Lingering Strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lingering Strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheRealDeadEye
04-22-07, 12:13 PM Is Lingering Damage overpowered or am i missing something?
ok it's an epic feat, but it nearly doubles a rouge's dmg output

A high lvl rouge has around 10-13 d6 bonus sneak attack dmg, depending on gear and multiclassing ( rogue's vest, or assasins stance for example)

if i understand craven correctly the bonus dmg also counts as sneak attack dmg

given a total of let's say 12d6 + 21 sneak attack dmg per hit

a twf rouge with feats like robilars gambit and double hit + opportunist class feature can get an quite respactable amount of attacks per round
throw in some maneuvers like dancing or ragging mongoose to even increase that number.

so let's assume the rouge's lands avg. 4 hits per round (with help of another melee char flanking and hitting our opponent)

that would make a total of 4x(12d6 +21)=252 dmg on our next turn
of course this is nothing compared to builds from the CO-board but then this is a rather standard build
Bedevere
04-22-07, 03:45 PM This is Epic we are talking about.

Overpowered and broken come in at level 21 automatically.

Don't even ASK what happens beyond that. :P
TheRealDeadEye
04-22-07, 06:28 PM yeah i'know and it's not realy the dmg that bothers me, we all know what casters can do, it's the fact that one feat doubles your dmg output
you only miss the weapon dmg and for a normal rouge thats usually around 2d6
Bedevere
04-23-07, 03:25 AM An epic rogue who only deals 2d6 regular damage on an attack? What happened to his epic enchanted weapon?

Bear in mind how many things at that point in the game are immune to crits, and therefore sneak attack. This means that when a rogue CAN still do something, its a something that makes them worth playing still.
TheRealDeadEye
04-23-07, 06:15 AM well for a twf rogue i would recommend enchants like +5, than maybe shadow hand for an additonal +3 and stuff like wounding and speed, so his normal weapon dmg isn't realy that high

of course you can't sneak attack everything
but there are augment crystals that grant you sneak attack dmg against undead
and constructs in MIC, then of course there are spells like plant, grave and golem strike, bracers that allow you to sneak attack everything atleast a few times per day

and by the way i'm playing in a campaign where usually most foes are sneakable
of course we run into an ooze or an undead from time to time, but must opponents are humanoid demons or dragons

well since i play a rouge i of course understand your point, my problem is that the other chars in my party are far from optimized and i don't want to out shine them, i think it would be quite frustrating for our monk if his only job is to provide me with flanking options and an additional 2 attacks ( opportunist) cuz i would do more dmg with a single attack than he would do with a full attack
runestar
04-23-07, 06:44 AM At epic and higher lvs, you can pretty much expect a lot of your foes to be resistant or flat out immune to crits, be it naturally, templating or using magic gear like fortification armour and the like.

High potential damage gets offset by the low probability of you actually dealing that damage...;)
TheRealDeadEye
04-23-07, 07:03 AM if i remember correctly there is a feat that let you apply half your sneak attack dmg vs opponents immune to crits or something similar?
anyone know what it's called ?
planetouched
04-23-07, 08:07 AM Does no one realize that combat isn't aLL that matters? I mean, I see threads like this all the time, but a +kazillion to SA won't help you figure out the answer to a riddle. Alot of DMs turn to a Zelda style when characters become overpowered like this, making the monsters and bosses only vulnrable to their own attacks.
runestar
04-23-07, 09:58 AM Considering how epic monsters usually have hp in the high hundreds, I daresay that combat for most part still makes up an integral aspect of epic play. Besides, what's wrong with getting a chance to flex your newfound epic combat prowess?:)
TheRealDeadEye
04-23-07, 10:38 AM and by the way whe had our fair share of encounters which could not be resolved by combat and demanded some rather unorthodox methods and thinking outside the box, our dm has strange sense of humor, and things like gender changes are not that rare in our campaign ;-)
ninthlife
04-23-07, 11:04 AM Epic means "Overpowered".. besides,it's not always easy for a rougue getting her sneak attack damage against epic monster! For instance,think about the great damage reduction belongin to a common epic monster..it could be a serious trouble for a rogue!
TheRealDeadEye
04-23-07, 11:10 AM damage reduction is the one thing that doesn't trouble me when fighting epic monsters
if i can get sneak attacks my chars deals 16d6 +27 per hit that is quite much for a single hit so dmg reduction isn't realy an issue, getting sneak attacks however is
WinDReiN
04-23-07, 11:25 AM If your weapon doesn't deal dmg because of the DR, the sneak attack is negated, so DR can be an issue.
TheRealDeadEye
04-23-07, 11:40 AM oh didn't know that
well then i'll have to change some enchants on my weapons and get transmuting from MIC it's +2 bonus and changes your weapons to automaticly overcome a creatures DR, takes one round to attune to the creature you hit with the weapon
runestar
04-23-07, 01:08 PM If your weapon doesn't deal dmg because of the DR, the sneak attack is negated, so DR can be an issue.
Not really. You count all your damage(including sneak attack damage), then apply dr accordingly.

For example, a lv21 rogue fights a foe with dr 20/epic with a +5 rapier(for simplicity's sake). He deals 1d6+5+11d6 damage with a hit. So he rolls per normal, then subtracts 20 points(for dr) from the total damage he would deal. The rest of the damage goes through.:)
Aracor
04-23-07, 01:11 PM If your weapon doesn't deal dmg because of the DR, the sneak attack is negated, so DR can be an issue.

False. Sneak attack is added to damage for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, as it is damage typed the same as the damage of the weapon.
TheRealDeadEye
04-24-07, 01:36 AM Nobody knows the feat that let you apply half sneak attack dmg on a crit to foes normaly immune to sneak attacks? I could swear i read that a while a ago or did i just dreamed it ?:confused:
Egres
04-24-07, 03:10 AM Nobody knows the feat that let you apply half sneak attack dmg on a crit to foes normaly immune to sneak attacks? I could swear i read that a while a ago or did i just dreamed it ?:confused:

It's a rogue alternate class feature presented in Dungeonscape.
TheRealDeadEye
04-24-07, 08:57 AM thanks
It's even better than i rememberd
half sneak attack every time you flank, not just only on crits ;-)
combined with lingering dmg -> normal sneak attack dmg against foes immune to sneak attack, and double sneak attack to foes not immune, only exception would be opponents immune to sneak attack and to flanking, like another epic rouge with heavy fortification
WinDReiN
04-25-07, 07:31 AM Not really. You count all your damage(including sneak attack damage), then apply dr accordingly.

False. Sneak attack is added to damage for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, as it is damage typed the same as the damage of the weapon.

Is there a official ruling on this?
I figured since poison & disease don't go through DR, cause your weapon bounced off, sneak attack never happend.
I can see that if the monster healed right away that sneak could count in, you actualy hit the creature and it healed some dmg, but why doesn't the poison work then?
Aracor
04-25-07, 09:21 AM Is there a official ruling on this?
I figured since poison & disease don't go through DR, cause your weapon bounced off, sneak attack never happend.
I can see that if the monster healed right away that sneak could count in, you actualy hit the creature and it healed some dmg, but why doesn't the poison work then?It depends on the poison. Injury poison requires an actual injury, i.e. a way to get inside the body through the skin. If you've got your dagger loaded out with CONTACT poison, you don't need to do damage for the poison to work.

As for sneak attack, it's the same damage type as the weapon. Just like power attacking to help penetrate damage reduction, sneak attack allows you to find more vulnerable spots. Damage reduction will still apply, but enough damage will still hurt it.

This is outlined in the rules of the game article All about Sneak Attacks, part 3; listed here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a

A successful sneak attack increases the damage dealt. When you make a sneak attack against a foe with damage reduction, roll the sneak damage and add it to the damage from the hit before applying the effects of damage reduction.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheRealDeadEye 04-22-07, 12:13 PM	Is Lingering Damage overpowered or am i missing something? ok it's an epic feat, but it nearly doubles a rouge's dmg output A high lvl rouge has around 10-13 d6 bonus sneak attack dmg, depending on gear and multiclassing ( rogue's vest, or assasins stance for example) if i understand craven correctly the bonus dmg also counts as sneak attack dmg given a total of let's say 12d6 + 21 sneak attack dmg per hit a twf rouge with feats like robilars gambit and double hit + opportunist class feature can get an quite respactable amount of attacks per round throw in some maneuvers like dancing or ragging mongoose to even increase that number. so let's assume the rouge's lands avg. 4 hits per round (with help of another melee char flanking and hitting our opponent) that would make a total of 4x(12d6 +21)=252 dmg on our next turn of course this is nothing compared to builds from the CO-board but then this is a rather standard build
Bedevere 04-22-07, 03:45 PM	This is Epic we are talking about. Overpowered and broken come in at level 21 automatically. Don't even ASK what happens beyond that. :P
TheRealDeadEye 04-22-07, 06:28 PM	yeah i'know and it's not realy the dmg that bothers me, we all know what casters can do, it's the fact that one feat doubles your dmg output you only miss the weapon dmg and for a normal rouge thats usually around 2d6
Bedevere 04-23-07, 03:25 AM	An epic rogue who only deals 2d6 regular damage on an attack? What happened to his epic enchanted weapon? Bear in mind how many things at that point in the game are immune to crits, and therefore sneak attack. This means that when a rogue CAN still do something, its a something that makes them worth playing still.
TheRealDeadEye 04-23-07, 06:15 AM	well for a twf rogue i would recommend enchants like +5, than maybe shadow hand for an additonal +3 and stuff like wounding and speed, so his normal weapon dmg isn't realy that high of course you can't sneak attack everything but there are augment crystals that grant you sneak attack dmg against undead and constructs in MIC, then of course there are spells like plant, grave and golem strike, bracers that allow you to sneak attack everything atleast a few times per day and by the way i'm playing in a campaign where usually most foes are sneakable of course we run into an ooze or an undead from time to time, but must opponents are humanoid demons or dragons well since i play a rouge i of course understand your point, my problem is that the other chars in my party are far from optimized and i don't want to out shine them, i think it would be quite frustrating for our monk if his only job is to provide me with flanking options and an additional 2 attacks ( opportunist) cuz i would do more dmg with a single attack than he would do with a full attack
runestar 04-23-07, 06:44 AM	At epic and higher lvs, you can pretty much expect a lot of your foes to be resistant or flat out immune to crits, be it naturally, templating or using magic gear like fortification armour and the like. High potential damage gets offset by the low probability of you actually dealing that damage...;)
TheRealDeadEye 04-23-07, 07:03 AM	if i remember correctly there is a feat that let you apply half your sneak attack dmg vs opponents immune to crits or something similar? anyone know what it's called ?
planetouched 04-23-07, 08:07 AM	Does no one realize that combat isn't aLL that matters? I mean, I see threads like this all the time, but a +kazillion to SA won't help you figure out the answer to a riddle. Alot of DMs turn to a Zelda style when characters become overpowered like this, making the monsters and bosses only vulnrable to their own attacks.
runestar 04-23-07, 09:58 AM	Considering how epic monsters usually have hp in the high hundreds, I daresay that combat for most part still makes up an integral aspect of epic play. Besides, what's wrong with getting a chance to flex your newfound epic combat prowess?:)
TheRealDeadEye 04-23-07, 10:38 AM	and by the way whe had our fair share of encounters which could not be resolved by combat and demanded some rather unorthodox methods and thinking outside the box, our dm has strange sense of humor, and things like gender changes are not that rare in our campaign ;-)
ninthlife 04-23-07, 11:04 AM	Epic means "Overpowered".. besides,it's not always easy for a rougue getting her sneak attack damage against epic monster! For instance,think about the great damage reduction belongin to a common epic monster..it could be a serious trouble for a rogue!
TheRealDeadEye 04-23-07, 11:10 AM	damage reduction is the one thing that doesn't trouble me when fighting epic monsters if i can get sneak attacks my chars deals 16d6 +27 per hit that is quite much for a single hit so dmg reduction isn't realy an issue, getting sneak attacks however is
WinDReiN 04-23-07, 11:25 AM	If your weapon doesn't deal dmg because of the DR, the sneak attack is negated, so DR can be an issue.
TheRealDeadEye 04-23-07, 11:40 AM	oh didn't know that well then i'll have to change some enchants on my weapons and get transmuting from MIC it's +2 bonus and changes your weapons to automaticly overcome a creatures DR, takes one round to attune to the creature you hit with the weapon
runestar 04-23-07, 01:08 PM	If your weapon doesn't deal dmg because of the DR, the sneak attack is negated, so DR can be an issue. Not really. You count all your damage(including sneak attack damage), then apply dr accordingly. For example, a lv21 rogue fights a foe with dr 20/epic with a +5 rapier(for simplicity's sake). He deals 1d6+5+11d6 damage with a hit. So he rolls per normal, then subtracts 20 points(for dr) from the total damage he would deal. The rest of the damage goes through.:)
Aracor 04-23-07, 01:11 PM	If your weapon doesn't deal dmg because of the DR, the sneak attack is negated, so DR can be an issue. False. Sneak attack is added to damage for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, as it is damage typed the same as the damage of the weapon.
TheRealDeadEye 04-24-07, 01:36 AM	Nobody knows the feat that let you apply half sneak attack dmg on a crit to foes normaly immune to sneak attacks? I could swear i read that a while a ago or did i just dreamed it ?:confused:
Egres 04-24-07, 03:10 AM	Nobody knows the feat that let you apply half sneak attack dmg on a crit to foes normaly immune to sneak attacks? I could swear i read that a while a ago or did i just dreamed it ?:confused: It's a rogue alternate class feature presented in Dungeonscape.
TheRealDeadEye 04-24-07, 08:57 AM	thanks It's even better than i rememberd half sneak attack every time you flank, not just only on crits ;-) combined with lingering dmg -> normal sneak attack dmg against foes immune to sneak attack, and double sneak attack to foes not immune, only exception would be opponents immune to sneak attack and to flanking, like another epic rouge with heavy fortification
WinDReiN 04-25-07, 07:31 AM	Not really. You count all your damage(including sneak attack damage), then apply dr accordingly. False. Sneak attack is added to damage for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, as it is damage typed the same as the damage of the weapon. Is there a official ruling on this? I figured since poison & disease don't go through DR, cause your weapon bounced off, sneak attack never happend. I can see that if the monster healed right away that sneak could count in, you actualy hit the creature and it healed some dmg, but why doesn't the poison work then?
Aracor 04-25-07, 09:21 AM	Is there a official ruling on this? I figured since poison & disease don't go through DR, cause your weapon bounced off, sneak attack never happend. I can see that if the monster healed right away that sneak could count in, you actualy hit the creature and it healed some dmg, but why doesn't the poison work then?It depends on the poison. Injury poison requires an actual injury, i.e. a way to get inside the body through the skin. If you've got your dagger loaded out with CONTACT poison, you don't need to do damage for the poison to work. As for sneak attack, it's the same damage type as the weapon. Just like power attacking to help penetrate damage reduction, sneak attack allows you to find more vulnerable spots. Damage reduction will still apply, but enough damage will still hurt it. This is outlined in the rules of the game article All about Sneak Attacks, part 3; listed here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a A successful sneak attack increases the damage dealt. When you make a sneak attack against a foe with damage reduction, roll the sneak damage and add it to the damage from the hit before applying the effects of damage reduction.