Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KarasDjun 02-28-07, 12:47 PM	Stupid Question. I recently rolled up a paladin and dumped the 6 score in Intelligence. This gives him a -2 modifier. Paladins get 2 skill points per level. As a human, he gets 4 added points (or +1 per level, then times 4 at 1st level). My question is, since his Int modifier basically cancels out his bonus for being human and reduces him to 1 skill point, does he start with 4 skill points or 8 skill points? METHOD 1: Modify the skill points by race AND Int at the same time, then apply the x4 for 1st level. (2+1 human -2 Int) = 1 x 4 = 4 skill points. From now on he gains only 1 skill point per level. OR METHOD 2: Modify the skill points for Int only, apply the x4, then add in the bonus skill points for human. (2 -2 Int) = 0, raise to 1 as minimum x 4 = 4 skill points + 4 bonus human skill points = 8 skill points. From now on he gains 2 skill points per level. There should be more examples of low Int humans in the skill sections since they break the rules. So, which method do I use? The book seems to suggest I use METHOD 2 but I can't locate any backing evidence... KarasDjun
DarkRhystar 02-28-07, 01:27 PM	All races (except Humans) get at least 1 skill point per level and 4 at 1st level. Humans get at least 2 skill points per level and 8 at 1st level. Pertinent information can be found on page 62 of the PhB under the "Acquiring Skills at 1st Level" heading.
Loki5654 02-28-07, 01:29 PM	No matter how large your INT negative modifier may be, you always get 1 skill point per level. So your first level paladin would get 5 skill points. (2 + -2)x4 (minimum 1) plus the four bonus points for being human. At levels beyond that (assuming your INT does not change) you would get 2 skill point per level. 2 + -2, minimum 1 plus the one bonus point for being human.
KarasDjun 02-28-07, 02:31 PM	All races (except Humans) get at least 1 skill point per level and 4 at 1st level. Humans get at least 2 skill points per level and 8 at 1st level. Pertinent information can be found on page 62 of the PhB under the "Acquiring Skills at 1st Level" heading. Actually, this "pertinent" information is confusing and misleading. For years I've used the method I listed as METHOD 1, but the book seems to be stating otherwise. If the added points are separate and always applied at the end of any calculation, this should have been stated. A complete moron human (Int 3) with a -4 modifier (not really a playable character, but bear with me) has the same skill options as a character with a 9 Int (-1 modifier) if they pick one of the 2-skill-point classes. The only difference here being that the modifiers for Int skills will suffer more of a penalty. Does this really make sense....? KarasDjun
ShinAkuma2 02-28-07, 02:52 PM	It's a balance issue that guarantees that 1) everyone gets at least 1 skill point per level, and 2) humans are always a little more adaptable than other races at the same Int level.
KarasDjun 02-28-07, 02:54 PM	No matter how large your INT negative modifier may be, you always get 1 skill point per level. So your first level paladin would get 5 skill points. (2 + -2)x4 (minimum 1) plus the four bonus points for being human. At levels beyond that (assuming your INT does not change) you would get 2 skill point per level. 2 + -2, minimum 1 plus the one bonus point for being human. I'm pretty sure your method is incorrect. The rules clearly state that you apply modifiers, bring low values up to one, and THEN multiply by 4. You can thus never have a value less than 4. My question is whether you apply the human bonus point/level before multiplying, or whether you simply tack 4 points on after multiplying. It seems that the rules favor the latter although it isn't explicitly stated. KarasDjun
gelalshawr 02-28-07, 02:57 PM	No matter how large your INT negative modifier may be, you always get 1 skill point per level. So your first level paladin would get 5 skill points. (2 + -2)x4 (minimum 1) plus the four bonus points for being human. not quite correct, at first level that formula should read (2 + -2) (minimum 1) x4
Vegepygmy 02-28-07, 02:58 PM	Good catch, KarasDjun. Loki5654 is indeed mistaken. The OP's 1st-level paladin would have 8 skill points at 1st level.
Loki5654 02-28-07, 03:03 PM	I'm pretty sure your method is incorrect. not quite correct, Loki5654 is indeed mistaken. I'm not quite ready to admit I'm wrong, yet. I'm also not ready to admit you are right, either. Would any of you care to back up these claims with rules quotes, or is this just a case of "We're choosing to look at it this way because it benefits us"?
Shadowfax7 02-28-07, 03:06 PM	So your first level paladin would get 5 skill points. (2 + -2)x4 (minimum 1) plus the four bonus points for being human. That should be 8 skill points; [(2 + -2) (min 1) x4] +4 = 8. This is supported by the skill points of low-int creatures in the MM.
Loki5654 02-28-07, 03:09 PM	This is supported by the values for low-int creatures in the MM. Ah, thank you! I much prefer an answer that incorporates both "You are wrong" and "Here's why" to an answer that is just "You are wrong." Point conceded.