Lich with Corpsecrafter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lich with Corpsecrafter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
captianhowdy
05-08-07, 05:57 PM If someone takes the Corpsecrafter and any of the feats after it (destructive retribution, nimble bones, etc) and becomes a lich, will he gain the benifits of them on himself? technically, as a lich he is an undead he created, even though it might be bending the meaning a bit.
Jamesks
05-09-07, 01:01 AM While I could not speak on the rules legal part of a lich being enhanced by his own corpsecrafter feat, I have always let my players apply it's effects to them-selves. It seems far from broken for a spellcaster of any caliber to gain the benefits of this feat.
Unholy_King
05-09-07, 11:12 AM A Lich doesn't become "created." A lich ages. When a Lich completes his phylactery, he still looks like a normal person, even though he is technically undead. It's not till 100 or so yours later that he gets the haunt zombie look.

Corpse Crafter assumes that you spend the time to pick over a undead body with a fine tooth comb. Oh, that bone has a crack, lets Spackle that up. Hm... This joint looks a little weak, thats use a metal screw and... Whoa! What did that guy do to his pelvis? I'm going to have to dig around my bone pile for a new one...

So, no, a Lich would not be able to... "Create" himself.

Now, if he wanted to create some super zombie and transfer his soul into it... well then he couldn't be a Lich.
captianhowdy
05-09-07, 07:01 PM From MM though, the phylactery just stores tho soul. The person drinks the potion or whatever that kills him and then is instantly reborn as the lich wit the undead type
Unholy_King
05-09-07, 07:04 PM So, before completing the ritual, his going to dissect himself, make sure the skin and the bones are all in good condition, swap out some bad bones, maybe add leather straps to some weaker muscles, seal himself back up, and then finish the ritual to become a Lich?
Dead_Weasel
05-09-07, 07:45 PM Corpsecrafter only affects undead you create or raise with a necromancy spell; liches are not created by a spell. Unless you have specifically houseruled that rituals are treated as spells, or have a custom spell that creates liches, Corpsecrafter cannot be applied to a lich.
neilthrun
05-09-07, 08:31 PM Alternativly, if your player wants the benifits of the corpse crafter feats, he can use a contingent create greater undead on himself, set to go off when he dies. I've always wanted to do a favored soul who used this route to get the mummified template.
Dead_Weasel
05-10-07, 04:35 AM You only need create undead for mummification, not create greater undead. Which is good, because create undead is already of the maximum spell level usable with contingency.
Banatine
05-10-07, 08:13 AM You could create a random corpse using the feats, kill yourself, then have your sould go to the crafted body. Well, I would allow it (if i was a DM).
Unholy_King
05-10-07, 10:55 AM You could create a random corpse using the feats, kill yourself, then have your sould go to the crafted body. Well, I would allow it (if i was a DM).

Too bad that goes against being a Lich, considering your soul already committed to the phylactery...
captianhowdy
05-10-07, 08:02 PM that is actually a very clever idea. gee wilikers you kids are bright :P
papawolf2
11-03-07, 06:19 PM What about a dread necromancer that spends 20 levels turning in to a lich? And what about undead grafts? Does the feat apply if you rebuild your body after becoming a lich? And what about the undead mastery class feature? If anyone has good ideas on these please reply.
katarl
11-04-07, 02:10 PM I used to think corpsecrafter and undead mastery applied after the lich ritual, but another poster argued that the description required you to cast a necromancy spell for it to be effective, and i had to concede the point.

You can't 'create' yourself, and the lich ceremony does not require necromancy (or even access to the school), so none of these effects apply.

***

I actually want to be wrong about this. If anyone can find a way to circumvent this using the rules, and justify it, or find a flaw in this logic, i will give them a cookie.
BruceLeeroy
11-04-07, 06:39 PM Exactly what is there to stop you from rebuilding your body and gaining the benefit of the Corpsecrafter feats after becoming a lich? It's not like you would feel pain. Honestly, if someone is dead set on being a necromantic Lich, the Corpsecrafter feats are great flavor and not unbalancing in the slightest. You could easily "re-create" your body practically from scratch if you were an undead taxidermist.
deathbane
11-04-07, 08:01 PM Exactly what is there to stop you from rebuilding your body and gaining the benefit of the Corpsecrafter feats after becoming a lich? It's not like you would feel pain. Honestly, if someone is dead set on being a necromantic Lich, the Corpsecrafter feats are great flavor and not unbalancing in the slightest. You could easily "re-create" your body practically from scratch if you were an undead taxidermist.

Since when don't undead feel pain? I am sure if taking body parts off did nothing to undead, then physical attacks would have no effect, and once you do so much damage you get to go back to the phylactery.
shyxander
11-04-07, 08:54 PM pain and damage aren't the same thing. if i'm doped up with novacaine and you hit me with a bat i might not feel it but it's still gonna do damage. a lich rebuilding himself isn't too much different than performing surgery. he could even magic jar himself into an alternate body to perform the alterations. as long as it's done slowly allowing time for healing between surgeries he should be fine. what about when he's destroyed? can he apply his feats to the newly reformed body? or is the time spent on the original wasted?
deathbane
11-04-07, 08:58 PM pain and damage aren't the same thing. if i'm doped up with novacaine and you hit me with a bat i might not feel it but it's still gonna do damage. a lich rebuilding himself isn't too much different than performing surgery. he could even magic jar himself into an alternate body to perform the alterations. as long as it's done slowly allowing time for healing between surgeries he should be fine. what about when he's destroyed? can he apply his feats to the newly reformed body? or is the time spent on the original wasted?

There is still nothing that says undead don't feel pain, and regardless of whether the lich feels it or not the damage is still done. His soul is in the phylactery already, so the magic jar won't work.
shyxander
11-04-07, 09:03 PM it doesn't say if they feel pain or not but it's not really an issue if he's unconsious via magic jar. as for the damage it doesn't say how long he can take for the corpse crafter feat. if long term extensive surgery were leathal then why is michal jakson still around?
deathbane
11-04-07, 09:08 PM it doesn't say if they feel pain or not but it's not really an issue if he's unconsious via magic jar. as for the damage it doesn't say how long he can take for the corpse crafter feat. if long term extensive surgery were leathal then why is michal jakson still around?

Even if you are unconscious damage is still damage, and what does micheal jackson have to do with D&D?

I will make it bold this time.
How is he going to use magic jar if his soul is in the phylactery?
papawolf2
11-10-07, 12:46 AM all good replys thank you..... Back in the older issues of dnd turning in to a lich was via spell... it even alowed you to turn others into liches with the spell. There also used to be rule for different types of liches. Some types included demi lich (tomb of horrors), semi liches, and war liches, and undead called lichlings. I understand the argument against the use of the feats. But you can already recreate an intire party with the corpse crafter feats, why not yourself?
deathbane
11-10-07, 05:53 PM all good replys thank you..... Back in the older issues of dnd turning in to a lich was via spell... it even alowed you to turn others into liches with the spell. There also used to be rule for different types of liches. Some types included demi lich (tomb of horrors), semi liches, and war liches, and undead called lichlings. I understand the argument against the use of the feats. But you can already recreate an intire party with the corpse crafter feats, why not yourself?

I was just arguing RAW, and RAI, now if a player wanted to do it, and could come up with a reasonable work around I would adjust his LA due to the extra abilities since the rules were not designed to work that way.
Those other undead are not a party. They are just things that hang around the party.
papawolf2
11-16-07, 04:10 AM Thank you that is an excelent point. I will keep it in mind for pc's who want to much power. And to ward off my own thoughts off cheating the system.
Dead_Weasel
11-16-07, 07:43 PM The Corpse Crafter feats still work for bringing your party back as undead, so long as you do so through a necromancy spell that you cast. If you bring them back through other means (spell-like abilities, rituals, magic items, etc.), the feat does not work. Liches are not created by a spell, so they cannot gain the benefits of the feat chain unless a spell that creates liches is published by WotC.

Obviously a houserule will change the situation, but since most undead-creating spells require a corpse as a target, either contingency or Craft Contingent Spell provide the only ways to apply the feats to yourself; otherwise a trustworthy third party with the appropriate spell and feats is required.
Navigator
11-17-07, 09:07 PM Obviously a houserule will change the situation, but since most undead-creating spells require a corpse as a target, either contingency or Craft Contingent Spell provide the only ways to apply the feats to yourself; otherwise a trustworthy third party with the appropriate spell and feats is required.

I don't see how this would work. If you set create undead on a contingency, then you become the undead described in the spell's description, not a lich.
deathbane
11-17-07, 09:11 PM I don't see how this would work. If you set create undead on a contingency, then you become the undead described in the spell's description, not a lich.

I guess(?) he meant a spell that could bring you back as a lich which would most likely be epic, unless the DM felt generous.
Navigator
11-17-07, 09:13 PM I guess(?) he meant a spell that could bring you back as a lich which would most likely be epic, unless the DM felt generous.

Okay, I see now.
Dead_Weasel
11-19-07, 01:28 AM I don't see how this would work. If you set create undead on a contingency, then you become the undead described in the spell's description, not a lich.I addressed the lich part already, I was simply outlining how:to apply the [Corpsecrafter] feats to yourself
DiceGolem
11-19-07, 01:23 PM Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher.

First and foremost, no spell is required to become a lich. You could be an Ex-Druid 6/Blighter 5 with Craft Wondrous Item and still become a lich. Any spell/ritual/incantation is all RP and is completely up to the DM to house rule in.

Corpsecrafter only works on undead you "raise or create with any necromancy spell." There is no spell in 3.x to create a lich (barring Epic, as above) and so Corpsecrafter doesn't apply. Corpsecrafter doesn't even work on a Fell Animate Fireball, even though it raises zombies/skeletons.

An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force.

The rules say nothing about a soul. A lich can cast Magic Jar and has a soul (ironically enough). The DM can house rule that a lich's "life force" can count as a "soul" in all fairness, however.

The best option for Corpsecrafter mages would be for contingency + create undead, as already discussed. Besides, if you're taking a bunch of Corpsecrafter feats to have some extra hit points and cold damage on touch, then you're not taking metamagic feats! From a DM standpoint, I think that's a win-win.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
captianhowdy 05-08-07, 05:57 PM	If someone takes the Corpsecrafter and any of the feats after it (destructive retribution, nimble bones, etc) and becomes a lich, will he gain the benifits of them on himself? technically, as a lich he is an undead he created, even though it might be bending the meaning a bit.
Jamesks 05-09-07, 01:01 AM	While I could not speak on the rules legal part of a lich being enhanced by his own corpsecrafter feat, I have always let my players apply it's effects to them-selves. It seems far from broken for a spellcaster of any caliber to gain the benefits of this feat.
Unholy_King 05-09-07, 11:12 AM	A Lich doesn't become "created." A lich ages. When a Lich completes his phylactery, he still looks like a normal person, even though he is technically undead. It's not till 100 or so yours later that he gets the haunt zombie look. Corpse Crafter assumes that you spend the time to pick over a undead body with a fine tooth comb. Oh, that bone has a crack, lets Spackle that up. Hm... This joint looks a little weak, thats use a metal screw and... Whoa! What did that guy do to his pelvis? I'm going to have to dig around my bone pile for a new one... So, no, a Lich would not be able to... "Create" himself. Now, if he wanted to create some super zombie and transfer his soul into it... well then he couldn't be a Lich.
captianhowdy 05-09-07, 07:01 PM	From MM though, the phylactery just stores tho soul. The person drinks the potion or whatever that kills him and then is instantly reborn as the lich wit the undead type
Unholy_King 05-09-07, 07:04 PM	So, before completing the ritual, his going to dissect himself, make sure the skin and the bones are all in good condition, swap out some bad bones, maybe add leather straps to some weaker muscles, seal himself back up, and then finish the ritual to become a Lich?
Dead_Weasel 05-09-07, 07:45 PM	Corpsecrafter only affects undead you create or raise with a necromancy spell; liches are not created by a spell. Unless you have specifically houseruled that rituals are treated as spells, or have a custom spell that creates liches, Corpsecrafter cannot be applied to a lich.
neilthrun 05-09-07, 08:31 PM	Alternativly, if your player wants the benifits of the corpse crafter feats, he can use a contingent create greater undead on himself, set to go off when he dies. I've always wanted to do a favored soul who used this route to get the mummified template.
Dead_Weasel 05-10-07, 04:35 AM	You only need create undead for mummification, not create greater undead. Which is good, because create undead is already of the maximum spell level usable with contingency.
Banatine 05-10-07, 08:13 AM	You could create a random corpse using the feats, kill yourself, then have your sould go to the crafted body. Well, I would allow it (if i was a DM).
Unholy_King 05-10-07, 10:55 AM	You could create a random corpse using the feats, kill yourself, then have your sould go to the crafted body. Well, I would allow it (if i was a DM). Too bad that goes against being a Lich, considering your soul already committed to the phylactery...
captianhowdy 05-10-07, 08:02 PM	that is actually a very clever idea. gee wilikers you kids are bright :P
papawolf2 11-03-07, 06:19 PM	What about a dread necromancer that spends 20 levels turning in to a lich? And what about undead grafts? Does the feat apply if you rebuild your body after becoming a lich? And what about the undead mastery class feature? If anyone has good ideas on these please reply.
katarl 11-04-07, 02:10 PM	I used to think corpsecrafter and undead mastery applied after the lich ritual, but another poster argued that the description required you to cast a necromancy spell for it to be effective, and i had to concede the point. You can't 'create' yourself, and the lich ceremony does not require necromancy (or even access to the school), so none of these effects apply. *** I actually want to be wrong about this. If anyone can find a way to circumvent this using the rules, and justify it, or find a flaw in this logic, i will give them a cookie.
BruceLeeroy 11-04-07, 06:39 PM	Exactly what is there to stop you from rebuilding your body and gaining the benefit of the Corpsecrafter feats after becoming a lich? It's not like you would feel pain. Honestly, if someone is dead set on being a necromantic Lich, the Corpsecrafter feats are great flavor and not unbalancing in the slightest. You could easily "re-create" your body practically from scratch if you were an undead taxidermist.
deathbane 11-04-07, 08:01 PM	Exactly what is there to stop you from rebuilding your body and gaining the benefit of the Corpsecrafter feats after becoming a lich? It's not like you would feel pain. Honestly, if someone is dead set on being a necromantic Lich, the Corpsecrafter feats are great flavor and not unbalancing in the slightest. You could easily "re-create" your body practically from scratch if you were an undead taxidermist. Since when don't undead feel pain? I am sure if taking body parts off did nothing to undead, then physical attacks would have no effect, and once you do so much damage you get to go back to the phylactery.
shyxander 11-04-07, 08:54 PM	pain and damage aren't the same thing. if i'm doped up with novacaine and you hit me with a bat i might not feel it but it's still gonna do damage. a lich rebuilding himself isn't too much different than performing surgery. he could even magic jar himself into an alternate body to perform the alterations. as long as it's done slowly allowing time for healing between surgeries he should be fine. what about when he's destroyed? can he apply his feats to the newly reformed body? or is the time spent on the original wasted?
deathbane 11-04-07, 08:58 PM	pain and damage aren't the same thing. if i'm doped up with novacaine and you hit me with a bat i might not feel it but it's still gonna do damage. a lich rebuilding himself isn't too much different than performing surgery. he could even magic jar himself into an alternate body to perform the alterations. as long as it's done slowly allowing time for healing between surgeries he should be fine. what about when he's destroyed? can he apply his feats to the newly reformed body? or is the time spent on the original wasted? There is still nothing that says undead don't feel pain, and regardless of whether the lich feels it or not the damage is still done. His soul is in the phylactery already, so the magic jar won't work.
shyxander 11-04-07, 09:03 PM	it doesn't say if they feel pain or not but it's not really an issue if he's unconsious via magic jar. as for the damage it doesn't say how long he can take for the corpse crafter feat. if long term extensive surgery were leathal then why is michal jakson still around?
deathbane 11-04-07, 09:08 PM	it doesn't say if they feel pain or not but it's not really an issue if he's unconsious via magic jar. as for the damage it doesn't say how long he can take for the corpse crafter feat. if long term extensive surgery were leathal then why is michal jakson still around? Even if you are unconscious damage is still damage, and what does micheal jackson have to do with D&D? I will make it bold this time. How is he going to use magic jar if his soul is in the phylactery?
papawolf2 11-10-07, 12:46 AM	all good replys thank you..... Back in the older issues of dnd turning in to a lich was via spell... it even alowed you to turn others into liches with the spell. There also used to be rule for different types of liches. Some types included demi lich (tomb of horrors), semi liches, and war liches, and undead called lichlings. I understand the argument against the use of the feats. But you can already recreate an intire party with the corpse crafter feats, why not yourself?
deathbane 11-10-07, 05:53 PM	all good replys thank you..... Back in the older issues of dnd turning in to a lich was via spell... it even alowed you to turn others into liches with the spell. There also used to be rule for different types of liches. Some types included demi lich (tomb of horrors), semi liches, and war liches, and undead called lichlings. I understand the argument against the use of the feats. But you can already recreate an intire party with the corpse crafter feats, why not yourself? I was just arguing RAW, and RAI, now if a player wanted to do it, and could come up with a reasonable work around I would adjust his LA due to the extra abilities since the rules were not designed to work that way. Those other undead are not a party. They are just things that hang around the party.
papawolf2 11-16-07, 04:10 AM	Thank you that is an excelent point. I will keep it in mind for pc's who want to much power. And to ward off my own thoughts off cheating the system.
Dead_Weasel 11-16-07, 07:43 PM	The Corpse Crafter feats still work for bringing your party back as undead, so long as you do so through a necromancy spell that you cast. If you bring them back through other means (spell-like abilities, rituals, magic items, etc.), the feat does not work. Liches are not created by a spell, so they cannot gain the benefits of the feat chain unless a spell that creates liches is published by WotC. Obviously a houserule will change the situation, but since most undead-creating spells require a corpse as a target, either contingency or Craft Contingent Spell provide the only ways to apply the feats to yourself; otherwise a trustworthy third party with the appropriate spell and feats is required.
Navigator 11-17-07, 09:07 PM	Obviously a houserule will change the situation, but since most undead-creating spells require a corpse as a target, either contingency or Craft Contingent Spell provide the only ways to apply the feats to yourself; otherwise a trustworthy third party with the appropriate spell and feats is required. I don't see how this would work. If you set create undead on a contingency, then you become the undead described in the spell's description, not a lich.
deathbane 11-17-07, 09:11 PM	I don't see how this would work. If you set create undead on a contingency, then you become the undead described in the spell's description, not a lich. I guess(?) he meant a spell that could bring you back as a lich which would most likely be epic, unless the DM felt generous.
Navigator 11-17-07, 09:13 PM	I guess(?) he meant a spell that could bring you back as a lich which would most likely be epic, unless the DM felt generous. Okay, I see now.
Dead_Weasel 11-19-07, 01:28 AM	I don't see how this would work. If you set create undead on a contingency, then you become the undead described in the spell's description, not a lich.I addressed the lich part already, I was simply outlining how:to apply the [Corpsecrafter] feats to yourself
DiceGolem 11-19-07, 01:23 PM	Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. First and foremost, no spell is required to become a lich. You could be an Ex-Druid 6/Blighter 5 with Craft Wondrous Item and still become a lich. Any spell/ritual/incantation is all RP and is completely up to the DM to house rule in. Corpsecrafter only works on undead you "raise or create with any necromancy spell." There is no spell in 3.x to create a lich (barring Epic, as above) and so Corpsecrafter doesn't apply. Corpsecrafter doesn't even work on a Fell Animate Fireball, even though it raises zombies/skeletons. An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. The rules say nothing about a soul. A lich can cast Magic Jar and has a soul (ironically enough). The DM can house rule that a lich's "life force" can count as a "soul" in all fairness, however. The best option for Corpsecrafter mages would be for contingency + create undead, as already discussed. Besides, if you're taking a bunch of Corpsecrafter feats to have some extra hit points and cold damage on touch, then you're not taking metamagic feats! From a DM standpoint, I think that's a win-win.