Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quidam 10-31-07, 03:14 AM	I'm picking up leadership in a couple of levels and, while I'm enjoying putting together my cohort, I find myself eager for ideas on how to put to use the followers one attracts through use of the feat. What are some of the more memorable uses you've seen followers put to?
Lokathor 10-31-07, 08:22 AM	Warforged who can tirelessly craft or work farms through the night. Get them continual flame torches and they can bring in the cash. Minuscule amounts of cash on the adventuring scale, but 15-20% Warforged followers can cover the basic expenses for all the rest of your followers.
Bihlbo 10-31-07, 01:39 PM	By "warforged" of course you mean "zombies" right? Zombies own. :D Followers suck, of course. By most acceptable logical standards, a level 1 character isn't even on-par with a 30-year old human farmer. So you're talking about people who really don't have much more to do with their life but follow someone around and mooch. Followers are generally non-combatants. Because of this, there are only a few uses I've ever had for followers. They are all Craft, Profession, Perform, or Knowledge (religion) skill users. Your professionals are the easiest to manage, since they all just earn coin as workers, generally in service jobs. Your crafters are all working at making things. Performers can act as a troupe of actors or musicians that travel with you - these are handier than you might think because not only can they earn a little money to support themselves, but they can also gather information from the locals, or steal from people as they perform (and get rubes drunk). Then of course, you have your religious followers, who perfectly suit a cleric character. The biggest problem I've always had with followers is where to put them. Do you drag them around with you all the time and risk their lives? Or do you set them up with digs and have them act as your serfs?
StruckingFuggle 10-31-07, 01:41 PM	Warforged who can tirelessly craft or work farms through the night. Get them continual flame torches and they can bring in the cash. I don't know about Profession, but Warforged can't Craft more/faster than other races. I think. Pretty sure it's in their racial description.
Lokathor 10-31-07, 02:11 PM	By "warforged" of course you mean "zombies" right? Zombies own. :D Zombies are no good. They don't get skills, so they only make 1sp/day. Remember that in 3.5, followers use the rules for cohorts except for not getting EXP and having pre-set levels. This means that they can be of any class and race combo you want. So, take advantage of that however you can. I don't know about Profession, but Warforged can't Craft more/faster than other races. I think. Pretty sure it's in their racial description.They cannot craft any one magical item faster, because they can only work on an individual item for up to 8 hours. They can however craft different items (or work different professions) in shifts spread around the day. Work as a chef all day (robots make great cooks), then till soil and plant seeds during swing shift, and then carve bows and arrows during the night.
Quidam 10-31-07, 02:34 PM	Remember that in 3.5, followers use the rules for cohorts except for not getting EXP and having pre-set levels. This means that they can be of any class and race combo you want. So, take advantage of that however you can. Do you have a citation for this? I was under the impression that they had to use NPC class levels. Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs.
RobbyPants 10-31-07, 02:41 PM	Well, if you have a "base of operations", they're always good for guarding and maintaining it. Obviously, you can't expect to bring them into a CR-appropriate battle and expect them to live. If you get some low-level casters, they might be good potion makers while you're off adventuring. Still, unless you're in a small town, you can probably find some at a store anyway...
Melpomene 10-31-07, 02:51 PM	The best use I'v found is when your character needs to do something really tricky (build a warmech, create an epic-level spell, perform at the royal opera) you can use them to "aid another", lending many handy bonuses to your check.
PhaedrusXY 10-31-07, 02:52 PM	Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-763024) is a (archived...) thread on how to optimize your followers.
bkdubs123 10-31-07, 02:59 PM	Well, there's the rub. Your cohort could be a decently powerful Wizard (or other arcane spellcaster) who transports items to you made by your horde of artificer and spellcaster followers. You'd never be low on smalltime potions, and when you really need something special done the Cohort can go back to Item Creation Station and get help from your drones (Huge Aid Another bonus).
Lokathor 10-31-07, 05:57 PM	Do you have a citation for this? I was under the impression that they had to use NPC class levels. 3.0 specifically stated that they had to be. 3.5 does not. "low level NPCs" doesn't mean of the NPC classes. But let's cite some rules: The character can lead up to the indicated number of characters of each level. Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs. Because they’re generally five or more levels behind the character they follow, they’re rarely effective in combat. Followers don’t earn experience and thus don’t gain levels. However, when a character with Leadership attains a new level, the player consults the table above to determine if she has acquired more followers, some of which may be higher level than the existing followers. (You don’t consult the table to see if your cohort gains levels, however, because cohorts earn experience on their own.) Emphasis mine. Ok, so to figure out the full rules on followers we look at cohorts. The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to the leader’s alignment on either the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, and the leader takes a Leadership penalty if he recruits a cohort of an alignment different from his own. Cohorts earn XP as follows: The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP. Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort). Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total. If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level. Important bits are underlined. So, let's put it all together. The Follower should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. A character can try to attract a Follower of a particular race, class, and alignment. ...They’re generally low-level NPCs. Followers don’t earn experience and thus don’t gain levels. From this, it seems clear that you can pick to have lots of warforged fighters or gnome illusionists, or whatever you fancy.
navar100 11-01-07, 01:10 AM	My DM uses Followers for roleplay background. They're NPCs who will always help you as they can, provide information you don't know (i.e. plot hooks), and run small errands you need done (not craft magic items) that you could do yourself but would take away game play time or be otherwise boring to roleplay. If you desire to be a Person of Importance - a baron, thieves guild master, mage school regent, etc., they're your base supporters. Spending the feat on Leadership makes it easier to become a Person of Important than without Leadership. The feat is the cost for NPCs to pay specific particular mind to you just for you being you. Your reputation gets to preceed you.
Sinfire Titan 11-01-07, 01:53 AM	Ritual Sacrifices. Best use ever.
Axiomatic_vampire 11-01-07, 06:30 AM	Read once some guy just set them up to be as good at gathering information as possible, and dispatched them to major taverns to collect news and drink themselves stupid. Seemed like a decent idea.
kuonji 11-01-07, 07:29 AM	Last time I had leadership we had a base of operations. So, I put together a couple of squads of guards with higher level commanders (higher being 2nd/3rd). My door guard for the storefront was a half-orc who we decided to level up as my leadership score went up, so by the end of the game he was 5th level I believe, made for an intimidating shoplifiting deterent. I eventually needed cooks/assistant cooks, a blacksmith for simple repair/maintenance, a healer and some assistants, a couple scribes, a stable manager, etc. I think I also had a 3rd level "expert" (lawyer) and a couple assistants for him as well; city kept complaining about laws and such. Plenty to do with some low level followers if you have the place to put them and the money for their upkeep. It was fun having them all a part of our storefront/headquarters and we could gloss over their upkeep as part of the store's operating cost. Just for reference, my character was a Bard and my cohort was a Marshall.
bloodtalon 11-01-07, 03:16 PM	the "EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK" has a optional rule for exceptional followers. page 37. basically you can get any class incuding prestige classes but they cost more levels they what they are.
Lokathor 11-01-07, 07:04 PM	the "EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK" has a optional rule for exceptional followers. page 37. basically you can get any class incuding prestige classes but they cost more levels they what they are. The Epic Level Handbook is also 3.0 material. You'll note that the 3.5 SRD has no such note in its version of Epic Leadership, because you can always have followers of any class.
Staple 11-01-07, 07:28 PM	Probably the most interesting use I've heard for followers is as follows. Gather all your level 1 followers around you. Every follower in this case is Commoner 1, though the race doesn't matter, though small races will work better. Once you have as many around you as you can fit, cast the spell Greater Consumptive Field, killing all of them (the save DC is a minimum DC 20, meaning if they roll less than a natural 20 they fail) and giving you a bonus to caster level equal to 1/2 your current caster level, and twice that bonus in strength. Follow it up with Blasphemy, and kill everything around you that isn't Evil. Unlike cohorts, having followers die doesn't strictly affect your leadership score, but pull that more than once and your DM will probably have something to say.
JulesCARV 11-01-07, 07:43 PM	Ideas for followers (assuming restriction to NPC classes with standard array): -The Sage -- Human or grey elf expert with 13 or 15 intelligence. Covers all of the knowledge skills your party doesn't already have (i.e., if you have a cleric with good knowledge (religion) and a sorcerer with good knowledge (arcana), your sage picks up the rest. -The Translator -- someone who knows every language except druidic. Once again, human or grey elf expert work well for this. May also have good Decipher Script -- with speak language in class and a high intelligence, even learning every language isn't likely to use up all skill points. -The Healer -- not a combat healer, but someone who can take care of the rest of your followers if they come down with a flu or the like if you have them organized in a community. Adept is good (although expert will do in a pinch). Human is good for the ability to take both skill focus (heal) and self-sufficient. With 4 ranks, +1 wis, +3 skill focus, and +2 self-sufficient, this guy has a +10 heal check without using a healing kit or casting guidance, so taking ten can beat pretty much every disease and most poisons. For more extreme circumstances, guidance and a healing kit can boost the modifier up to +13. -Guards -- basic warriors if you have your followers are organized in a community that needs defense while you're off adventuring. It'll deter raiders looking for a soft target, at least, even if it only means they attack the next town that's more poorly guarded instead. Then, of course, there are other things you might want, like barristers if you deal with the law a lot.
BW0222 11-02-07, 12:58 PM	Quidam, What are some of the more memorable uses you've seen followers put to? 1. Maintaining a stronghold, manor house, or base. It is nice to have maids, cooks, and low-level guards who are less likely to betray you. With magical protections and a few magical items they can put up reasonable defenses. 2. A crew for a ship. 3. A military unit. 4. Running a business. For example a smithy, a tavern, etc. 5. Running a church, guild, etc.. It is nice not to worry about day-to-day church services, etc. Having folks to help you with research, secure a place, deal with the commoners needs, etc. is useful. Wizards guild, fighters guild, thieves guild, group of forest 'rangers' to keep an eye on illegal logging for the druids circle, etc. 6. Spy network. Even low-level folks can get jobs as servants, keep an eye on various organizations, etc. and feed you information. 7. General helpers. If you take a wide variety of folks, you can end up with a group who can travel with you, do the mundane stuff, and help out. Taking care of animals while you head off, guard duty outside your inn rooms, minor healing to help the town out while you head off to kill the troll army, minor spells such as identify, perhaps making a few scrolls, etc. 8. Contacts. Take a variety of folks in say different positions and roles. An armors assistant, a mason, a cook, a lesser noble at court, a member of the city watch, etc. Need some armor looked at... done. Need access to an expert mason... you've got a friend who knows several. Need an audience with the mayor... you have a friend who can arrange it.
Lady_Dragon 11-02-07, 07:02 PM	One of PC's bought a sailing ship and used his followers to crew the thing.
CryoSilver 11-02-07, 08:01 PM	You can kill em and use the pile of bodies as a staircase.
Sinfire Titan 11-02-07, 10:07 PM	You can kill em and use the pile of bodies as a staircase. Sacrifice (BoVD)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Staircase. Because you get the staircase in the end.
Valerii 11-02-07, 11:14 PM	How does the Leadership feat and rules for a cohort synergise with a Familiar or a Special Mount? The DMG just says -2 from the leadship rating, and then nothing. Do I add character levels to the familiar or special mount as per normal for the modified leadership rating? Let's say for example I have a level 10 wizard and took the Leadership and Improved familiar feats. The character has enough charisma to give me a 8th level cohort. I want to make my mephit familiar into my cohort. What would the resulting cohort be like? My apologies for the hijack. I didn't want to start another Leadership thread with one already on the board.
happy_fuzzy 11-03-07, 11:55 AM	Get a bunch of human experts with perform (dance), dress them in tight neon spandex and make them the dance the robot= fun
Threefists 11-04-07, 01:14 AM	I'm not allowed to take Leadership anymore....I apparently break the game with my uses...so here they are! I believe this is a feat that allows units of archers to blanket a area with their ranged weapons, rather than just target a single enemy per archer...I'll try to find it, it was in a fairly recent Dragon mag (God I miss it already :weep: )....at higher levels when you've got a bazillion 1st levels wandering after you, having 40 or so 1st level Fighters with this protecting your home base makes life so much easier. How many players take ranks in Craft (Cooking) or (Tailoring)? Walking into town in the shreds of your gear will most likely impose a hefty penalty to most 'conversation' skills (unless you're the 19+ Cha Sorceress with the tripple D boobies), and having a decent meal at the end of the day makes life a little more bearable. Also handy for those instances where you are dealing with NPCs whom might turn their noses up at the trail rations you normally live on. A few with ranks in this makes life easier outside of combat. Depending upon how many followers you can have, have them divided as such: 3/6 Combatants (Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians), 1/6 Problem Solvers (Wizards, Experts with Knowledge skills, Trap-Springer Rogues), 2/6 Support Division (Experts with access to Craft skills such as Carpenter, Animal Handler, Healer, Blacksmith, Wainright, Cook etc). This ensures that your Combatants can offer moderate protection to your other followers, your Problem Solvers can give aid bonuses to any PCs of the same sort of character and offer advice that can save your bacon if your Party lacks such characters, and the Support Division handles all the mundane things, like wagon-wheels breaking, patching up the PCs/Followers after all healing magic has been expended and even setting up camp or keeping the home base in order. Personally, I'd try to spend a bit of gold from everyone's (PC's) pockets and buy yourselves one or two Grand Houses and build some Simple Houses yourselves. Spend some gold on farm animals and seed-stock, and start planting trees such as apple, pear or orange trees (or whatever fruit is most expensive in your game). Leave the bulk of the followers at the base, with the Combatants and what few spellcasters you have guarding your lodgings against minor foes (don't expect them to hold off a determined Ogre war-party, however!) while the rest of your Support Division handles the farming and crafting side of things and the Problem Solvers work on ensuring that you are well-connected to all the right people and have a decent library to research problems that might pop up down the track. Set aside 1/5th of your gold (and hopefully the others will pitch in too!) to keep the house-hold running smoothly, to facilitate selling goods, paying taxes and keeping the wheels greased in some cases. As time goes by, put up Wall of Stone or Wall of Force around the houses to keep normal enemies away and make the followers feel safer. And don't forget that people are attracted by heroes (and great whopping piles of gold!) and you should soon have more than just your followers working and living within this compound. Soon you'll be able to raise the flag of the Nation of Quidam (hey, it worked for me, hence why I am now no longer allowed to take Leadership!)
Pandaemoni 11-04-07, 01:49 AM	My favorite uses for them have both involved their *not* following me around, just working for me: (1) Assuming you (and they) are good, you can turn them into a sort of "neighborhood watch" to guard against threats like monsters and fires for the town or city you call home. They tell people that you set up their organization, you reap the reputational benefits. I'd recommend against having them interfere in the activities of organized crime, as that has negative reputational consequences. (2) My favorite (for games with a little intrigue) is to recruit followers with ranks in social skills and make it their mission to worm their way into local government and organizations that otherwise meets their class/skill set and that you figure it Or, if your DM allows it, you can recruit people already in those organizations, which is even better.) Having a network of reasonably well-placed spies can come in handy, even though it would take a while for them to be in a position to come back with more juicy stuff. Still when you get locked in the dungeon, it's nice to know you have a man working as a guard. It provides adventure hooks and the fun or roleplaying your position as spymaster.
DMaple 11-12-07, 09:21 AM	Important bits are underlined. So, let's put it all together. The Follower should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. Actually page 105 of the DMG under the section of followers. "Followers don't demand a share of the treasure, although they depend on the PC they follow to equip them and keep them fed." That could be interpreted to mean they have no equipment other than what you give them. Although personally I think that is overly unfair interpretation.
Lokathor 11-12-07, 01:33 PM	Drat, missed that. SRD has no such lines. No one in my group has a 3.5 DMG, so I never noticed the difference.
DMaple 11-13-07, 06:21 AM	The problem I see with that is if you literally have to by the clothes on their backs, you are very quickly going to end up completely broke from just a few low level followers. As you advance in level lots of destitute naked higher level followers will show up at your door, which just doesn't seem right either. For example when you go from leadership 16 to 17 a 4th level naked Fighter, a 2nd level naked wizard and his five 1st level naked warrior mates show up at your camp demanding food, clothes and equipment? But if you give them the equipment of full NPC's gear (900gp at 1st level) to every one that seems a little much in many cases. Why would a 1st level commoner carpenter have 900gp? I think it's best to negotiate with your DM.
Beckettvampire 11-14-07, 01:40 AM	I remember in an epic game I played in, there was a Epic Red Wizard that used his followers, not cohort, as his rune circle, or something to that effect. Basically, they sacrificed many of their spells per day to allow him to add many metamagic feats to spells at no level cost. I don't remember the specifics, but I believe that he chose a certain number of spells per feat, and each time he cast those spells, the feat was added automatically. In a later incarnation of that game, I had literally thousands of followers. I made it a point to treat them all very well, including personally training those who had potential for certain things, feeding and sheltering them and their families, giving them a means to earn their own way, and even on occasion giving them a cut of my treasure. I'd even give them magical items as special prizes for things, I wanted an army of 1st level warriors with +4 swords and stuff). Most importantly, I gave some of them a necklace with a weird symbol on it, and said that if there ever came a time when they where truely in trouble, life or death, and there was no escape, to pray for help on the symbol and say a word (my real name) and something would save them. I was planning on having them worship me by their own choice and when there was enough of them and I'd done enough epic deeds, I'd spontaniously ascend to deityhood and overthrow Mystra as the new lord of magic. Unfortunatly, the game desolved when people moved on and such, but when my DM caught on to what I was planning, he was very not happy.
celestialkin 11-14-07, 04:47 PM	This thread has been very helpful to me. Thanks for the information guys, and thanks for starting this thread OP. Just one question, I understand level 1 followers are useful for crafting low-level magic items (such as cure light wounds potions), but since they are right at level 1 wouldn't the XP cost (1/25 of the base price) force them to go back a level? I believe it is impossible to be forced to level 0, so I am not sure how this would affect their ability to craft items and to pay XP they do not seem to have. In a later incarnation of that game, I had literally thousands of followers. I made it a point to treat them all very well, including personally training those who had potential for certain things, feeding and sheltering them and their families, giving them a means to earn their own way, and even on occasion giving them a cut of my treasure. I'd even give them magical items as special prizes for things, I wanted an army of 1st level warriors with +4 swords and stuff). Most importantly, I gave some of them a necklace with a weird symbol on it, and said that if there ever came a time when they where truely in trouble, life or death, and there was no escape, to pray for help on the symbol and say a word (my real name) and something would save them. I was planning on having them worship me by their own choice and when there was enough of them and I'd done enough epic deeds, I'd spontaniously ascend to deityhood and overthrow Mystra as the new lord of magic. Unfortunatly, the game desolved when people moved on and such, but when my DM caught on to what I was planning, he was very not happy. Oh that is an awesome plan, and a great use of followers. It's so ambitious I feel disappointed for not thinking of it myself. :D The best I could think up for my soon-to-be character was to have his followers serve as his loyal clergy, or "disciples". I would have them all be either low-level adepts, clerics, or divine minds who would go around from town to town offering their healing services free of charge to all who ask them. While they heal the needy and make friends of the whole community they would begin to talk and preach about their "Great Divine Master on his quest to ascension". Whenever they find people who show interest in their "faith" they would try to convert them. They would preach that by supporting and worshiping a future deity on it's way to godhood they would be greatly rewarded after his ascension. They would give examples of other mortals who managed to ascend to godhood as proof that their master would succeed. Meanwhile my character would be hunting for the pieces of The Rod of Law to wish for godhood/Rank 0.
celestialkin 11-14-07, 05:59 PM	How do you all keep track of the horde of followers you get? Making up a whole character sheet (rolling stats, assigning skills/feats, assigning equipment, etc.) for each follower is very time consuming. Just putting together 6 of them in addition to my character and his cohort took forever, so having to do 50-1000+ must be insane. Not to mention all the character sheets take up a lot of space, and they end up costing you a bit in paper and printing. So far my current character has six followers, and it is already a pain having to carry around all those sheets + my character's sheet + my cohort's sheet. Even just twenty character sheets 10¢ a page is expensive for a broke college student. :(
PhaedrusXY 11-14-07, 06:24 PM	There are good character sheets online for free. Why are you paying 10c per page? I am sure they don't have character sheets for each of their horde of followers. At best, they might have one sheet for each kind of follower (i.e. 100 level 1 rangers, all the same, etc). I would bet most might not even have that much.
Undrhil 11-14-07, 10:04 PM	The problem I see with that is if you literally have to by the clothes on their backs, you are very quickly going to end up completely broke from just a few low level followers. As you advance in level lots of destitute naked higher level followers will show up at your door, which just doesn't seem right either. For example when you go from leadership 16 to 17 a 4th level naked Fighter, a 2nd level naked wizard and his five 1st level naked warrior mates show up at your camp demanding food, clothes and equipment? But if you give them the equipment of full NPC's gear (900gp at 1st level) to every one that seems a little much in many cases. Why would a 1st level commoner carpenter have 900gp? I think it's best to negotiate with your DM. I would think that since the DM actually handles the fact that your followers show up in the first place, you could talk to the DM and see if the followers can arrive in staggared groups or one at a time. This way, you only have to equip one at a time. Also, you don't have to give them the absolute best equipment you can afford. Give them what you had at their level. Wait ... no ... give them what the DMG and PH says they should have if they were PCs of their level. And, in all honesty, you don't even have to give them that. They came to you, just give them some leather armor and a longsword until they *earn* something more.
Undrhil 11-14-07, 10:07 PM	There are good character sheets online for free. Why are you paying 10c per page? Sounds like standard college library copier fee to me. :)
Beckettvampire 11-15-07, 12:02 AM	Whenever they find people who show interest in their "faith" they would try to convert them. They would preach that by supporting and worshiping a future deity on it's way to godhood they would be greatly rewarded after his ascension. They would give examples of other mortals who managed to ascend to godhood as proof that their master would succeed. Meanwhile my character would be hunting for the pieces of The Rod of Law to wish for godhood/Rank 0. That was my basic plan, but I didn't want them to know the future deity was in fact me. I was their benefactor, and I really was. I didn't look at it selfishly, but as a byproduct of us helping each other. I even developed an epic spell that linked me to each and every necklace I created so that when my name was spoken over while rubbing the symbol, I'd recieve a Message like spell.
DMaple 11-15-07, 04:22 AM	give them what the DMG and PH says they should have if they were PCs of their level. So for example 16-17 change in leadership a 4th level 3,300gp a 2nd level 2,000gp five 1st level 900gp x5 = 4500gp Total 9,800gp when you level up. That's a whole heap of cash. 21-22 is worse although admittedly you hopefully have more cash by then. (900x15)+2000+2500,+4300 = 22,300. I'm thinking of getting the feat at 9 level, I've +3 Cha modifier and a base of operations for +2, and +1 for fairness. So leadership 15. Thats (900x20)+(2000x2)+2500 = 24500 gp to equip them, when I should only have 36,000gp myself. Which would leave me 11,500gp for personal equipment? Yeah that balances out. :rolleyes:
DMaple 11-15-07, 04:33 AM	How do you all keep track of the horde of followers you get? Making up a whole character sheet (rolling stats, assigning skills/feats, assigning equipment, etc.) for each follower is very time consuming. First off for followers I never roll stats, for ones with character levels I use the elite array modified by racial modifiers. So 15,14,13,12,10,8 or for followers with only NPC levels I use the non-elite array 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Second I don't do character sheets, just stat blocks after all they can never gain any XP so they will always have the same stats. For the same reason I don't allow followers to craft anything that requires XP, they don't earn any so they can't spend any, cohorts are another matter. Followers can still make stuff like Holy Water, Masterwork and Alchemical stuff though. Third a lot of followers will have exactly the same stats if they do the same job. For example, I have Footsoliders and Longbowmen as two standard types (we are playing Red Hand of Doom). The footsoliders all have chain-shirts, mw shortswords and are 1st level human fighters with the 15 in Str. They have the feats Phalanax Fighting, WF: Shortsword and Toughness. The longbowmen all have Dex 15, studded leather, mw composite longbows (Str+1), Point Blank shot, Precise shot and co-ordinated shot. You get about two stat blocks to a page. Finally Cooks, Carpenters, and non-combatants don't even get a stat block, they just get their role and the relevant skills Craft (woodwork) +9 (Int +2, Skill Focus +3, 4 ranks at first level). So you can get loads of them to a page. Just putting together 6 of them in addition to my character and his cohort took forever, so having to do 50-1000+ must be insane. You never get a thousand. Maximum Leadership is 25 so 135 - 1st 13 - 2nd 7 - 3rd 4 - 4th 2 - 5th 2 - 6th There is a feat in Heroes of Battle that doubles your 1st level followers so at most you'll have 298. I'll email you my examples if you like.
celestialkin 11-15-07, 12:10 PM	Thank you all for the advice, and for answering my questions. Special thanks to DMaple for explaining your methods to me. It will help me out a lot, since I seem to really enjoy using the leadership feat. Finally Cooks, Carpenters, and non-combatants don't even get a stat block, they just get their role and the relevant skills Craft (woodwork) +9 (Int +2, Skill Focus +3, 4 ranks at first level). So you can get loads of them to a page. That really makes things simple. However, can you please explain how you calculated the Int +2? First off for followers I never roll stats, for ones with character levels I use the elite array modified by racial modifiers. So 15,14,13,12,10,8 or for followers with only NPC levels I use the non-elite array 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Can you please tell me where I can find these elite arrays and non-elite arrays?[/QUOTE] I'll email you my examples if you like. I would appreciate that. :)
DMaple 11-15-07, 01:20 PM	That really makes things simple. However, can you please explain how you calculated the Int +2? Doh! It's normally +1 from Int, for a NPC Class using the non-elite array, putting the 13 in the most useful stat. +2 for the Elite array, if they have PC levels. Can you please tell me where I can find these elite arrays and non-elite arrays? The Elite Array is mentioned in the DMG page 169 it's what they use for the sample NPCs in the book. Both are in the Monster Manual (I don't have a page reference, but it's near the back on Improving Monsters). But both are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm). I would appreciate that. :) Will do.
Quidam 11-15-07, 02:12 PM	First off for followers I never roll stats, for ones with character levels I use the elite array modified by racial modifiers. So 15,14,13,12,10,8 or for followers with only NPC levels I use the non-elite array 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Why, if your followers can have PC class levels, do you give your followers NPC class levels? Especially considering the difference between the elite array and the non-elite array.
DMaple 11-15-07, 02:56 PM	Because it doesn't seem logical for me that a Cook or a Carpenter or similar profession would have a PC class level. Combatants on the other hand are made of stronger stuff. I suppose you could have all your followers as PC levels but it just doesn't feel right to me. Also if I don't stat them up as a combatant, then the DM is less likely to put them in harms way. :D
Undrhil 11-16-07, 03:02 AM	[QUOTE=DMaple;14338453] :: Snipped, cause I'm not going to have all of that in my post and have someone tell me I should trim my posts :: [QUOTE] How about you read the *rest* of my post. You don't even have to give them the best stuff available. You *could* give them just leather armor and a longsword until they proved worthy of upgraded equipment. They came to you. You didn't beg them to serve you, they came willingly. Therefore, you are not obligated in any way to give them more than is necessary for them to function in the jobs which they have. Think about it as you are en employer, seeking employees. Now, I don't know about your job, but my job doesn't give me a super-fast computer and the absolutely latest vehicle to drive. That wouldn't be very conducive for the flow of money into the coffers, so to speak. But, if I perform in my work better than average or better than my fellow employees, then when it comes time for the company to start spending excess cash, I might find myself driving the newer vehicle bought or using the newest PC on-hand. I don't see the problem with using this approach for followers.
DMaple 11-16-07, 06:06 AM	I don't see the problem with using this approach for followers. The problem I see is why would so many higher level (2nd to 6th level) people turn up completely destitute? Surely to have survived and gained enough experience to be that level they would have some equipment of their own?
DMaple 11-16-07, 06:11 AM	Oh another thing I do, that isn't official but I got approved by my DM. While followers never gain XP, when you gain a new follower of a higher level, instead of it being a completely new follower I advance a follower from a lower level. So for example the Captain of the Watch might start as a 2nd level Fighter when my Leadership score is 13 or 14, but when my leadership changes to 15 he becomes a 3rd level fighter and I might gain a 2nd level Wizard to take the old 2nd level position. Of course I could keep him at 2nd level and bring in a 3rd level Wizard, as would be normal.
ScottTheGR81 11-16-07, 08:53 AM	You never get a thousand. Maximum Leadership is 25 so 135 - 1st 13 - 2nd 7 - 3rd 4 - 4th 2 - 5th 2 - 6th In my game we use the epic progression if your leadership score is high enough so you still gain more followers, though the limits on your cohort level still apply.
egodefluo 11-16-07, 07:49 PM	Why, if your followers can have PC class levels, do you give your followers NPC class levels? Especially considering the difference between the elite array and the non-elite array. Would NPC class levels count as non-associated levels for followers? (E.G. a 1st level follower could have 1 lvl in a pc class or 2 lvls in an NPC class)
aBhorTioN 11-16-07, 08:42 PM	My barbarian used his bard followers to herald the opening of the newly opened arena in the north, and basicly distributed the rest to run accounts and business matters. Also, alot of bouncers in the taverns of his town. Torlov just wanted to own his own arena, and have a barbarian horde.
Venshad 12-14-07, 03:56 PM	Hi! Since last year I had an idea of making a kind of Templar Order with my Paladin. Now I can make it, but have some tough arguments with my DM... My typical follower is something like this: Human Fighter level 1 STR 15, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 10, WIZ 12, CHR 08 HP: 12 AC: 10 + 1 + 3 (Studded Leather) + 2 (Hv Wooden Shield) + 1 = 17 (21 in Phalanx) (23 Fighting Def.) (25 Total Def) FORT 4, REF 1 (2), WILL 1 FEATS: Shield Wall, Block Arrow, Phalanx Fighting Attack 1: +3 Shortsword (1d6 + 2 Critc. 19-20/x2) Attack 2: +2 Javelin (1d6 + 2 Critc. 20/x2) 30 feet All my followers are something like Roman Legionaries, fighting in tight formations. My use of them is purely roleplaying, as I have no intention in taking them to the local dungeon. My plan include making Border Towers and collect taxes from roads I protect, until I am something like a King! My main problem is that my DM wants me to take all feats I wish my followers to have... that's insane... He says that followers are selected randomly by him, and that I can't choose which one I'll accept as a follower. Is this right? (Ok, I now his the DM, but is it RAW?)
Serge_P 12-14-07, 04:50 PM	Well, I'm going to play as a strongheart halfling (Myrmidon Krom) with leadership and extra follower feat, and my version of the orc warlord PRC for halflings (Strongheart Warmaster (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=965923)). At epic level when he has his own nation and the 10x followers feat, he will at Ld-level 40 get 40000 lvl1 followers and an additional 4000 lvl1 followers at every LD-level (And don't forget the higher level followers). He will have a small country with a huge raiding barbarian tribe, and a lot of daemon-summoning conjurers. And a Warmage academy. (His cohort and maybe future wife is a divinator//warmage). They will all worship him (Krom) and his imaginary weather-gods (The four winds). Think of hordes of Chaos from Warhammer, with marauder hordes and chosen knights and chaos warriors and all, but with half the heigh. So best use: Own country with an all conquering army.
Breetai 12-14-07, 04:57 PM	Is it just me or is leadership used more often as a feat to add a second set of full round of actions or as it was intended to remove the XP penalty of someone who would otherwise recruit NPC's in the group? Just thinking out loud. (Sry it's off topic I'm getting flustered with my group.)
Venshad 12-15-07, 07:47 AM	Is it just me or is leadership used more often as a feat to add a second set of full round of actions or as it was intended to remove the XP penalty of someone who would otherwise recruit NPC's in the group? Just thinking out loud. (Sry it's off topic I'm getting flustered with my group.) Maybe, but Leadership is both great at customizing and Roleplaying, because it gives you a many great possibilities to enhance your PC and the overall effectiveness of your group, which in turn adds to playability and fun.
DMaple 12-15-07, 04:51 PM	Is it just me or is leadership used more often as a feat to add a second set of full round of actions or as it was intended to remove the XP penalty of someone who would otherwise recruit NPC's in the group? I know a number of DM's ban it for that reason. And for the fact if everyone took it the party would be twice the size (before you even think of the followers, animal companions and familiars). It is certainly open for abuse, and much less easy to administer than something like Dodge or Spell Focus. But these are still NPCs so if the players abuse them, the DM is well within his rights to have then wander off, or be less helpful. It does give a player a chance to be more involved with the campaign world so that's why I always recommend negotiation with your DM if you are thinking of this feat.
Grizzled Gryphon 12-15-07, 08:10 PM	Have all of the followers be wizards or sorcerers that know magic Missile. One hundred first level magic missiles = a bad day for just about anything!!:P Venshad, those tight formations are really fun when the enemy has fun things like breath weapons or area affect spells. Good way to get rid of all that dead weight low level followers are.
Bludvayne 12-16-07, 10:32 AM	In one campaign we have established a small, but growing, pirate fleet known as Bone Brigade. Our followers are our crew.
CandleZ792 12-16-07, 04:51 PM	You never get a thousand. Maximum Leadership is 25 so 135 - 1st 13 - 2nd 7 - 3rd 4 - 4th 2 - 5th 2 - 6th You haven't heard of epic feats have you? Epic Leadership allows your leadership score to continue to rise, and Legendary Commander gives you 10x the amount of followers at each level.
Bloodsoul 12-16-07, 08:10 PM	And then Extra Followers from Heroes of Battle for double that amount.. "And in the frozen lands of Nador they were forced to eat Robin's minstrels. And there was much rejoicing."
Demon_Paladin 12-16-07, 08:35 PM	Having a crapload of minions to boss around is great. As far as what to actually do with them? I think this sums it up nicely. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html
Grizzled Gryphon 12-17-07, 10:21 AM	:heehee That is why being a Thrallherd is even better!! Not only can you do this, you get free replacements!!
Venshad 12-17-07, 11:29 AM	Venshad, those tight formations are really fun when the enemy has fun things like breath weapons or area affect spells. Good way to get rid of all that dead weight low level followers are. Yeah, it is. I like to imagine being the dominant power in the land, so when hordes of orcs come, I can send my followers to beat them. If you consider a clash between level 1 NPCs, mine are really good! Even against orcs!