~Limit to Leadership?~ [Archive] - Wizards Community

~Limit to Leadership?~ [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rice830
03-26-07, 11:47 PM ~Is there a limit to the amount of cohorts you can have at any one time? It doesnt say in the DMG, and my retarded friend wanted to make a Legendary leader named Arthur and have a bunch of cohorts that lived in a castle, somehow named Camelot. Coincedence? I think not.
andinel
03-27-07, 01:41 AM I believe that you can only have a single cohort at any time with the rules as written in the DMG.
runestar
03-27-07, 01:55 AM You can have any number of cohorts you want, so long as it does not exceed one.:P
paladin2019
03-27-07, 02:16 AM There is no hard limit in the DMG, only the caution to DMs that each cohort is a separate character in their own right and due their own share of the limelight. My soft limit is no more than the leader's Cha bonus, and IMC the feat itself has an additional prereq that the leader must qualify for the base of operations modifier. Sidekick exists as a feat that grants a single cohort without this additional prereq.
runestar
03-27-07, 02:20 AM Considering that cohorts do not leech xp from the party, I certainly see a problem with allowing too many in the game...:P
BW0222
03-27-07, 11:26 AM rice830

~Is there a limit to the amount of cohorts you can have at any one time?

Yes. The feat allows you to have one cohort and a number of followers. The feat does not say that it can be taken multiple times.

It doesnt say in the DMG, and my retarded friend wanted to make a Legendary leader named Arthur and have a bunch of cohorts that lived in a castle, somehow named Camelot. Coincedence? I think not.

Take him aside an let him know that you what level of maturity you expect in your campaign. Also let him know that (as a DM) you will be reviewing backgrounds and not permitting character in which to not fit in with the general theme and conditions of the campaign. Such a background would not be acceptable in your campaign -- it included real world references, it violates starting wealth (you can't start with a kingdom and/or castle), you can't dream up your own kingdoms, and you can't have hundreds of followers. In the campaign you expect folks to start off in roles which allows them to come together as adventurers. If you ruled a kingdom, you wouldn't be 1st-level, and you wouldn't be out adventuring.

Assuming starting level for the campaign is first, you can work with him background as a stable boy whose uncle is a horse trainer for a group of the Dukes cavalry or something similiar.
DreadArchon
03-27-07, 11:46 AM The character can attract a cohort of up to this level.
A cohort. One.
paladin2019
03-27-07, 04:38 PM And, IIRC, the actual DMG description says cohorts and followers. Plural in both cases. As this feat is necessarily subject to DM interpretation in nearly every aspect of its use, no specific is necessary. It may fit the style or necessitites of the campaign to allow multiple cohorts for a single character and the feat does not restrict this. Conversely, it may not. And the feat does not restrict this. The feat is written to make the answer to this question a DM's call.

I gave my solution.
Cerebrilith
03-27-07, 05:35 PM I'd like to start off by saying that I'm not retarded and that's it's a cool idea.

And also that it wasn't going to be so much as a kingdom as a group of knights who who traveled around and had coincidentail names.

Doesn't also say soemwhere in the DMG that it takes 1d3 months to recriut a cohort? So be taking a few years likely, I'd be able to group together a set of knights for my round table?
zook1shoe666
03-27-07, 05:50 PM And, IIRC, the actual DMG description says cohorts and followers. Plural in both cases. As this feat is necessarily subject to DM interpretation in nearly every aspect of its use, no specific is necessary. It may fit the style or necessitites of the campaign to allow multiple cohorts for a single character and the feat does not restrict this. Conversely, it may not. And the feat does not restrict this. The feat is written to make the answer to this question a DM's call.

I gave my solution.

read the part under the table on DMG (3.5) pg 107. "Cohort Level: The character can attract a cohort of up to...."

DreadArchon is right, as per the rules.
PhaedrusXY
03-27-07, 06:03 PM You only get one cohort when you take Leadership. You can't take a feat multiple times unless it specifically says you can in the feat text. Leadership does not say that. Therefore, you can only get one cohort.

There are other feats that are similiar and that don't say you can't take them AND take leadership, such as Undead Leadership.
tiluvias99
03-27-07, 06:08 PM The only other point is that the DMG says "there is no limit to the number of cohorts that you can emply". Note however, that it says employ. There is no limit to the number that one can get by paying them, but you only get one from the Leadership feat.

Also note that, though this may just be my interpretation, whenever it says cohorts (plural), it never says more than one at the same time. You can attract as many cohorts as you'd like. But only one will stay.
Tichondrus
03-27-07, 06:14 PM I don't recall if it was a 3.0 rule or my own invention but here's my rule for cohort:
Leadership can be taken more than once.
Each time you pick the feat you raise your leadership by 1 and can atract an extra cohort.
So what's the problem? Let him have 15 cohorts, if he can pay for leadership 15 times.
paladin2019
03-27-07, 07:53 PM The problm is that each cohort is a separate character and entitled to its own share of the spotlight. Having 15 cohorts entitles that player to that much more attention from the DM, at the expense of the other players.

I still don't see rules-based limit to the number of cohorts a character can maintain through the Leadership feat, but there is a definite limit the DM must enforce in the group dynamic.
zook1shoe666
03-27-07, 08:00 PM The problm is that each cohort is a separate character and entitled to its own share of the spotlight. Having 15 cohorts entitles that player to that much more attention from the DM, at the expense of the other players.

I still don't see rules-based limit to the number of cohorts a character can maintain through the Leadership feat, but there is a definite limit the DM must enforce in the group dynamic.

i agree. its not fair to have multiple "characters" until your control, when others only have one
Squall255
03-27-07, 09:31 PM it can be fair depending on how the player plays it. One of the stereotypical characters is the "summoner" or someone who has a fair number of followers who do his bidding. While there is a limit to how many a player can handle and not take away from the other players, limiting them to just ONE character is unfair to those players who wish to play the "look at my minions cause i suck" stereotype.
zook1shoe666
03-27-07, 09:33 PM but most of the summoned monsters don't last long enough for their backstory to even matter.
SALDAR
03-28-07, 12:47 AM The only other point is that the DMG says "there is no limit to the number of cohorts that you can emply". Note however, that it says employ. There is no limit to the number that one can get by paying them, but you only get one from the Leadership feat.
The only cohorts you can have are those granted by the Leadership feat (DMG pg 105, PCs as Leaders) and, as you pointed out, there is no limit (DMG pg 104, Cohorts). As for the "no limit to the number you can get by paying them", the cohorts you get from the feat are paid anyway. Cohorts do not work for free, although Followers do. If you want to pay someone to accompany you on adventures then you need read the section on Hirelings. All of this is covered on pages 104 to 107 in the DMG.

Also note that, though this may just be my interpretation, whenever it says cohorts (plural), it never says more than one at the same time. You can attract as many cohorts as you'd like. But only one will stay.
If it were only "one at a time" then there would be no need to use the plural to begin with. The very definition of a pluralized term is that it is referring to more than one. Your argument is that they state the plural (cohorts) and omit a temporal limit to the singular (X at a time), therefore it is singular (cohort).

Even though there is no limit, multiple cohorts can quickly unbalance a game. Just be careful when doing so.
paladin2019
03-28-07, 01:51 AM it can be fair depending on how the player plays it. One of the stereotypical characters is the "summoner" or someone who has a fair number of followers who do his bidding. While there is a limit to how many a player can handle and not take away from the other players, limiting them to just ONE character is unfair to those players who wish to play the "look at my minions cause i suck" stereotype.
The difference between followers and summoned creatures and a cohort is that the first two are not full fledged characters entitled to an equal share of the DM's attention. Followers and summoned do what the controlling character directs as a simple extension of his actions. A cohort is a separate and distinct personality from its leader.

To illustrate this another way, followers and summoned act on the controlling character's initiative, just like a mount or animal companion. A cohort is a separate character and so has its own initiative score.

How many characters, as opposed to extensions of a character, does the DM want at the table?
Squall255
03-28-07, 10:11 AM well, i always play cohorts as (to use your terms) "extensions of my character" granted they have their own initiative, but i tend to treat them as really strong summons/minions. maybe this is just me trying to play summoner in a game that has crap for summon spells. granted that this is not for every character, and I work hard with the DM to allow my cohort to be allowed (when I have one). I'm just trying to say that sometimes more than one cohort isn't bad. Twelve? that's probably a little overkill. but i could see two or three "generals" of a mini army of summonables. It's all just a matter of play style, and fitting into the campaign.
ninja1
03-28-07, 10:36 AM If it were only "one at a time" then there would be no need to use the plural to begin with. I think there is a need for the use the plural tense if it is to address the number of cohorts that may be employed over the course of a character's lifetime.

Cohorts may die or be dismissed.

In this case, the plural statement may address the fact that once dead or dismissed, another cohort may be recruited as "there is limit to the number of cohorts that you can employ".

I am also in the camp that believes that Leadership grants only one cohort at a time.
DreadArchon
03-28-07, 01:15 PM I am also in the camp that believes that Leadership grants only one cohort at a time.
As this thread progressed, I read the text again. I can almost see where the "multiple cohorts" camp comes from, actually.

Still, I can't get past this line:
You don’t consult the table to see if your cohort gains levels
It's very much singular. They'd have used "cohorts" if it was possible to have more than one. (I'm also thinking that the wording in the PHB and Libris Mortis back me up a little better, but I don't have either with me.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rice830 03-26-07, 11:47 PM	~Is there a limit to the amount of cohorts you can have at any one time? It doesnt say in the DMG, and my retarded friend wanted to make a Legendary leader named Arthur and have a bunch of cohorts that lived in a castle, somehow named Camelot. Coincedence? I think not.
andinel 03-27-07, 01:41 AM	I believe that you can only have a single cohort at any time with the rules as written in the DMG.
runestar 03-27-07, 01:55 AM	You can have any number of cohorts you want, so long as it does not exceed one.:P
paladin2019 03-27-07, 02:16 AM	There is no hard limit in the DMG, only the caution to DMs that each cohort is a separate character in their own right and due their own share of the limelight. My soft limit is no more than the leader's Cha bonus, and IMC the feat itself has an additional prereq that the leader must qualify for the base of operations modifier. Sidekick exists as a feat that grants a single cohort without this additional prereq.
runestar 03-27-07, 02:20 AM	Considering that cohorts do not leech xp from the party, I certainly see a problem with allowing too many in the game...:P
BW0222 03-27-07, 11:26 AM	rice830 ~Is there a limit to the amount of cohorts you can have at any one time? Yes. The feat allows you to have one cohort and a number of followers. The feat does not say that it can be taken multiple times. It doesnt say in the DMG, and my retarded friend wanted to make a Legendary leader named Arthur and have a bunch of cohorts that lived in a castle, somehow named Camelot. Coincedence? I think not. Take him aside an let him know that you what level of maturity you expect in your campaign. Also let him know that (as a DM) you will be reviewing backgrounds and not permitting character in which to not fit in with the general theme and conditions of the campaign. Such a background would not be acceptable in your campaign -- it included real world references, it violates starting wealth (you can't start with a kingdom and/or castle), you can't dream up your own kingdoms, and you can't have hundreds of followers. In the campaign you expect folks to start off in roles which allows them to come together as adventurers. If you ruled a kingdom, you wouldn't be 1st-level, and you wouldn't be out adventuring. Assuming starting level for the campaign is first, you can work with him background as a stable boy whose uncle is a horse trainer for a group of the Dukes cavalry or something similiar.
DreadArchon 03-27-07, 11:46 AM	The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. A cohort. One.
paladin2019 03-27-07, 04:38 PM	And, IIRC, the actual DMG description says cohorts and followers. Plural in both cases. As this feat is necessarily subject to DM interpretation in nearly every aspect of its use, no specific is necessary. It may fit the style or necessitites of the campaign to allow multiple cohorts for a single character and the feat does not restrict this. Conversely, it may not. And the feat does not restrict this. The feat is written to make the answer to this question a DM's call. I gave my solution.
Cerebrilith 03-27-07, 05:35 PM	I'd like to start off by saying that I'm not retarded and that's it's a cool idea. And also that it wasn't going to be so much as a kingdom as a group of knights who who traveled around and had coincidentail names. Doesn't also say soemwhere in the DMG that it takes 1d3 months to recriut a cohort? So be taking a few years likely, I'd be able to group together a set of knights for my round table?
zook1shoe666 03-27-07, 05:50 PM	And, IIRC, the actual DMG description says cohorts and followers. Plural in both cases. As this feat is necessarily subject to DM interpretation in nearly every aspect of its use, no specific is necessary. It may fit the style or necessitites of the campaign to allow multiple cohorts for a single character and the feat does not restrict this. Conversely, it may not. And the feat does not restrict this. The feat is written to make the answer to this question a DM's call. I gave my solution. read the part under the table on DMG (3.5) pg 107. "Cohort Level: The character can attract a cohort of up to...." DreadArchon is right, as per the rules.
PhaedrusXY 03-27-07, 06:03 PM	You only get one cohort when you take Leadership. You can't take a feat multiple times unless it specifically says you can in the feat text. Leadership does not say that. Therefore, you can only get one cohort. There are other feats that are similiar and that don't say you can't take them AND take leadership, such as Undead Leadership.
tiluvias99 03-27-07, 06:08 PM	The only other point is that the DMG says "there is no limit to the number of cohorts that you can emply". Note however, that it says employ. There is no limit to the number that one can get by paying them, but you only get one from the Leadership feat. Also note that, though this may just be my interpretation, whenever it says cohorts (plural), it never says more than one at the same time. You can attract as many cohorts as you'd like. But only one will stay.
Tichondrus 03-27-07, 06:14 PM	I don't recall if it was a 3.0 rule or my own invention but here's my rule for cohort: Leadership can be taken more than once. Each time you pick the feat you raise your leadership by 1 and can atract an extra cohort. So what's the problem? Let him have 15 cohorts, if he can pay for leadership 15 times.
paladin2019 03-27-07, 07:53 PM	The problm is that each cohort is a separate character and entitled to its own share of the spotlight. Having 15 cohorts entitles that player to that much more attention from the DM, at the expense of the other players. I still don't see rules-based limit to the number of cohorts a character can maintain through the Leadership feat, but there is a definite limit the DM must enforce in the group dynamic.
zook1shoe666 03-27-07, 08:00 PM	The problm is that each cohort is a separate character and entitled to its own share of the spotlight. Having 15 cohorts entitles that player to that much more attention from the DM, at the expense of the other players. I still don't see rules-based limit to the number of cohorts a character can maintain through the Leadership feat, but there is a definite limit the DM must enforce in the group dynamic. i agree. its not fair to have multiple "characters" until your control, when others only have one
Squall255 03-27-07, 09:31 PM	it can be fair depending on how the player plays it. One of the stereotypical characters is the "summoner" or someone who has a fair number of followers who do his bidding. While there is a limit to how many a player can handle and not take away from the other players, limiting them to just ONE character is unfair to those players who wish to play the "look at my minions cause i suck" stereotype.
zook1shoe666 03-27-07, 09:33 PM	but most of the summoned monsters don't last long enough for their backstory to even matter.
SALDAR 03-28-07, 12:47 AM	The only other point is that the DMG says "there is no limit to the number of cohorts that you can emply". Note however, that it says employ. There is no limit to the number that one can get by paying them, but you only get one from the Leadership feat. The only cohorts you can have are those granted by the Leadership feat (DMG pg 105, PCs as Leaders) and, as you pointed out, there is no limit (DMG pg 104, Cohorts). As for the "no limit to the number you can get by paying them", the cohorts you get from the feat are paid anyway. Cohorts do not work for free, although Followers do. If you want to pay someone to accompany you on adventures then you need read the section on Hirelings. All of this is covered on pages 104 to 107 in the DMG. Also note that, though this may just be my interpretation, whenever it says cohorts (plural), it never says more than one at the same time. You can attract as many cohorts as you'd like. But only one will stay. If it were only "one at a time" then there would be no need to use the plural to begin with. The very definition of a pluralized term is that it is referring to more than one. Your argument is that they state the plural (cohorts) and omit a temporal limit to the singular (X at a time), therefore it is singular (cohort). Even though there is no limit, multiple cohorts can quickly unbalance a game. Just be careful when doing so.
paladin2019 03-28-07, 01:51 AM	it can be fair depending on how the player plays it. One of the stereotypical characters is the "summoner" or someone who has a fair number of followers who do his bidding. While there is a limit to how many a player can handle and not take away from the other players, limiting them to just ONE character is unfair to those players who wish to play the "look at my minions cause i suck" stereotype. The difference between followers and summoned creatures and a cohort is that the first two are not full fledged characters entitled to an equal share of the DM's attention. Followers and summoned do what the controlling character directs as a simple extension of his actions. A cohort is a separate and distinct personality from its leader. To illustrate this another way, followers and summoned act on the controlling character's initiative, just like a mount or animal companion. A cohort is a separate character and so has its own initiative score. How many characters, as opposed to extensions of a character, does the DM want at the table?
Squall255 03-28-07, 10:11 AM	well, i always play cohorts as (to use your terms) "extensions of my character" granted they have their own initiative, but i tend to treat them as really strong summons/minions. maybe this is just me trying to play summoner in a game that has crap for summon spells. granted that this is not for every character, and I work hard with the DM to allow my cohort to be allowed (when I have one). I'm just trying to say that sometimes more than one cohort isn't bad. Twelve? that's probably a little overkill. but i could see two or three "generals" of a mini army of summonables. It's all just a matter of play style, and fitting into the campaign.
ninja1 03-28-07, 10:36 AM	If it were only "one at a time" then there would be no need to use the plural to begin with. I think there is a need for the use the plural tense if it is to address the number of cohorts that may be employed over the course of a character's lifetime. Cohorts may die or be dismissed. In this case, the plural statement may address the fact that once dead or dismissed, another cohort may be recruited as "there is limit to the number of cohorts that you can employ". I am also in the camp that believes that Leadership grants only one cohort at a time.
DreadArchon 03-28-07, 01:15 PM	I am also in the camp that believes that Leadership grants only one cohort at a time. As this thread progressed, I read the text again. I can almost see where the "multiple cohorts" camp comes from, actually. Still, I can't get past this line: You don’t consult the table to see if your cohort gains levels It's very much singular. They'd have used "cohorts" if it was possible to have more than one. (I'm also thinking that the wording in the PHB and Libris Mortis back me up a little better, but I don't have either with me.)