	I'd love to hear from the sage on this. Does a 2nd level Half Celestial Qualify for the leadership feat due to the +4 ECL and 6th level requirement? I'd say no on the one hand but I also think they should get the ECL included for thier total leadership score and cohort level which is totally contradictiary. The feat requires 6 lvls. A half-celestial lvl 2 doesn't have that. But for the LA counting in the leadership score whenever he/she does get the feat, well... that I'm all for.
Breetai 05-10-07, 02:19 PM	The feat requires 6 lvls. A half-celestial lvl 2 doesn't have that. But for the LA counting in the leadership score whenever he/she does get the feat, well... that I'm all for. Ahh but he does have 6 levels I.E. 2 characrater levels + 4 Level Adjustments = ECL 6 IMO That scinario is even more appropriate than including the ECL for leadership benifits.
PEBKAC 05-10-07, 03:27 PM	I'd love to hear from the sage on this. Does a 2nd level Half Celestial Qualify for the leadership feat due to the +4 ECL and 6th level requirement? I'd say no on the one hand but I also think they should get the ECL included for thier total leadership score and cohort level which is totally contradictiary. ECL is used to determine starting gold and xp to next level. It is not used to determine feats or skill points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#featAcquisitionandAb ilityScoreIncreases) Leadership is a feat, thus the answer is no, they do not qualify for the feat yet.
Garonak 05-10-07, 04:57 PM	Ahh but he does have 6 levels I.E. 2 characrater levels + 4 Level Adjustments = ECL 6 As Pebkac stated, LA is not lvls, and they never will be. Only experience and starting gold.
theotherdraxen 05-10-07, 05:41 PM	Yes, there is that, but it is weak (like +1 or something)l. Here is the house rule that I use. I like it because it works on several levels: When playing a race with LA, you can ignore LA for both you and your cohort if your cohort is the same race as you are. Effecitvely this means that a 7th level Drow can get a Drow cohort of the same level that an otherwise identical 7th level Human could get in a human. This encourages people of odd races to get cohorts of their own race, which makes a lot of sense to me. People like their own kind, it makes a lot of sense to get a cohort of your own race and it makes sense that a cohort looking for a leader would prefer someone of his own race. I don't know about this houserule. You've made racism a mechanically superior option, and that doesn't sit well with me. Ahh but he does have 6 levels I.E. 2 characrater levels + 4 Level Adjustments = ECL 6 IMO That scinario is even more appropriate than including the ECL for leadership benifits. Leadership requires character level 6, not effective character level 6.