Lines and Explosive Spell feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lines and Explosive Spell feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
justaworm
11-08-07, 09:55 AM Where does someone caught by an explosive lightening bolt end up: at the end of the lightening bolt line or to the square immediately perpendicular to the line effect? Unforunately, the description for Explosive Spell isn't quite clear for line effect spells.

Basically, are the sides of a line effect spell considered a boundary for the effect for the purposes of Explosive Spell?
runestar
11-08-07, 10:03 AM They are moved the shortest possible distance possible. In this case, probably 5-ft perpendicular to the lightning bolt unless you happen to catch them in a 5-ft wide corridor...:P
RobbyPants
11-08-07, 10:15 AM They are moved the shortest possible distance possible. In this case, probably 5-ft perpendicular to the lightning bolt unless you happen to catch them in a 5-ft wide corridor...:P
I was thinking about that last week when I re-read Explosive Spell and Born of the Three Thunders. Someone had posted a combo with that and some spell from BoVD with a huge radius, going on about the damage potential.

I have to look again, but doesn't the feat just deal damage to you if you hit a wall as if you'd traveled the full distance? If that's the case, then wouldn't an explosive line-spell just slam you against the wall if you were in a 5-foot corridor? Also, I don't know that it'd deal any damage, as you take 1d6 for every ten feet you move.

Or I could be entirely wrong (AFB now) :P
justaworm
11-08-07, 10:28 AM That's what I was thinking too; I just wanted to make sure.

Based on the description, then, I have 2 questions to pose.

Is it possible to force someone to the very end of the line of effect (assuming they aren't in the last square)? For instance, if you cast the spell down a <5ft corridor?
Technically, the line of effect ends at the wall boundary perpendicular to the spell, and so that is the nearest boundary for the effect.
So, are they thrown to the side even when the space is 5' or less, or are they pushed to the end of the line?
To which side does the person get pushed when caught in a line? This could be very important in the case where there is a cliff on one side and an empty square on the other. Also, if they are in the very last square of the line effect, there could be a possible 3 squares they could be pushed into.
justaworm
11-08-07, 10:31 AM Oh yeah, and one more question.

If the area effect allows a reflex save for half damage, does the explosive spell feat still push them to the boundary?

(I can't remember at the moment of explosive spell had its own reflex save, so forgive me if it does.)
rironin
11-08-07, 10:44 AM Is it possible to force someone to the very end of the line of effect (assuming they aren't in the last square)? For instance, if you cast the spell down a <5ft corridor?
Technically, the line of effect ends at the wall boundary perpendicular to the spell, and so that is the nearest boundary for the effect.
So, are they thrown to the side even when the space is 5' or less, or are they pushed to the end of the line?The feat description says creatures "are pushed to the closest square outside the perimeter of the [spell area]." I believe that here the "closest square" refers to the closest square that the creature could occupy. In the case of a 5-foot wide corridor and an explosive lightning bolt, technically the "closest square outside the perimeter" is in the wall - which could be solid rock. I think we can agree that that's not how the feat should work, so I'd say that the creature would be blasted to the nearest open square. I would probably only rule that solid things like walls and such would prevent a creature from landing there - creatures could be blasted into squares already occupied by creatures, I would think.

One odd point here is that in most cases with the lightning bolt in the corridor, unless the creature is more than 60 feet away from you, the closest legal square that the creature could get blasted to is yours. If the corridor is long enough, chances are the creature would technically get blasted toward you. As a DM I might just rule that the explosive blast is projected from you outward in the case of a lightning bolt in a 5-foot wide corridor. They didn't really word this feat very well at all.

EDIT: I think I'm completely wrong, actually :P. First off, I was reading the fireball example, which is dumb because I forgot they give a lightning bolt example. Secondly, I didn't pay enough attention to "If some obstacle prevents a blasted creature from being moved to the edge of the effect, the creature is stopped and takes 1d6 points of damage from striking the barrier." I think it would be reasonable to rule that the creature always tries to take the shortest path, and if there's something in the way, it just stops and takes damage. In that case, the lightning bolt would blast the creature into the wall and deal 1d6 damage, and it would end up prone in the same square it started in. This makes some sense - otherwise, you'd have weird situations where if you dropped a fireball at a point 10 feet away from a wall, and there was a creature in between the wall and the fireball's point of origin, the creature would fly toward the point of origin, and out the other side, assuming that was the nearest open square in which it could actually land. That seems kind of silly to me - makes more sense to just get through back into the wall.

It seems like they created the feat with fireball and other spread spells in mind - in that case, the rule - the creature moves to the closest square that isn't part of the area of the effect - models an exploding fireball or other spread (spreads start at the center and explode outward) perfectly, but the simple rule doesn't really work well for things like lines.To which side does the person get pushed when caught in a line? This could be very important in the case where there is a cliff on one side and an empty square on the other. Also, if they are in the very last square of the line effect, there could be a possible 3 squares they could be pushed into.If I were the DM, I'd roll randomly to determine whether the creature was pushed left or right, assuming there was nothing in either potential square that would affect the outcome.
RobbyPants
11-08-07, 11:11 AM It seems like they created the feat with fireball and other spread spells in mind - in that case, the rule - the creature moves to the closest square that isn't part of the area of the effect - models an exploding fireball or other spread (spreads start at the center and explode outward) perfectly, but the simple rule doesn't really work well for things like lines.
I agree. The logic of the printed feat makes little sence for lines and cones, but makes perfect sense for spheres and bursts.

One thing to try (100% house-rule here) is to treat spheres and bursts as normal, but modify how the feat works for lines and cones. In these cases, draw a line from the source (probably the caster) to the target effected. They then travel down that line until they are either expelled from the AoE or they hit a wall. Here are a few sample pictures:
http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w139/robbypants/ExplosiveSpell.gif

Anyway, as I said, it's a house-rule, but it might be more intuitive. It certainly makes this feat more powerful for long lines though. I just think the idea is more intuitive in that all of the explosive "force" is coming from the spell's origin (the center in the case of a sphere or burst, or the caster in the case of a line or a cone). Take what you will from this. ;)
rironin
11-08-07, 11:15 AM I agree. The logic of the printed feat makes little sence for lines and cones, but makes perfect sense for spheres and bursts.Nice visual aids! That would be an interesting rule to implement - totally more intuitive, but I wonder if it'd be too strong.
RobbyPants
11-08-07, 12:02 PM Nice visual aids! That would be an interesting rule to implement - totally more intuitive, but I wonder if it'd be too strong.
Thanks.

I have a feeling it's a bit too much for lines, such as a Lightning Bolt. If you figure you can do about 13.5d6 damage with an empowered Lightning Bolt at 9th level (9d6 x 1.5), then compare it to an Explosive Lightning Bolt: You'll do 9d6 + 1d6 per 10 feet the target is forced back. Lightning Bolt affects a 120 foot line, so if the target is adjacent, it will do an extra 12d6 damage (more than Maximize Spell on average, for a slot one level lower!). Of course, this is a worst case scenario, but even if you're 30 feet away from your target, it will throw them 90 feet (9d6 damage).

I'd say you could increase the spell slot one level higher for lines, but that's more becaues the feat becomes more effective with larger areas. Using this house-rule for the feat, it drastically increases the "area" for a line.
justaworm
11-09-07, 12:08 PM Thanks guys.

I'm settled on getting blasted to the nearest open square perpendicular to their position in the line of effect; including a roll to determine which side of the line they blasted to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
justaworm 11-08-07, 09:55 AM	Where does someone caught by an explosive lightening bolt end up: at the end of the lightening bolt line or to the square immediately perpendicular to the line effect? Unforunately, the description for Explosive Spell isn't quite clear for line effect spells. Basically, are the sides of a line effect spell considered a boundary for the effect for the purposes of Explosive Spell?
runestar 11-08-07, 10:03 AM	They are moved the shortest possible distance possible. In this case, probably 5-ft perpendicular to the lightning bolt unless you happen to catch them in a 5-ft wide corridor...:P
RobbyPants 11-08-07, 10:15 AM	They are moved the shortest possible distance possible. In this case, probably 5-ft perpendicular to the lightning bolt unless you happen to catch them in a 5-ft wide corridor...:P I was thinking about that last week when I re-read Explosive Spell and Born of the Three Thunders. Someone had posted a combo with that and some spell from BoVD with a huge radius, going on about the damage potential. I have to look again, but doesn't the feat just deal damage to you if you hit a wall as if you'd traveled the full distance? If that's the case, then wouldn't an explosive line-spell just slam you against the wall if you were in a 5-foot corridor? Also, I don't know that it'd deal any damage, as you take 1d6 for every ten feet you move. Or I could be entirely wrong (AFB now) :P
justaworm 11-08-07, 10:28 AM	That's what I was thinking too; I just wanted to make sure. Based on the description, then, I have 2 questions to pose. Is it possible to force someone to the very end of the line of effect (assuming they aren't in the last square)? For instance, if you cast the spell down a <5ft corridor? Technically, the line of effect ends at the wall boundary perpendicular to the spell, and so that is the nearest boundary for the effect. So, are they thrown to the side even when the space is 5' or less, or are they pushed to the end of the line? To which side does the person get pushed when caught in a line? This could be very important in the case where there is a cliff on one side and an empty square on the other. Also, if they are in the very last square of the line effect, there could be a possible 3 squares they could be pushed into.
justaworm 11-08-07, 10:31 AM	Oh yeah, and one more question. If the area effect allows a reflex save for half damage, does the explosive spell feat still push them to the boundary? (I can't remember at the moment of explosive spell had its own reflex save, so forgive me if it does.)
rironin 11-08-07, 10:44 AM	Is it possible to force someone to the very end of the line of effect (assuming they aren't in the last square)? For instance, if you cast the spell down a <5ft corridor? Technically, the line of effect ends at the wall boundary perpendicular to the spell, and so that is the nearest boundary for the effect. So, are they thrown to the side even when the space is 5' or less, or are they pushed to the end of the line?The feat description says creatures "are pushed to the closest square outside the perimeter of the [spell area]." I believe that here the "closest square" refers to the closest square that the creature could occupy. In the case of a 5-foot wide corridor and an explosive lightning bolt, technically the "closest square outside the perimeter" is in the wall - which could be solid rock. I think we can agree that that's not how the feat should work, so I'd say that the creature would be blasted to the nearest open square. I would probably only rule that solid things like walls and such would prevent a creature from landing there - creatures could be blasted into squares already occupied by creatures, I would think. One odd point here is that in most cases with the lightning bolt in the corridor, unless the creature is more than 60 feet away from you, the closest legal square that the creature could get blasted to is yours. If the corridor is long enough, chances are the creature would technically get blasted toward you. As a DM I might just rule that the explosive blast is projected from you outward in the case of a lightning bolt in a 5-foot wide corridor. They didn't really word this feat very well at all. EDIT: I think I'm completely wrong, actually :P. First off, I was reading the fireball example, which is dumb because I forgot they give a lightning bolt example. Secondly, I didn't pay enough attention to "If some obstacle prevents a blasted creature from being moved to the edge of the effect, the creature is stopped and takes 1d6 points of damage from striking the barrier." I think it would be reasonable to rule that the creature always tries to take the shortest path, and if there's something in the way, it just stops and takes damage. In that case, the lightning bolt would blast the creature into the wall and deal 1d6 damage, and it would end up prone in the same square it started in. This makes some sense - otherwise, you'd have weird situations where if you dropped a fireball at a point 10 feet away from a wall, and there was a creature in between the wall and the fireball's point of origin, the creature would fly toward the point of origin, and out the other side, assuming that was the nearest open square in which it could actually land. That seems kind of silly to me - makes more sense to just get through back into the wall. It seems like they created the feat with fireball and other spread spells in mind - in that case, the rule - the creature moves to the closest square that isn't part of the area of the effect - models an exploding fireball or other spread (spreads start at the center and explode outward) perfectly, but the simple rule doesn't really work well for things like lines.To which side does the person get pushed when caught in a line? This could be very important in the case where there is a cliff on one side and an empty square on the other. Also, if they are in the very last square of the line effect, there could be a possible 3 squares they could be pushed into.If I were the DM, I'd roll randomly to determine whether the creature was pushed left or right, assuming there was nothing in either potential square that would affect the outcome.
RobbyPants 11-08-07, 11:11 AM	It seems like they created the feat with fireball and other spread spells in mind - in that case, the rule - the creature moves to the closest square that isn't part of the area of the effect - models an exploding fireball or other spread (spreads start at the center and explode outward) perfectly, but the simple rule doesn't really work well for things like lines. I agree. The logic of the printed feat makes little sence for lines and cones, but makes perfect sense for spheres and bursts. One thing to try (100% house-rule here) is to treat spheres and bursts as normal, but modify how the feat works for lines and cones. In these cases, draw a line from the source (probably the caster) to the target effected. They then travel down that line until they are either expelled from the AoE or they hit a wall. Here are a few sample pictures: http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w139/robbypants/ExplosiveSpell.gif Anyway, as I said, it's a house-rule, but it might be more intuitive. It certainly makes this feat more powerful for long lines though. I just think the idea is more intuitive in that all of the explosive "force" is coming from the spell's origin (the center in the case of a sphere or burst, or the caster in the case of a line or a cone). Take what you will from this. ;)
rironin 11-08-07, 11:15 AM	I agree. The logic of the printed feat makes little sence for lines and cones, but makes perfect sense for spheres and bursts.Nice visual aids! That would be an interesting rule to implement - totally more intuitive, but I wonder if it'd be too strong.
RobbyPants 11-08-07, 12:02 PM	Nice visual aids! That would be an interesting rule to implement - totally more intuitive, but I wonder if it'd be too strong. Thanks. I have a feeling it's a bit too much for lines, such as a Lightning Bolt. If you figure you can do about 13.5d6 damage with an empowered Lightning Bolt at 9th level (9d6 x 1.5), then compare it to an Explosive Lightning Bolt: You'll do 9d6 + 1d6 per 10 feet the target is forced back. Lightning Bolt affects a 120 foot line, so if the target is adjacent, it will do an extra 12d6 damage (more than Maximize Spell on average, for a slot one level lower!). Of course, this is a worst case scenario, but even if you're 30 feet away from your target, it will throw them 90 feet (9d6 damage). I'd say you could increase the spell slot one level higher for lines, but that's more becaues the feat becomes more effective with larger areas. Using this house-rule for the feat, it drastically increases the "area" for a line.
justaworm 11-09-07, 12:08 PM	Thanks guys. I'm settled on getting blasted to the nearest open square perpendicular to their position in the line of effect; including a roll to determine which side of the line they blasted to.