Post/Author/DateTime	Post
YamiShinobi 12-26-07, 05:07 PM	Wise dodge Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Wisdom bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take graceful cunning or sylvan grace Graceful cunning Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Intellegence bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take wise dodge or sylvan grace Sylvan Grace Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Charisma bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take wise dodge or graceful cunning Uncanny Dodge benefit, a character retains thier dexteirty bonus to ac, even when flat footed special, if a character with this feat gained uncanny dodge as a class feature. it instead becomes improved uncanny dodge Sneak attack benefit, the first time this feat is taken, add 2d6 to the character's sneak attack dice, every time it's taken after that, add +1d6 not +2d6 ( 2+1+1+1, not 2+3+4) special, a character can take this feat multiple times, it's effects stack Revised weapon finesse Benefit, a character adds thier dexterity modifier instead of thier strength modifier for attack and damage rolls with the following weapons, all light weapons, plus the rapier, longsword, bastard sword, whip, net, shuriken, scimitar, chain, and spiked chain special (if you use this feat, it replaces weapon finesse and extra finesse for it combines the two) Bonus Daily spells Prerquisite: ability to cast arcane or divine spells Benefit, a character gains 2 additional spells per day of every spell level of one of thier spellcasting classes (cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, etc), if a character cannot get extra slots of higher level spells due to level, they get them when they can cast the new spells of the new spell level, every time this is taken afterwards for the same spellcasting class, add 1 additional spell slot of each castable level (instead of the 2 for the first time of that spellcasting class) special: a character can take this feat mutliple times it's effects stack Elephant's Memory Prerquisite: wizard level 3rd or higher Benefit: a wizard can now prepare all thier spells from memory, they need not take a spellbook, all they need do is gain a level or read a spellbook, to memorize a new spell. they can cast all the spells they have read spontaneously Extra Spell known prerequisite: sorcerer level 3rd or higher benefit, a sorcerer with this feat learns an additional spell of each castable level, if they cannot cast a specific spell level due to lack of the level to cast it, they gain it when they can actually cast spells of that level, this is for thier spells known, these spells may be from any arcane or divine list special: a character can take this feat mutliple times, it's effects stack
Kouk 12-26-07, 11:36 PM	Wise dodge Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Wisdom bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take graceful cunning or sylvan grace Graceful cunning Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Intellegence bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take wise dodge or sylvan grace Sylvan Grace Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Charisma bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take wise dodge or graceful cunning Uncanny Dodge benefit, a character retains thier dexteirty bonus to ac, even when flat footed special, if a character with this feat gained uncanny dodge as a class feature. it instead becomes improved uncanny dodge Sneak attack benefit, the first time this feat is taken, add 2d6 to the character's sneak attack dice, every time it's taken after that, add +1d6 not +2d6 ( 2+1+1+1, not 2+3+4) special, a character can take this feat multiple times, it's effects stack You are making feats that are the same as class abilities basically. Feats are supposed to be weaker than class abilities. Revised weapon finesse Benefit, a character adds thier dexterity modifier instead of thier strength modifier for attack and damage rolls with the following weapons, all light weapons, plus the rapier, longsword, bastard sword, whip, net, shuriken, scimitar, chain, and spiked chain special (if you use this feat, it replaces weapon finesse and extra finesse for it combines the two) What is "extra finesse?" This is a stronger version of Weapon Finesse. Works on more melee weapons and also on light ranged weapons (daggers, throwing axes and hammers, shuriken). Normally if you want to use more powerful weapons with Weapon Finesse, you would take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and use different weapons, like the Elven Court Blade. I'm not sure I follow the logic on why a Bastard Sword and Long Sword count as "Finesseable". Shuriken are ranged weapons to begin with. Nets already require a ranged attack roll, and deal no damage so they gain nothing at all from this. I am not sure if this is extremely "overpowered" but it almost completely levels the playing field for STR vs DEX fighters. It seems to me that this should only work for melee weapons and not ranged attacks like Shuriken. Keeping Dex as attack only and not damage was to balance the fact that Dex also boost your AC, and your Reflex Saving Throws, I'm not sure one feat is enough to make it equal to Str and counter the other benefits of Dex. Bonus Daily spells Prerquisite: ability to cast arcane or divine spells Benefit, a character gains 2 additional spells per day of every spell level of one of thier spellcasting classes (cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, etc), if a character cannot get extra slots of higher level spells due to level, they get them when they can cast the new spells of the new spell level, every time this is taken afterwards for the same spellcasting class, add 1 additional spell slot of each castable level (instead of the 2 for the first time of that spellcasting class) special: a character can take this feat mutliple times it's effects stack This is extremely overpowered. There is already a feat that adds a single spell per specific spellcasting level (Extra Slot), and a "Regional" feat in the Forgotten Realms which may at best give you an extra single spell each level, but just that once. Elephant's Memory Prerquisite: wizard level 3rd or higher Benefit: a wizard can now prepare all thier spells from memory, they need not take a spellbook, all they need do is gain a level or read a spellbook, to memorize a new spell. they can cast all the spells they have read spontaneously This effectively nullifies the Sorcerer class. There are already ways to cast several spells spontaneously for a Wizard, but it takes a significant investment in feats or classes. I'm not sure I understand how Wizards would then gain spells? Like a Sorcerer does currently? Extra Spell known prerequisite: sorcerer level 3rd or higher benefit, a sorcerer with this feat learns an additional spell of each castable level, if they cannot cast a specific spell level due to lack of the level to cast it, they gain it when they can actually cast spells of that level, this is for thier spells known, these spells may be from any arcane or divine list special: a character can take this feat mutliple times, it's effects stack This is also overpowered, considering there is the feat Extra Spell which does the same thing but for only a single spell of a single level. Only the first three feats here have anything to do with being "unarmored"?
Bahumut 12-27-07, 12:03 AM	besides the notes of the last poster, which are spot on, here's my qualms about these feats... the first three feats grant a slightly wonky version of the Monk's AC Bonus, being pulled from whatever the characters highest mental stat is, and work while wearing light armor. every character, and i mean EVERY CHARACTER that wears light armor will take one of these feats. hell, i would NEVER make a heavy armor fighter ever again. im not even going to touch the wierd prereqs. sorry to burst your bubble, but these are STRONG ie broken feats.
YamiShinobi 12-27-07, 01:51 AM	besides the notes of the last poster, which are spot on, here's my qualms about these feats... the first three feats grant a slightly wonky version of the Monk's AC Bonus, being pulled from whatever the characters highest mental stat is, and work while wearing light armor. every character, and i mean EVERY CHARACTER that wears light armor will take one of these feats. hell, i would NEVER make a heavy armor fighter ever again. im not even going to touch the wierd prereqs. sorry to burst your bubble, but these are STRONG ie broken feats. feats are a lot rarer than class features, you have less feats to mess with than class features, last i checked, since a feat is rarer than a class feature, should it be worth at least something equal. yes i make overpowered feats, but that is due to the rarity of feats, these were intended for rogues, wizards and sorcerers (who don't get much AC anyway, give the unarmored a figthing chance, i threw in spell related feats for the wizard and sorcerer. in my opinion, a feat should be giving a lot more than a class feature, fighter was not on the class list of eligible feats. if a fighter took these, they would be very M.A.D. a monk already has this, so does a ninja. every class is M.A.D. except the fighter. (good strength and constitution, D.A.D. dual attribute dependancy), this does not make a wizard a tank, your talking about a lost feat to add your casting stat to ac. A feat, how often do you get a Feat? EVERY 3 LEVELS!!!!!!! How many spell slots does a caster get? FRIGGIN NOT ENOUGH!!!!!!! How many class features can a character get? EVERY LEVEL EXCEPT A FEW!!!!!!! if you want feats to be weaker than class features, then do this!!!! GIVE 5 FEATS PER LEVEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! why? IT TAKES AT LEAST 5-10 FEATS TO EQUAL A CLASS FEATURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what do feats give you now? DIDDLY SQUAT!!!!! what do these feats give? SOMETHING WORTH TAKING!!!! should the feat system be on a more powerful scale? YES IT FREAKING SHOULD!!!!!!!! are any worth the 3 level wait? NOT, UNLESS YOU PLAN TO PRC YEARS AFTER YOU REALIZE HOW WEAK THE FEATS ARE?
Kouk 12-27-07, 02:58 AM	When I said that the feats were stronger than class abilities, I didn't mean by just a little bit. Casters don't get enough spell slots? Maybe at levels 1-7. After that, I don't think it is possible to use all your spell slots in a single day. Fighters are really the weakest base class out there, with Monks being arguable. If feats were more powerful than class abilities, then Fighters would be the strongest, but they are not. Would casters like more spell slots? Sure. Would Fighters like even more feats and hit points? Who wouldn't? The limitation on spells per day is because spells are very powerful compared to those things which are not limited, such as Tumbling and iterative attacks. Now, I am not saying that when you get a level up that gives you +1 to your dodge bonus vs traps that is a class ability. That is just making your class ability a bit stronger. Evasion is a class ability, Uncanny Dodge is a class ability, a Familiar is a class ability. I would also say that class abilities are not terribly common for the Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer or Wizard, unless you count spells and feats, in which case they are very prevalent, if dull. Class abilities are there to differentiate one class from another. What is the difference between a Monk and a Cleric/Fighter who takes the feat? What is the difference between a Rogue and a Ranger that takes the Sneak Attack feat? Not a tremendous amount really, which is fine if that is what you want for your game. Another thing to consider is that these feats are miles above existing feats, so you can't really stop at these, you have to overhaul the whole system to accommodate them. And these also leave out many supplemental base classes since you called out who qualifies by name. Enemies should have access to these too, so that adds the same thing right back against the players. It is actually not hard at all to get a good AC, almost regardless of your class, as long as you put some effort and money into it. The actual "physical" armor is always at a fixed 8 points max (sticking with core Full Plate). All the rest is just money, feats, and magic. A Rogue with a decent Dex, some magical armor, a magic mithral buckler (no check penalty so no problem), a ring of deflection, amulet of natural armor, gloves of (more) Dex, and you already have a pretty high AC. Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise... just adds more. Even better, you can get a Cloak of Displacement. 4th edition will basically remove the concept of "spells per day" and make efforts to have all classes "balanced" amongst each other, so you will probably like that when it comes out. You might also consider the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords, which has a lot of options which never really "run out" in a day. EDIT: Consider this variant from Unearthed Arcana if you would like a game that blurs the line between classes more: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm
LSMFT 12-27-07, 10:20 AM	Wise dodge Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Wisdom bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take graceful cunning or sylvan grace. Graceful cunning Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Intellegence bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take wise dodge or sylvan grace Sylvan Grace Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Charisma bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take wise dodge or graceful cunning.So, I take the druids, wizards and clerics and make them more powerful by giving them the monk's class feature, but tailored to meet their individual stats, and I can still wear light armor. No way in hell would I allow a feat like any of these. :) Uncanny Dodge benefit, a character retains thier dexteirty bonus to ac, even when flat footed special, if a character with this feat gained uncanny dodge as a class feature. it instead becomes improved uncanny dodgeWell, no. This is a very powerful class ability. Why should anyone get to take it? Sneak attack benefit, the first time this feat is taken, add 2d6 to the character's sneak attack dice, every time it's taken after that, add +1d6 not +2d6 ( 2+1+1+1, not 2+3+4) special, a character can take this feat multiple times, it's effects stackThis is already a feat: and it is epic. I really shouldn't say that. Yours drops the prerequisites. :( Revised weapon finesse Benefit, a character adds thier dexterity modifier instead of thier strength modifier for attack and damage rolls with the following weapons, all light weapons, plus the rapier, longsword, bastard sword, whip, net, shuriken, scimitar, chain, and spiked chain special (if you use this feat, it replaces weapon finesse and extra finesse for it combines the two)So, you're just making the core feat far, far, far more powerful here? No. Bonus Daily spells Prerquisite: ability to cast arcane or divine spells Benefit, a character gains 2 additional spells per day of every spell level of one of thier spellcasting classes (cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, etc), if a character cannot get extra slots of higher level spells due to level, they get them when they can cast the new spells of the new spell level, every time this is taken afterwards for the same spellcasting class, add 1 additional spell slot of each castable level (instead of the 2 for the first time of that spellcasting class) special: a character can take this feat mutliple times it's effects stackNo I feel like a fool for even reading this much. We aren't playing the same game. Elephant's Memory Prerquisite: wizard level 3rd or higher Benefit: a wizard can now prepare all thier spells from memory, they need not take a spellbook, all they need do is gain a level or read a spellbook, to memorize a new spell. they can cast all the spells they have read spontaneously:rofl: Sorry, I'm laughing so I won't cry. Extra Spell known prerequisite: sorcerer level 3rd or higher benefit, a sorcerer with this feat learns an additional spell of each castable level, if they cannot cast a specific spell level due to lack of the level to cast it, they gain it when they can actually cast spells of that level, this is for thier spells known, these spells may be from any arcane or divine list special: a character can take this feat mutliple times, it's effects stackSo, it's like the feat Extra Spell, only more powerful. A lot more. I have to be honest with you. I think I play a pretty middle of the road game powerwise. I'm sure some would consider it high powered. I have seen and participated in "insanely high-powered games." But I can't even imagine a game where these feats would be allowed.
RobbyPants 12-27-07, 12:12 PM	<snip> should the feat system be on a more powerful scale? YES IT FREAKING SHOULD!!!!!!!! No it shouldn't. The whole point is that class abilities and feats are entirely different things. They are not meant to be equatable or swapable. This is the same reason you can't use skill points to purchase feats, or gold to purchase class abilities, or spell slots to purchase skills, or any other combination of the above. They are all entirely separate mechanics that give wierd (usually overpowered) results if you mix them. One general question to ask regarding your feats: if you were to create them as-is, would you ever create a caster without one of those feats? If the answer is no, then that's a good indicator that your feat is overpowered. While it isn't the indicator, it certainly sets up a warning flag. What I'd recomend is coming up with some alternate class features for various light/no armored classes to do similar things. I posted a swashbuckler variant one time that would sacrifice the Dodge bonus in exchange for an Int bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor. The catch was you couldn't gain a bonus greater than your swashbuckler class level, preventing wizards and the like from dipping in one level. It was well received. Perhaps you could base some things off of this, but not in the casting classes themselves.
YamiShinobi 12-27-07, 02:31 PM	No it shouldn't. The whole point is that class abilities and feats are entirely different things. They are not meant to be equatable or swapable. This is the same reason you can't use skill points to purchase feats, or gold to purchase class abilities, or spell slots to purchase skills, or any other combination of the above. They are all entirely separate mechanics that give wierd (usually overpowered) results if you mix them. One general question to ask regarding your feats: if you were to create them as-is, would you ever create a caster without one of those feats? If the answer is no, then that's a good indicator that your feat is overpowered. While it isn't the indicator, it certainly sets up a warning flag. What I'd recomend is coming up with some alternate class features for various light/no armored classes to do similar things. I posted a swashbuckler variant one time that would sacrifice the Dodge bonus in exchange for an Int bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor. The catch was you couldn't gain a bonus greater than your swashbuckler class level, preventing wizards and the like from dipping in one level. It was well received. Perhaps you could base some things off of this, but not in the casting classes themselves. just trying to find a way to save the lives of several pitifully weak characters that can be 2 hitted by a single kobold. yes i would play a eternally 13 year old human female rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster with the int to ac, the revised weapon finesse, the extra spells known and the bonus daily spells, and be glad that i can cast a little more, have a little more versatility and never need a strength score, heck i would also throw in agile athelete. run around with a +(5, insert keen edge, shocking burst and flaming burst for +10) rapier backstabbing like crazy, i'd also take the sneak attack feat. heck, practiced spellcaster on top of hat. i would also throw in eschew materials. in epic levels, i would choose ignore material components. heck, throw in improved critical for 10-20x2 (18-20 beomes 15-20 15-20 becomes 10-20), heck the feat for sneak attack damage on a critical would be nice too. yippie a guaranteed critical with guaranteed sneak attack damage, double a 2d10, +dexterity modifier, as armor, a crazily boosted mithral chain shirt. (+10 in epic) uber gloves of dexterity, uber headband of intellect, uber charisma enhancement of some sort, +5 inherent bonus in each of these 3. basically the loli rogue that nobody wants to fight because she'll kill you with her uber weapon complimented by her uber scores (4 18's a 17 and a 16) that there is a munchkin's dream. asssuming she gets there. this is indeed a tangent for uber chars.
Bahumut 12-27-07, 06:03 PM	just trying to find a way to save the lives of several pitifully weak characters that can be 2 hitted by a single kobold. yes i would play a eternally 13 year old human female rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster with the int to ac, the revised weapon finesse, the extra spells known and the bonus daily spells, and be glad that i can cast a little more, have a little more versatility and never need a strength score, heck i would also throw in agile athelete. run around with a +(5, insert keen edge, shocking burst and flaming burst for +10) rapier backstabbing like crazy, i'd also take the sneak attack feat. heck, practiced spellcaster on top of hat. i would also throw in eschew materials. in epic levels, i would choose ignore material components. heck, throw in improved critical for 10-20x2 (18-20 beomes 15-20 15-20 becomes 10-20), heck the feat for sneak attack damage on a critical would be nice too. yippie a guaranteed critical with guaranteed sneak attack damage, double a 2d10, +dexterity modifier, as armor, a crazily boosted mithral chain shirt. (+10 in epic) uber gloves of dexterity, uber headband of intellect, uber charisma enhancement of some sort, +5 inherent bonus in each of these 3. basically the loli rogue that nobody wants to fight because she'll kill you with her uber weapon complimented by her uber scores (4 18's a 17 and a 16) that there is a munchkin's dream. asssuming she gets there. this is indeed a tangent for uber chars. ...wow. im not exactly sure WHAT that was, but it was like a seizure set to D&D. in the end, it comes down to balance of offense and defense. the reason why the fighters get better AC with their heavy armor compared to a wizards robes is because the wizard can shoot flaming death out of their hands, fly around the room, summon creatures from other planes to fight for them, etc. the fighter can swing his sword, over and over again, doing (likely) 2d6+4 plus weapon enhancements. see a difference in offense? classes that tend towards high ACs tend to have low damage threshholds, and vice versa. on a different note, and has been stated before in this topic, any character can have a fairly high AC score through dex boosting items, bracers of armor, rings of deflection, nat armor amulets, light mithral steel shield +enhancements, etc. making characters whose sole purpose is to survive anything the DM throws at the party can make a DM tear their hair out. i used to remember how to build a monk with 30 ac by level 5 with appropriate character wealth, without VoP, but my brain isn't so fast these days =D i'll bet the guys over at the CharOp boards have forgotten more 40+ ac builds than most of us will ever even know about.
DarkRhystar 12-27-07, 07:16 PM	Wow, those feats are beyond awful. No thank you.
elonin 12-27-07, 07:38 PM	Those are all too powerful. It's already very easy to reach very good ac with light armoured fighting. Also, there is a good reason why there are no dex to damage feats that are core, way too powerful.
Leress 12-27-07, 10:29 PM	No it shouldn't. The whole point is that class abilities and feats are entirely different things. They are not meant to be equatable or swapable. This is the same reason you can't use skill points to purchase feats, or gold to purchase class abilities, or spell slots to purchase skills, or any other combination of the above. They are all entirely separate mechanics that give wierd (usually overpowered) results if you mix them. Acutally they should be equal since that is the only thing the fighter gets as a class ability. One general question to ask regarding your feats: if you were to create them as-is, would you ever create a caster without one of those feats? If the answer is no, then that's a good indicator that your feat is overpowered. While it isn't the indicator, it certainly sets up a warning flag. Not really, more like this should just be a class ability for the class. What I'd recomend is coming up with some alternate class features for various light/no armored classes to do similar things. I posted a swashbuckler variant one time that would sacrifice the Dodge bonus in exchange for an Int bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor. The catch was you couldn't gain a bonus greater than your swashbuckler class level, preventing wizards and the like from dipping in one level. It was well received. Perhaps you could base some things off of this, but not in the casting classes themselves. That is not very good variant class ability all it does is punish people who have high intelligence, it also hurt those with low intelligence as well. It pretty much hurts anybody who wants to make an organic character (by prestiging out). It just hurts everybody.
Ryushikaze 12-27-07, 11:22 PM	That is not very good variant class ability all it does is punish people who have high intelligence, it also hurt those with low intelligence as well. It pretty much hurts anybody who wants to make an organic character (by prestiging out). It just hurts everybody. If they have a high int, they get more AC as the level. If they have low int, they simply don't take the variant, or only take as many levels as they can manage. Of course, a low in swashbuckler is kind of silly to begin with.
Leress 12-27-07, 11:27 PM	If they have a high int, they get more AC as the level. If they have low int, they simply don't take the variant, or only take as many levels as they can manage. Of course, a low in swashbuckler is kind of silly to begin with. Umm...If I made a level 1 swashbuckler with a 14 int, I only get a +1 to AC instead of +2. If I am a level 10 swashbuckler with 20 Int I only get a +5 of of a possible +10. It just get worse as you level up. That is why it is not good as it just punishes anyone taking the class.
Leress 12-27-07, 11:47 PM	Wise dodge Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Wisdom bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take graceful cunning or sylvan grace Graceful cunning Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Intellegence bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take wise dodge or sylvan grace Sylvan Grace Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Charisma bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take wise dodge or graceful cunning Okay...having "you need to be this class at this level to get this ability" is very poor design. What kind of bonus to AC is this? Uncanny Dodge benefit, a character retains thier dexteirty bonus to ac, even when flat footed special, if a character with this feat gained uncanny dodge as a class feature. it instead becomes improved uncanny dodge Sneak attack benefit, the first time this feat is taken, add 2d6 to the character's sneak attack dice, every time it's taken after that, add +1d6 not +2d6 ( 2+1+1+1, not 2+3+4) special, a character can take this feat multiple times, it's effects stack What are the requirements? This is automatically better than getting as a class ability Revised weapon finesse Benefit, a character adds thier dexterity modifier instead of thier strength modifier for attack and damage rolls with the following weapons, all light weapons, plus the rapier, longsword, bastard sword, whip, net, shuriken, scimitar, chain, and spiked chain special (if you use this feat, it replaces weapon finesse and extra finesse for it combines the two) I don't even think extra finesse feat exists. Net don't deal damage, why does a longsword, bastard sword, and scimitar get the benefits of this feat? Why doesn't the dart, bolas, and rocks get the benefit of this feat? Bonus Daily spells Prerquisite: ability to cast arcane or divine spells Benefit, a character gains 2 additional spells per day of every spell level of one of thier spellcasting classes (cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, etc), if a character cannot get extra slots of higher level spells due to level, they get them when they can cast the new spells of the new spell level, every time this is taken afterwards for the same spellcasting class, add 1 additional spell slot of each castable level (instead of the 2 for the first time of that spellcasting class) special: a character can take this feat mutliple times it's effects stack Those classes don't need anymore power. Elephant's Memory Prerquisite: wizard level 3rd or higher Benefit: a wizard can now prepare all thier spells from memory, they need not take a spellbook, all they need do is gain a level or read a spellbook, to memorize a new spell. they can cast all the spells they have read spontaneously So they still need a spell book to get more powerful. This isn't a good feat. It's okay, but not good. Extra Spell known prerequisite: sorcerer level 3rd or higher benefit, a sorcerer with this feat learns an additional spell of each castable level, if they cannot cast a specific spell level due to lack of the level to cast it, they gain it when they can actually cast spells of that level, this is for thier spells known, these spells may be from any arcane or divine list special: a character can take this feat mutliple times, it's effects stack Okay that just too much both arcane and divine? Now I can drop all kinds of craziness of a wizard and cleric. Most of the feat are really overcompensating a give more power to those who already have enough as it stands. Go back to the drawing board.
RobbyPants 12-28-07, 10:01 AM	Acutally they should be equal since that is the only thing the fighter gets as a class ability. Which is why you see so many fighter fixes out there. ;) His entire set of class abilities is composed of inferior abilities. All he gets is some level of versitility. That is not very good variant class ability all it does is punish people who have high intelligence, it also hurt those with low intelligence as well. It pretty much hurts anybody who wants to make an organic character (by prestiging out). It just hurts everybody. Umm...If I made a level 1 swashbuckler with a 14 int, I only get a +1 to AC instead of +2. If I am a level 10 swashbuckler with 20 Int I only get a +5 of of a possible +10. It just get worse as you level up. That is why it is not good as it just punishes anyone taking the class. First of all, this ability (Canny Defense) already exists exactly as I worded it in no less than three PrCs (duelist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/duelist.htm), blade singer, and invisible blade), and two of them are only 5 level classes. The swashbuckler variant I proposed would give you a much higher cap. Second, if you have an 18+ Int, it's already in every way superior to the ability it replaces (Dodge +4), which you wouldn't even get until 20th level. You'd have the same +4 AC against all opponents by level 4. You don't even get Dodge +1 until 5th level normally. You could have upwards to +5 AC by that point, and even if you don't, the bonus applies to all opponents. Third, Int is the second most important stat for swashbucklers (+to damage? Yes please!). Any swashbuckler with a low Int gets exactly what they deserve.
Leress 12-28-07, 10:35 AM	Which is why you see so many fighter fixes out there. ;) His entire set of class abilities is composed of inferior abilities. All he gets is some level of versitility. Not much versatility First of all, this ability (Canny Defense) already exists exactly as I worded it in no less than three PrCs (duelist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/duelist.htm), blade singer, and invisible blade), and two of them are only 5 level classes. The swashbuckler variant I proposed would give you a much higher cap. Second, if you have an 18+ Int, it's already in every way superior to the ability it replaces (Dodge +4), which you wouldn't even get until 20th level. You'd have the same +4 AC against all opponents by level 4. You don't even get Dodge +1 until 5th level normally. You could have upwards to +5 AC by that point, and even if you don't, the bonus applies to all opponents. Third, Int is the second most important stat for swashbucklers (+to damage? Yes please!). Any swashbuckler with a low Int gets exactly what they deserve. Umm, no it's same cap, you just have more levels since you have the very same limit. Just because it's in book doesn't mean it good. Or I can just wear mithral chainshirt and have more AC. Having 14 Int at first level is not low (since is the second most important stat for the class). After about 7-10 level you will most likely prestige out and still won't reach the cap of the "canny defense"
Shedeo 12-28-07, 10:57 AM	You know, I had some high hopes for this thread. I came here expecting some good things. What I got is laughable crap. I seriously hope that this is a joke, because I certainly gave a chortle. There isn't even anything I could say should this actually be a serious thread. Everyone else has already said what I would have.
RobbyPants 12-28-07, 11:00 AM	Umm, no it's same cap, you just have more levels since you have the very same limit. Um, no. A 20 level class caps you at +20 AC (assuming a high Int mod, of course). A 5 level class caps you at +5. More class levels = bigger cap. Just because it's in book doesn't mean it good. See the next point... Or I can just wear mithral chainshirt and have more AC. Or you can do both because it works with light armor. ;) Having 14 Int at first level is not low (since is the second most important stat for the class). After about 7-10 level you will most likely prestige out and still won't reach the cap of the "canny defense" But it's still better than the Dodge bonus granted by the class that is replaced by this alternate class feature. I don't see why you're complaining about the ACF is it's better than what it replaces. With a 14 Int, you'd have to get to 15th level swashbuckler to get Dodge +3 to have it grant a bigger bonus than the +2 you'd get from the 14 Int. And that only applies to one opponent.
UAMDB 12-28-07, 11:01 AM	All I got to say is can i play in your games. I mean I can make a character that will just make you cry with these feats. Simply be i would only play humans and multiclass like crazy. Lets see, First level take the Chr to AC, and Revised Weapon Fenesse. Not sure what class but it does not matter. Next two levels take Swordsage to add Wis to AC, Then go Palladin a few levels, and then to fighter for the feats. I am now addind Dex+Wis+Chr+Armour to my AC, which with my current Character would be 4+3+2+4(Chainshirt at level 3) for an AC of 23 At level 3 It only gets worst from there. Also I am now adding my Chr to all of my saves, Or I could take Swashbuckler instead of Pally and use Int to AC, and add my Int to Damage as well. These are not the most ideal builds to take advantage of your feats. I am just thinking off the top of my head at work. Over all they are a very bad idea, and way over powered. I give you a B for effect, but a D- for execution.
Rahvan 12-28-07, 01:04 PM	Wizard, first level, Graceful Cunning, so int to AC Battledancer 1 level, Hey I get Cha to AC swordsage 2 levels OR 1 level of Monk, hey I get Wis, at level three extra spells So at level 4 I get: Cha+Wis+Int+Dex straight wizard from there, starting of course by being a Grey Elf. Get Elephants memory at level 6 to become a spontaneous caster. get Shape soulmeld (Impulse boots) at level 9 for uncanny dodge hmm, I think I could reenact the effect of a nuke on my own at 10th level, while still being severly armored... now I think about it, who even needs a tank anymore if you can get all but str and con to AC (And even Con is possible, just take 1 level of fist of the forest PRC, then you get con to AC.)
sigma999 12-28-07, 03:26 PM	Well really, Leress... Sorcerer could use more power in the Hit Dice area, but this is more of a passive defense change rather than altering the effectiveness of their class abilities. I agree though, there is no difference between feat and class ability, and any attempt to differentiate the two is a joke at best. Fighter is an example, of course, but most PrC abilities are so feat-like as it is that one is led to wonder why they don't exist as "talent trees" or feat chains in the first place.
RobbyPants 12-28-07, 03:35 PM	I agree though, there is no difference between feat and class ability, and any attempt to differentiate the two is a joke at best. So, what would be the prereqs of a +1 caster level/spells per day feat?
Ryushikaze 12-28-07, 05:01 PM	Umm...If I made a level 1 swashbuckler with a 14 int, I only get a +1 to AC instead of +2. And if you're a l2 Swashbuckler, you get a +2 bonus to AC. If I am a level 10 swashbuckler with 20 Int I only get a +5 of of a possible +10. It just get worse as you level up. That is why it is not good as it just punishes anyone taking the class. No, it doesn't. If you don't meet the maximum AC bonus granted by the thing, so what, you still have to be a nearly 20th level Swashbuckler to even get a +4 bonus against a single opponent, as opposed to the +5 against all this variant and your scenario allows for. "Oh noes, I can only put my int mod into my AC when the theoretical maximum is double that" isn't a punishment, it's room to grow. If I have a Character with Dex 14 who's wearing an armor with a max dex of +3, it's not a punishment for him to be wearing that armor because he's could add more dex to his AC if he had it.
sigma999 12-28-07, 07:12 PM	So, what would be the prereqs of a +1 caster level/spells per day feat? IMHO caster level is like BAB; it should not exceed actual character level. There's too much at stake in the name of encounter balance when a spellcaster cheeses their magic up as if they were 5+ levels higher through feats and items. It's OK to modify or combine spells of the same level, but some scale when you pump the caster level and it just goes haywire when you compare the results to other casters of your same actual level. But if you really want to break the game (more) like such, it's barely worth a feat, really. Do you also mean "spells per day" feat as in "a feat that grants a spell effect x times per day"? It's probably worth about one spell, max spell level as if your character levels were of Wizard, 3/day. Intrestingly, Rich Baker wrote something about how at-will Warlock invocations relate to normal spellcasting in a huge thread a while ago about Warlock Q/A. I can't find the thread (it's archived, I think) but this one quote was burned into my memory and I saved it on TXT (the whole discussion was saved HTML but I extracted this one because it was insightful... like a Rosetta Stone): Q: Will there be any more Invocations published in future books? Are there any rules, planned or otherwise, for creating new Invocations? A: RE: (Rich Baker) New invocations. We may have a book coming out in 2006 that will feature some, but you won't see any new ones before then. I'm afraid there isn't really a set process for thinking up new invocations, other than "look at what a sorcerer or wizard could do at least 5 times per day." In other words, an 8th-level warlock could replicate a 2nd-level spell, maybe a 3rd-level spell, with an invocation. But the invocation would have to fit the flavor. Warlocks tend to be selfish casters, too--don't give out many buff-your-friends or move-your-friends abilities. Most warlock stuff should hurt people or help the warlock and only the warlock. So according to Rich, who seems to have forgotten that Sorcerers cast 5/day a lot sooner than Wiz, it would be as if a Wizard could cast a single one of their second-highest level spells at will. In other words, as a DM I would give any caster the OK to cast one spell per spell level (excluding their highest slot) per will, although it really would depend on which spells were being cast. And this is why 4e, for instance, has spells that vary individually from castable at will, per encounter, per day, and by ritual (long cast time). I have a similar concept as a draft but I'm not accusing WOTC of stealing my idea since it hasn't left the TXT file yet! hahaha Guess it's just common sense, then. We came to the same conclusion a while ago, as a natural result of the Warlock's debut. Anyways, I go by something similar to what Baker wrote, since most spells expire in usefulness 2 class levels later. Some are rare exceptions but should probably be a spell level higher anyway, like Colorspray, Telekinesis, or Glitterdust.
DastardlyDan 12-28-07, 07:53 PM	Okay, so I noticed a lot of people making fun of the poster, but no one (that I read, I admit I skipped a few) that's actually trying to help the guy. Here's my 2 coppers worth: Wise dodge Prerquisites, must have a level of one of the folowing, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, ranger, fighter, scout, samurai or barbarian Benefit Add Wisdom bonus to AC when wearing light armor, no armor, carrying no shield or carrying a light shield, add an aditional+1 at character level 5 and every 5 character levels after, this bonus applies to both flat footed and touch type ac special this feat can only be taken at 1st level, a character with this feat cannot also take graceful cunning or sylvan grace Okay, I see where you're going with this. How about this instead: Wise Dodge Prerequisites: Dex 11 or less, Wis 12 or higher. Benefit: You can add your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier to your AC. This bonus works exactly the same as having your Dexterity added to your AC. Special: This feat can only be taken at 1st level. A character with this feat cannot also take Graceful Cunning or Sylvan Grace. Graceful Cunning would be exactly the same apply your Int and Sylvan Grace with Cha. Uncanny Dodge benefit, a character retains thier dexteirty bonus to ac, even when flat footed special, if a character with this feat gained uncanny dodge as a class feature. it instead becomes improved uncanny dodge I don't see the problem with making a somewhat standard class feature a feat. Revised weapon finesse Benefit, a character adds thier dexterity modifier instead of thier strength modifier for attack and damage rolls with the following weapons, all light weapons, plus the rapier, longsword, bastard sword, whip, net, shuriken, scimitar, chain, and spiked chain special (if you use this feat, it replaces weapon finesse and extra finesse for it combines the two) First off, as a DM, the only weapons I exclude in my game from Weapon Finesse are axes, bashing weapons, and any other 2-handed weapon that is not already allowed. This is because I feel that, realistically, just about any weapon can be used with finesse. However, your dex should never replace your str for damage. Dex can help you hit with more precision, but it won't help you hit harder. Elephant's Memory Prerquisite: wizard level 3rd or higher Benefit: a wizard can now prepare all thier spells from memory, they need not take a spellbook, all they need do is gain a level or read a spellbook, to memorize a new spell. they can cast all the spells they have read spontaneously A nice idea (and props for the nomenclature, I love it!), but too overpowered. You can't give a wizard the same abilities as a sorcerer and maintain game balance. Let's extrapolate from an existing prestige class: The Archmage. The Archmage gets an ability called High Arcana that allows them to permanently sacrifice spell slots to gain various abilities with their spells. One of these abilities allows them to sacrifice a spell slot to be able to cast a spell as a spell-like ability a limited number of times per day. Try this one on for size: Spell-Like Ability Prerequisites: Caster level 15th Benefit: You can permanently sacrifice a 5th level spell slot to prepare a spell for use as a spell-like ability usable twice per day. This effect is permanent, and you cannot change which spell becomes a spell-like ability. Special: You may select this feat multiple times. If you do, you may increase the number of times you can use your spell-like ability by an additional time per day OR you may choose a second spell, which you are then able to use as a spell-like ability twice a day. I purposely made a couple changes away from the Archmage's class ability. First, a player who takes the prestige class will have access to this ability sooner. I did this because I don't think that anything that is particular to an archetype should be as easy to get for just anyone. I did, however, make it available to ANY caster, not just wizards. I personally would not allow this feat in one of my campaigns. I think that the High Arcana is too special to the archetype for anyone else to be able to get it. I just did this to try to help you out in your campaign. Extra Spell known prerequisite: sorcerer level 3rd or higher benefit, a sorcerer with this feat learns an additional spell of each castable level, if they cannot cast a specific spell level due to lack of the level to cast it, they gain it when they can actually cast spells of that level, this is for thier spells known, these spells may be from any arcane or divine list special: a character can take this feat mutliple times, it's effects stack I'd lower the power of this one. Make it so it only affects one spell level of their choice. Then keep it so they can take it multiple times. Well, for my 2 cps worth, you got more than you bargained for.
SunTzuWarmaster 12-29-07, 10:02 AM	Ooh, ooh, ooh, as long as we are making characters that abuse the crap out of these feats: Middle Aged Gray Elf Wizard 20 1 - Bonus Daily Spells (hooray, now I cast as many spells as a sorcerer!) 3 - Elephants Memory (hooray, now I cast ALL of my spells spontaneously with better spell selection than a sorcerer and the ability to add ANY SPELL THAT I FIND to my spont. list) 5 - who the fvck cares what I take now, I am the best character in the game, woo hoo. Also, this wizard is going to find every Swift and Immediate Action spell he can and start casting 2-3 spells per round at level 3. Whoever said something like "at level 7 a wizard cannot burn all of his spells", how are you playing a wizard? You get 10 spells/day (+bonus for Int or specialization). If you aren't running out, you are not casting Mage Armor 2x/day, False Life 2x/day and Protection from Arrows during the day. There, now you are down to the (5 spells + bonus) that will last you through 2-3 or encounters if you are conservative. Take note that you have all of your higher level spells available, and that an Evards Black Tentacles and equipping the party with longbows (+/- Haste or Slow) ends 1 encounter/day. Also, you should be sleeping your party in a Rope Trick (or using it to bypass doors). This is before factoring in Swift Action spells such as "Distract Assailant" (AKA The rogue gets Sneak Attack), Stay the Hand (AKA only monsters with high will saves may attack me), or ever buffing the party prior to battle (PS the fighter would also like d10+7 extra hit points today). Anywho, everyone is right, these feats are incredibly overpowered. Just look at the above wizard, he gets 10 spells/day (+bonus), right? You actually gave him EIGHT more spells and took away his dependence on a spellbook (read: only weakness).
Daeva 12-31-07, 02:39 AM	theres a monk/barbarian presitge class in complete champion that adds cont o ac, go ahead and throw that in.