Luck of Heroes feat broken? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Luck of Heroes feat broken? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Laerekh_Jaelre
08-28-07, 03:45 PM Is the Luck of Heroes Regional feat broken in 3.5? Moreso than in 3.0?

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0)
Luck of Heroes [General] (but labeled as a Regional feat?)
Benefit: You receive a +1 luck bonus on all saving throws.

Player's Guide to Faerun (3.5)
Luck of Heroes [Regional]
Benefit: You receive a +1 luck bonus to all saving throws and a +1 luck bonus to Armor Class

In 3.0 I was debating whether the Luck of Heroes feat was slightly broken. Yes it is a feat you must take at first level, but I'd argue it is slightly better than Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Lightening Reflexes, because instead of adding a +2 points to your overall saving throws, you are adding a +3. The game developers were stepping away from formulas to weight these things out, and play testing instead to get the right numbers, so I figured they knew what they were doing.

Then 3.5 comes and they add +1 luck bonus to Armor Class to the feat. I argue the +1 luck bonuse to AC alone overpowers the Dodge feat. (+1 AC to a single opponent). Plus they still get the +1 to all saves. What was the logic in adding this extra ability? Here is the way I see it:

Luck of Heroes > Dodge + Great Fort./Iron Will/Lightening Ref.

One of my PCs took the Luck of Heroes feat at 1st level while another took Dodge. How is this balanced/fair?
Meep326
08-28-07, 03:50 PM Luck bonuses don't stack.
Duelpersonality
08-28-07, 03:53 PM The PGtF out and out tells you that regional feats are better than normal feats. That is why a character can only select one, only from the region they come from, and only at first level. Luck of Heroes is a great feat if you can get it. It (along with all the other regional feats) are meant to help a player tie his or her character into the FRCS.

As far as it being broken, I don't find it to be so. A +1 bonus to anything will generally only increase your chances of success (or your enemy's chance of failure) by a very small amount.

Edit: As far as the other player, what prevented them from selecting a regional feat?
Cosmetor
08-28-07, 03:53 PM It's from Forgotten Realms, I'm not surprised that it's broken/overpowered.
wonlee76
08-28-07, 03:53 PM One of my PCs took the Luck of Heroes feat at 1st level while another took Dodge. How is this balanced/fair?

Two lines of thought on regional feats.

They are intentionally made more powerful then regular feats because of the restrictions on regional feats (ie. PC from that region and must be taken at level 1).

The 2nd issue, Dodge is a feat that is a pre-req for other "better" feats and/or prestige classes. On sheer benefit, Luck of Heroes is better but Luck of Heroes doens't help the PC qualify for Mobility/Spring Attack or some prestige class that has Dodge as a Pre-req feat.
ToastedAmphibian
08-28-07, 03:54 PM Luck bonuses don't stack.

How often does someone, in a normal situation, have the problem of too many luck bonuses to armor class? I guess bards give a luck bonus to armor class with some song perhapes, but isnt it more often a moral or a competence bonus to armor class or other abilites from bards?
Thraxious
08-28-07, 03:55 PM One of my PCs took the Luck of Heroes feat at 1st level while another took Dodge. How is this balanced/fair?

Stand alone the Luck of Heroes is just plain better then Dodge. However Dodge is also a pre-req to other feats so it is a mistake to judge them in the same way. There are many other feats that serve as pre-reqs which seem laughable compared to others ... but ya still end up taking them to get to the better ones down the road.
Illithid_Tentacles
08-28-07, 04:00 PM It's from Forgotten Realms, I'm not surprised that it's broken/overpowered.

This.
Meep326
08-28-07, 04:03 PM How often does someone, in a normal situation, have the problem of too many luck bonuses to armor class? I guess bards give a luck bonus to armor class with some song perhapes, but isnt it more often a moral or a competence bonus to armor class or other abilites from bards?
Yes, but at higher levels (where feats have a higher impact) you'll have wasted a feat that prolly would've been better used somewhere else.
Mousse
08-28-07, 04:33 PM Plain and simple, no. Its a strong feat, that's all.
ToastedAmphibian
08-28-07, 06:11 PM Yes, but at higher levels (where feats have a higher impact) you'll have wasted a feat that prolly would've been better used somewhere else.

Que?
Im just trying to figure out why you think its important that luck bonouses dont stack. I mean sure, divine bonuses dont stack either, but it dosnt really come up all that often. Usually the fact that something is a divine bonous (Or some other odd bonus type) is a benefit as it is more likly to stack with other things. Sure it wont ALWAYS stack like a dodge bonus will, but it will ALWAYS work, even when flat footed, which a dodge bonus wont, so all and all id say dodge bonus and luck bonus are about equal....
Witch
08-28-07, 06:24 PM A combination of several of the things that have been said:

a) Dodge sucks.
b) Dodge is largely meant as a prerequisite for better things.
c) Forgotten Realms material is not particularly renowned for balance.
d) Dodge bonuses stack, luck bonuses do not.
Kouk
08-28-07, 06:36 PM The PGtF out and out tells you that regional feats are better than normal feats. That is why a character can only select one, only from the region they come from, and only at first level. Luck of Heroes is a great feat if you can get it. It (along with all the other regional feats) are meant to help a player tie his or her character into the FRCS.

As far as it being broken, I don't find it to be so. A +1 bonus to anything will generally only increase your chances of success (or your enemy's chance of failure) by a very small amount.

Edit: As far as the other player, what prevented them from selecting a regional feat?

I like this answer.

It's from Forgotten Realms, I'm not surprised that it's broken/overpowered.

Yeah? What about Action Points? Those seem pretty strong too, and they don't come from FR....
Balthanon
08-28-07, 07:33 PM Que?
Im just trying to figure out why you think its important that luck bonouses dont stack.

Addressing the stacking in particular, at higher levels, magic items come into play, such as the stone of good luck, which does the same thing as the save bonus part of the feat plus a bit more. A luck sword also does the same thing and it is possible that luck would be used for AC as well. At that point, your feat is suddenly much less useful.

No one is going to argue that it is a very useful feat, particularly at low levels where both AC and save bonuses are hard to come by. However, over time that Dodge bonus is likely to stay useful for longer.
Nom
08-28-07, 09:01 PM prayer also grants luck bonuses (though not to AC).
Cifer
08-29-07, 03:18 PM Yeah? What about Action Points? Those seem pretty strong too, and they don't come from FR....
They're supposed to be strong in order to facilitate cinematic/pulpy roleplay, an expressed goal of the campaign world they're from.

Back to topic: There are lots of things that do exactly the same thing for seemingly different prices. Compare, for example, the Improved Critical with Keen (the +1 enhancement), Keen Blade or even an item casting Keen Blade - a feat against a weapon enhancement against a spell against an item. Which one is the least expensive way to improve your threat range?
For a fighter, it's probably Improved Critical - you've got enough feats to throw around and that funny PrC you're aiming for needs it anyway.
A rogue might prefer the Keen enhancement since the majority of his damage doesn't come from his weapon anyway so he has enhancement "slots" to spare.
A group with a high level wizard may let that wizard use his "lowly" 3rd level slot to cast Keen Edge - and an artificer might just create an item capable of casting the spell on its own, using his feats to cheapen the construction, since he'd rather pile different enhancements on his weapons.

So what is the cheapest way to get an improved threat range?

Here, it's the same thing: Luck of Heroes is practical to build up allround competency, but is that what you're aiming for? Is the succubus seducing the fighter by one point hindered by the fighter saying "B-but I've got a better reflex save too!"?
Jaxgaret
08-29-07, 04:29 PM +1 to all three saves is not inherently [+1] better than +2 to a single save - if you select a +2 save feat, it is invariably either to your worst save or as a pre-req. The +1 affects all three saves, even your best save(s), and doesn't satisfy any pre-reqs.

Not to mention that the +2 save feats are underpowered anyway. As is Dodge.

All in all, Luck of Heroes is a nice feat, but nowhere even in the vicinity of broken/overpowered.
Johnny_Angel
08-29-07, 08:22 PM Why not take Luck of Heroes and one of the other +2 feats? That's +3 to one of your saves at first level.

I don't think it's a broken feat. It's good, but far from broken. As has been mentioned, +1 to three saves isn't always better than +2 to one save. A 1st level fighter would probably benefit more from a +2 to his will save than he would from a +1 all of his saves (including Fort-which is already good.)

It's a good feat, but I don't feel it's broken.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Laerekh_Jaelre 08-28-07, 03:45 PM	Is the Luck of Heroes Regional feat broken in 3.5? Moreso than in 3.0? Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) Luck of Heroes [General] (but labeled as a Regional feat?) Benefit: You receive a +1 luck bonus on all saving throws. Player's Guide to Faerun (3.5) Luck of Heroes [Regional] Benefit: You receive a +1 luck bonus to all saving throws and a +1 luck bonus to Armor Class In 3.0 I was debating whether the Luck of Heroes feat was slightly broken. Yes it is a feat you must take at first level, but I'd argue it is slightly better than Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Lightening Reflexes, because instead of adding a +2 points to your overall saving throws, you are adding a +3. The game developers were stepping away from formulas to weight these things out, and play testing instead to get the right numbers, so I figured they knew what they were doing. Then 3.5 comes and they add +1 luck bonus to Armor Class to the feat. I argue the +1 luck bonuse to AC alone overpowers the Dodge feat. (+1 AC to a single opponent). Plus they still get the +1 to all saves. What was the logic in adding this extra ability? Here is the way I see it: Luck of Heroes > Dodge + Great Fort./Iron Will/Lightening Ref. One of my PCs took the Luck of Heroes feat at 1st level while another took Dodge. How is this balanced/fair?
Meep326 08-28-07, 03:50 PM	Luck bonuses don't stack.
Duelpersonality 08-28-07, 03:53 PM	The PGtF out and out tells you that regional feats are better than normal feats. That is why a character can only select one, only from the region they come from, and only at first level. Luck of Heroes is a great feat if you can get it. It (along with all the other regional feats) are meant to help a player tie his or her character into the FRCS. As far as it being broken, I don't find it to be so. A +1 bonus to anything will generally only increase your chances of success (or your enemy's chance of failure) by a very small amount. Edit: As far as the other player, what prevented them from selecting a regional feat?
Cosmetor 08-28-07, 03:53 PM	It's from Forgotten Realms, I'm not surprised that it's broken/overpowered.
wonlee76 08-28-07, 03:53 PM	One of my PCs took the Luck of Heroes feat at 1st level while another took Dodge. How is this balanced/fair? Two lines of thought on regional feats. They are intentionally made more powerful then regular feats because of the restrictions on regional feats (ie. PC from that region and must be taken at level 1). The 2nd issue, Dodge is a feat that is a pre-req for other "better" feats and/or prestige classes. On sheer benefit, Luck of Heroes is better but Luck of Heroes doens't help the PC qualify for Mobility/Spring Attack or some prestige class that has Dodge as a Pre-req feat.
ToastedAmphibian 08-28-07, 03:54 PM	Luck bonuses don't stack. How often does someone, in a normal situation, have the problem of too many luck bonuses to armor class? I guess bards give a luck bonus to armor class with some song perhapes, but isnt it more often a moral or a competence bonus to armor class or other abilites from bards?
Thraxious 08-28-07, 03:55 PM	One of my PCs took the Luck of Heroes feat at 1st level while another took Dodge. How is this balanced/fair? Stand alone the Luck of Heroes is just plain better then Dodge. However Dodge is also a pre-req to other feats so it is a mistake to judge them in the same way. There are many other feats that serve as pre-reqs which seem laughable compared to others ... but ya still end up taking them to get to the better ones down the road.
Illithid_Tentacles 08-28-07, 04:00 PM	It's from Forgotten Realms, I'm not surprised that it's broken/overpowered. This.
Meep326 08-28-07, 04:03 PM	How often does someone, in a normal situation, have the problem of too many luck bonuses to armor class? I guess bards give a luck bonus to armor class with some song perhapes, but isnt it more often a moral or a competence bonus to armor class or other abilites from bards? Yes, but at higher levels (where feats have a higher impact) you'll have wasted a feat that prolly would've been better used somewhere else.
Mousse 08-28-07, 04:33 PM	Plain and simple, no. Its a strong feat, that's all.
ToastedAmphibian 08-28-07, 06:11 PM	Yes, but at higher levels (where feats have a higher impact) you'll have wasted a feat that prolly would've been better used somewhere else. Que? Im just trying to figure out why you think its important that luck bonouses dont stack. I mean sure, divine bonuses dont stack either, but it dosnt really come up all that often. Usually the fact that something is a divine bonous (Or some other odd bonus type) is a benefit as it is more likly to stack with other things. Sure it wont ALWAYS stack like a dodge bonus will, but it will ALWAYS work, even when flat footed, which a dodge bonus wont, so all and all id say dodge bonus and luck bonus are about equal....
Witch 08-28-07, 06:24 PM	A combination of several of the things that have been said: a) Dodge sucks. b) Dodge is largely meant as a prerequisite for better things. c) Forgotten Realms material is not particularly renowned for balance. d) Dodge bonuses stack, luck bonuses do not.
Kouk 08-28-07, 06:36 PM	The PGtF out and out tells you that regional feats are better than normal feats. That is why a character can only select one, only from the region they come from, and only at first level. Luck of Heroes is a great feat if you can get it. It (along with all the other regional feats) are meant to help a player tie his or her character into the FRCS. As far as it being broken, I don't find it to be so. A +1 bonus to anything will generally only increase your chances of success (or your enemy's chance of failure) by a very small amount. Edit: As far as the other player, what prevented them from selecting a regional feat? I like this answer. It's from Forgotten Realms, I'm not surprised that it's broken/overpowered. Yeah? What about Action Points? Those seem pretty strong too, and they don't come from FR....
Balthanon 08-28-07, 07:33 PM	Que? Im just trying to figure out why you think its important that luck bonouses dont stack. Addressing the stacking in particular, at higher levels, magic items come into play, such as the stone of good luck, which does the same thing as the save bonus part of the feat plus a bit more. A luck sword also does the same thing and it is possible that luck would be used for AC as well. At that point, your feat is suddenly much less useful. No one is going to argue that it is a very useful feat, particularly at low levels where both AC and save bonuses are hard to come by. However, over time that Dodge bonus is likely to stay useful for longer.
Nom 08-28-07, 09:01 PM	prayer also grants luck bonuses (though not to AC).
Cifer 08-29-07, 03:18 PM	Yeah? What about Action Points? Those seem pretty strong too, and they don't come from FR.... They're supposed to be strong in order to facilitate cinematic/pulpy roleplay, an expressed goal of the campaign world they're from. Back to topic: There are lots of things that do exactly the same thing for seemingly different prices. Compare, for example, the Improved Critical with Keen (the +1 enhancement), Keen Blade or even an item casting Keen Blade - a feat against a weapon enhancement against a spell against an item. Which one is the least expensive way to improve your threat range? For a fighter, it's probably Improved Critical - you've got enough feats to throw around and that funny PrC you're aiming for needs it anyway. A rogue might prefer the Keen enhancement since the majority of his damage doesn't come from his weapon anyway so he has enhancement "slots" to spare. A group with a high level wizard may let that wizard use his "lowly" 3rd level slot to cast Keen Edge - and an artificer might just create an item capable of casting the spell on its own, using his feats to cheapen the construction, since he'd rather pile different enhancements on his weapons. So what is the cheapest way to get an improved threat range? Here, it's the same thing: Luck of Heroes is practical to build up allround competency, but is that what you're aiming for? Is the succubus seducing the fighter by one point hindered by the fighter saying "B-but I've got a better reflex save too!"?
Jaxgaret 08-29-07, 04:29 PM	+1 to all three saves is not inherently [+1] better than +2 to a single save - if you select a +2 save feat, it is invariably either to your worst save or as a pre-req. The +1 affects all three saves, even your best save(s), and doesn't satisfy any pre-reqs. Not to mention that the +2 save feats are underpowered anyway. As is Dodge. All in all, Luck of Heroes is a nice feat, but nowhere even in the vicinity of broken/overpowered.
Johnny_Angel 08-29-07, 08:22 PM	Why not take Luck of Heroes and one of the other +2 feats? That's +3 to one of your saves at first level. I don't think it's a broken feat. It's good, but far from broken. As has been mentioned, +1 to three saves isn't always better than +2 to one save. A 1st level fighter would probably benefit more from a +2 to his will save than he would from a +1 all of his saves (including Fort-which is already good.) It's a good feat, but I don't feel it's broken.