Mage slayer Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mage slayer Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hideous Phidias
01-04-08, 01:46 AM This maybe an old question or argument, but I am thinking of being a character that specializes in killing mages, why did they feel the need to change this feat. It first appeared in the Miniatures Handbook then later again in Complete Arcane

Miniatures Handbook version of Mage Slayer
Mage Slayer [General]
You have studied the ways and weaknesses of spellcasters and
can time your attacks and defenses against them expertly.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 2 ranks, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all Will saving throws. Spellcasters
you threaten may not cast defensively. (They automatically
fail Concentration checks to do so.)

Complete Arcane version of Mage Slayer
MAGE SLAYER
You have studied the ways and weaknesses of spellcasters and
can time your attacks and defenses against them expertly.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 2 ranks, base attack bonus +3.
Benefi t: You gain a +1 bonus on Will saving throws.
Spellcasters you threaten may not cast defensively (they
automatically fail their Concentration checks to do so), but
they are aware that they cannot cast defensively while being
threatened by a character with this feat.
Special: Taking this feat reduces your caster level for all
your spells and spell-like abilities by 4.

My problem is the -4 to your caster level they felt the need to add. It makes no sense, why would your spell power go down for learning to fight other casters. There is no good reason for it it make it only good for fighters and monks to take. I sorry but the best person to fight a mage is mage or caster. Could some on explain it to me please.
Dalzig
01-04-08, 02:11 AM Honing your bodies resistance to magic doesn't lend itself well to channeling magic through your body.

Besides, this feat isn't really meant for spellcasters. They already have generally excellent will saves, can use counterspells, and should never be directly threatening another opponent.
Hideous Phidias
01-04-08, 02:23 AM Honing your bodies resistance to magic doesn't lend itself well to channeling magic through your body.

Besides, this feat isn't really meant for spellcasters. They already have generally excellent will saves, can use counterspells, and should never be directly threatening another opponent.

A duckblade, hexblade or a warlock with this feat kicks but the negative to caster level is to high a price to pay for the ability. The feat says nothing about honing you body, it says that you are learned in the ways caster cast defensively and are train to counter it so that they no longer can cast defensively. The feat also says that they no you have this training. This means they can take other action to avoid the attack of opportunity, which seems to be more than enough to make this feat balanced. The -4 to you caster level has nothing to do with resisting others magic other wise spell resistance would have an effect like this negative to caster level.
Novacat
01-04-08, 02:46 AM Since when does something have to make sense to be added for balance in D&D?

But seriously, if you take the Practiced Spellcaster feat, it will counteract the -4 CL penalty.
Hideous Phidias
01-04-08, 03:00 AM Since when does something have to make sense to be added for balance in D&D?

But seriously, if you take the Practiced Spellcaster feat, it will counteract the -4 CL penalty.

I don't know about how your group plays but mine looks for at least some logic in the rule and if there is none then we say "F" it and try to come up with something that make sense and has logic to it. The old adage "a wizard did it" work for me. And that is my point why should a player have to take a feat to counter act the non-need counterpoint of another.

And the sad part is if you want to play RAW the practiced spell caster only works for the hexblade; and only for three of the four levels lost. For th feat to work fully, you need four level or hitdie that done not give you a caster levelthat you are using the feat for.
VengefulGazeofGod
01-04-08, 04:36 AM The easiest solution is to use the original printing of the feat. How hard is that? Just ignore the Complete Arcane printing and get on with your life.
:cool:
mplindustries
01-04-08, 04:51 AM I don't know about how your group plays but mine looks for at least some logic in the rule and if there is none then we say "F" it and try to come up with something that make sense and has logic to it. The old adage "a wizard did it" work for me. And that is my point why should a player have to take a feat to counter act the non-need counterpoint of another.

And the sad part is if you want to play RAW the practiced spell caster only works for the hexblade; and only for three of the four levels lost. For th feat to work fully, you need four level or hitdie that done not give you a caster levelthat you are using the feat for.

This makes me wonder if you are handling caster level correctly. Just to clarify, Mage Slayer reduces your caster level by 4, and Practiced Spellcaster raises it by 4 (up to a max of your Hit Dice).

So, if your caster level is X:
X - 4 + 4 = X

Why can only hexblades use this? A level 5 Duskblade for example, has a caster level of 5.
5 - 4 + 4 = 5

5 isn't higher than his HD, so I see no issue. Additionally, you get to choose what order the modifiers apply, so even if you were a cleric with the Healing Domain, you could choose to apply the +1 CL to healing spells after you add the practiced spellcaster bonus. This was all handled in the Sage advice about Wild Mage and Practiced Spellcaster.

So yeah, not only would a Hexblade get to benefit from the full +4 caster levels if he took Practiced Spellcaster and Mage Slayer, since a Hexblade's caster level is equal to half of his class level, he could get the full +4 CL boost even without Mageslayer, as long as he was level 8 or more (as could any half CL caster like paladin or ranger).

A level 8 Hexblade has a caster level of 4, but 8 HD, so with Practiced Spellcaster, he'd bring his CL up to 8.

As far as why they added the -4 thing, I am positive that it is simply a balance issue. Spellcasters are already very powerful, and most gishes can melee better than "regular" melee classes. Additionally, the best way to increase your threatened area and thus how easily you can gain the benefits of Mage Slayer is through magic.

Thunderlance comes to mind as probably the easiest way to get 20' of reach, AND you get to use your casting stat in place of strength. AND you get a free dispel against force effects when you hit with it. Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, etc. are all powerful ways to increase your reach, and a -4 to Caster Level means that you might not ALWAYS take this feat. Hell, with two size increases, you threaten 30' with a reach weapon and that means most casters can't even eat the AoO from movement to get out of your threatened area to get the spell off.

Oh, and it requires 2 ranks of spellcraft, which is a cross-class skill for almost anyone who doesn't have caster levels.

So yeah, in the end, its pretty much just a balance issue. There isn't really a good, logical, in game reason for it reducing your caster level, but then, there isn't really a good, logical, in game reason for a 6' tall man taking up a 5' cube of space, or an old man who just happens to be a higher level surviving a blow that would instantly kill a healthy young adult farmer, so I think you might want to let it slide.
Hideous Phidias
01-04-08, 07:19 AM The easiest solution is to use the original printing of the feat. How hard is that? Just ignore the Complete Arcane printing and get on with your life.
:cool:

I sorry but telling someone to get on with their live because they took a few minutes to post an question/argument about a feat in a forum that is made for that is a bit rude in my book. I was looking for someone to give on good reason for the -4 CL to be part of the feat in 3.5.

As for the practiced spellcaster feat My feeling is that if the class you have gives you spells from first to twenty then the feat is little use unless you mulit-class for four levels or less. The feat is abut hitdie with out a caster level and you still get you spells for those levels so practiced spellcaster does not work to counter the -4 CL.
Hsien
01-04-08, 10:49 AM Novacat did provide the answer, which conforms to why there was a need for 3.5; overall game balance.

That doesn't mean that the Mini version is unbalanced in your campaign, just that for general 3.5 game balance the designer thought that change was necesary.
Novacat
01-04-08, 10:49 AM As for the practiced spellcaster feat My feeling is that if the class you have gives you spells from first to twenty then the feat is little use unless you mulit-class for four levels or less. The feat is abut hitdie with out a caster level and you still get you spells for those levels so practiced spellcaster does not work to counter the -4 CL.
Well, you're wrong about that, but without quoting the entire feat (which I'm not allowed to do), it would be hard to prove. The basic feat is just +4 caster level. Most of the feat's description is provisions about when that feat does not apply, and giving an example of a multiclass character who uses it. No where does it require multiclassing or lack of full spellcasting progression.

Whether or not it makes sense isn't the point. The -4 penalty to CL is in place because it's a harsh penalty for spellcasters who wish to take it. It's a penalty motivator, just like arcane spell failure is a penalty motivator for wearing armor. It's a feat intended for non-casters, and if a caster wishes to take it, he must pay a hefty toll.
Orenmir
01-04-08, 10:51 AM I agree with a previous poster that stated the -4 casting is for game balance. Having this feat in the hands of most casters is too powerful when combined with spells that already can counter magic well on their own.

As for fluff... I think the name "Mage Slayer" itself depicts a power that should be used by someone who hates casters and wants to slay them (a la the Occult Slayer PrC). If you hate casters and want to slay them all, you shouldn't be a caster yourself -- if you are, you deserve a penalty. (Of course, that's all fluff, and mutable.)
Dispater24
01-04-08, 11:13 AM The feats Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment all reduce your caster level by 4.

If you have all your caster level is reduced by 12.

All are in Complete Arcane.
TifRhal
01-04-08, 01:15 PM The feats Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment all reduce your caster level by 4.

If you have all your caster level is reduced by 12.

All are in Complete Arcane.

This is a set up for a rogue or fighter type to battle casters if you wnat a caster that does not lose spell levels. look in forgotten realms at the mage slay prestige class they focus on counter spelling. The reason the feats are given -4 is to stop spell casters from taking theses feats to even the playing field other classes who come up against a caster be it arcane or divine. it replace the old masters of the wild prestige class forsaker this character forsaked all magic in exchange for hightend powers but in order to gain them they had to destroy magic items. the restrictions made this class a not so so class for folks to play so in 3.5 they made it so you can get the bonus to fighting casters with out the lose of magic items,if you find something wrong with my line of reasoning please let me know.
mplindustries
01-04-08, 07:53 PM I sorry but telling someone to get on with their live because they took a few minutes to post an question/argument about a feat in a forum that is made for that is a bit rude in my book. I was looking for someone to give on good reason for the -4 CL to be part of the feat in 3.5.

As for the practiced spellcaster feat My feeling is that if the class you have gives you spells from first to twenty then the feat is little use unless you mulit-class for four levels or less. The feat is abut hitdie with out a caster level and you still get you spells for those levels so practiced spellcaster does not work to counter the -4 CL.

I definitely explained how practiced spellcaster worked, so I don't know why in the very next post you completely ignored everything I said. It does not have anything to do with hit dice with no caster level. It certainly can help with those, but for example, you would not be able to cast level 4 spells by being a Wizard 4/Fighter 4 with Practiced Spellcaster.

Caster level is completely separate from how many spells you know and of what level they are. You can even have a caster level higher than your HD (though not usually with Practiced Spellcaster). Its actually possible, though unlikely, to cast level 9 spells with a caster level 1, because Caster level and Spellcaster level are different.

I was pretty detailed as to how it worked, so just scroll up to my previous post to find out how/why.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hideous Phidias 01-04-08, 01:46 AM	This maybe an old question or argument, but I am thinking of being a character that specializes in killing mages, why did they feel the need to change this feat. It first appeared in the Miniatures Handbook then later again in Complete Arcane Miniatures Handbook version of Mage Slayer Mage Slayer [General] You have studied the ways and weaknesses of spellcasters and can time your attacks and defenses against them expertly. Prerequisites: Spellcraft 2 ranks, base attack bonus +3. Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all Will saving throws. Spellcasters you threaten may not cast defensively. (They automatically fail Concentration checks to do so.) Complete Arcane version of Mage Slayer MAGE SLAYER You have studied the ways and weaknesses of spellcasters and can time your attacks and defenses against them expertly. Prerequisites: Spellcraft 2 ranks, base attack bonus +3. Benefi t: You gain a +1 bonus on Will saving throws. Spellcasters you threaten may not cast defensively (they automatically fail their Concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat. Special: Taking this feat reduces your caster level for all your spells and spell-like abilities by 4. My problem is the -4 to your caster level they felt the need to add. It makes no sense, why would your spell power go down for learning to fight other casters. There is no good reason for it it make it only good for fighters and monks to take. I sorry but the best person to fight a mage is mage or caster. Could some on explain it to me please.
Dalzig 01-04-08, 02:11 AM	Honing your bodies resistance to magic doesn't lend itself well to channeling magic through your body. Besides, this feat isn't really meant for spellcasters. They already have generally excellent will saves, can use counterspells, and should never be directly threatening another opponent.
Hideous Phidias 01-04-08, 02:23 AM	Honing your bodies resistance to magic doesn't lend itself well to channeling magic through your body. Besides, this feat isn't really meant for spellcasters. They already have generally excellent will saves, can use counterspells, and should never be directly threatening another opponent. A duckblade, hexblade or a warlock with this feat kicks but the negative to caster level is to high a price to pay for the ability. The feat says nothing about honing you body, it says that you are learned in the ways caster cast defensively and are train to counter it so that they no longer can cast defensively. The feat also says that they no you have this training. This means they can take other action to avoid the attack of opportunity, which seems to be more than enough to make this feat balanced. The -4 to you caster level has nothing to do with resisting others magic other wise spell resistance would have an effect like this negative to caster level.
Novacat 01-04-08, 02:46 AM	Since when does something have to make sense to be added for balance in D&D? But seriously, if you take the Practiced Spellcaster feat, it will counteract the -4 CL penalty.
Hideous Phidias 01-04-08, 03:00 AM	Since when does something have to make sense to be added for balance in D&D? But seriously, if you take the Practiced Spellcaster feat, it will counteract the -4 CL penalty. I don't know about how your group plays but mine looks for at least some logic in the rule and if there is none then we say "F" it and try to come up with something that make sense and has logic to it. The old adage "a wizard did it" work for me. And that is my point why should a player have to take a feat to counter act the non-need counterpoint of another. And the sad part is if you want to play RAW the practiced spell caster only works for the hexblade; and only for three of the four levels lost. For th feat to work fully, you need four level or hitdie that done not give you a caster levelthat you are using the feat for.
VengefulGazeofGod 01-04-08, 04:36 AM	The easiest solution is to use the original printing of the feat. How hard is that? Just ignore the Complete Arcane printing and get on with your life. :cool:
mplindustries 01-04-08, 04:51 AM	I don't know about how your group plays but mine looks for at least some logic in the rule and if there is none then we say "F" it and try to come up with something that make sense and has logic to it. The old adage "a wizard did it" work for me. And that is my point why should a player have to take a feat to counter act the non-need counterpoint of another. And the sad part is if you want to play RAW the practiced spell caster only works for the hexblade; and only for three of the four levels lost. For th feat to work fully, you need four level or hitdie that done not give you a caster levelthat you are using the feat for. This makes me wonder if you are handling caster level correctly. Just to clarify, Mage Slayer reduces your caster level by 4, and Practiced Spellcaster raises it by 4 (up to a max of your Hit Dice). So, if your caster level is X: X - 4 + 4 = X Why can only hexblades use this? A level 5 Duskblade for example, has a caster level of 5. 5 - 4 + 4 = 5 5 isn't higher than his HD, so I see no issue. Additionally, you get to choose what order the modifiers apply, so even if you were a cleric with the Healing Domain, you could choose to apply the +1 CL to healing spells after you add the practiced spellcaster bonus. This was all handled in the Sage advice about Wild Mage and Practiced Spellcaster. So yeah, not only would a Hexblade get to benefit from the full +4 caster levels if he took Practiced Spellcaster and Mage Slayer, since a Hexblade's caster level is equal to half of his class level, he could get the full +4 CL boost even without Mageslayer, as long as he was level 8 or more (as could any half CL caster like paladin or ranger). A level 8 Hexblade has a caster level of 4, but 8 HD, so with Practiced Spellcaster, he'd bring his CL up to 8. As far as why they added the -4 thing, I am positive that it is simply a balance issue. Spellcasters are already very powerful, and most gishes can melee better than "regular" melee classes. Additionally, the best way to increase your threatened area and thus how easily you can gain the benefits of Mage Slayer is through magic. Thunderlance comes to mind as probably the easiest way to get 20' of reach, AND you get to use your casting stat in place of strength. AND you get a free dispel against force effects when you hit with it. Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, etc. are all powerful ways to increase your reach, and a -4 to Caster Level means that you might not ALWAYS take this feat. Hell, with two size increases, you threaten 30' with a reach weapon and that means most casters can't even eat the AoO from movement to get out of your threatened area to get the spell off. Oh, and it requires 2 ranks of spellcraft, which is a cross-class skill for almost anyone who doesn't have caster levels. So yeah, in the end, its pretty much just a balance issue. There isn't really a good, logical, in game reason for it reducing your caster level, but then, there isn't really a good, logical, in game reason for a 6' tall man taking up a 5' cube of space, or an old man who just happens to be a higher level surviving a blow that would instantly kill a healthy young adult farmer, so I think you might want to let it slide.
Hideous Phidias 01-04-08, 07:19 AM	The easiest solution is to use the original printing of the feat. How hard is that? Just ignore the Complete Arcane printing and get on with your life. :cool: I sorry but telling someone to get on with their live because they took a few minutes to post an question/argument about a feat in a forum that is made for that is a bit rude in my book. I was looking for someone to give on good reason for the -4 CL to be part of the feat in 3.5. As for the practiced spellcaster feat My feeling is that if the class you have gives you spells from first to twenty then the feat is little use unless you mulit-class for four levels or less. The feat is abut hitdie with out a caster level and you still get you spells for those levels so practiced spellcaster does not work to counter the -4 CL.
Hsien 01-04-08, 10:49 AM	Novacat did provide the answer, which conforms to why there was a need for 3.5; overall game balance. That doesn't mean that the Mini version is unbalanced in your campaign, just that for general 3.5 game balance the designer thought that change was necesary.
Novacat 01-04-08, 10:49 AM	As for the practiced spellcaster feat My feeling is that if the class you have gives you spells from first to twenty then the feat is little use unless you mulit-class for four levels or less. The feat is abut hitdie with out a caster level and you still get you spells for those levels so practiced spellcaster does not work to counter the -4 CL. Well, you're wrong about that, but without quoting the entire feat (which I'm not allowed to do), it would be hard to prove. The basic feat is just +4 caster level. Most of the feat's description is provisions about when that feat does not apply, and giving an example of a multiclass character who uses it. No where does it require multiclassing or lack of full spellcasting progression. Whether or not it makes sense isn't the point. The -4 penalty to CL is in place because it's a harsh penalty for spellcasters who wish to take it. It's a penalty motivator, just like arcane spell failure is a penalty motivator for wearing armor. It's a feat intended for non-casters, and if a caster wishes to take it, he must pay a hefty toll.
Orenmir 01-04-08, 10:51 AM	I agree with a previous poster that stated the -4 casting is for game balance. Having this feat in the hands of most casters is too powerful when combined with spells that already can counter magic well on their own. As for fluff... I think the name "Mage Slayer" itself depicts a power that should be used by someone who hates casters and wants to slay them (a la the Occult Slayer PrC). If you hate casters and want to slay them all, you shouldn't be a caster yourself -- if you are, you deserve a penalty. (Of course, that's all fluff, and mutable.)
Dispater24 01-04-08, 11:13 AM	The feats Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment all reduce your caster level by 4. If you have all your caster level is reduced by 12. All are in Complete Arcane.
TifRhal 01-04-08, 01:15 PM	The feats Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment all reduce your caster level by 4. If you have all your caster level is reduced by 12. All are in Complete Arcane. This is a set up for a rogue or fighter type to battle casters if you wnat a caster that does not lose spell levels. look in forgotten realms at the mage slay prestige class they focus on counter spelling. The reason the feats are given -4 is to stop spell casters from taking theses feats to even the playing field other classes who come up against a caster be it arcane or divine. it replace the old masters of the wild prestige class forsaker this character forsaked all magic in exchange for hightend powers but in order to gain them they had to destroy magic items. the restrictions made this class a not so so class for folks to play so in 3.5 they made it so you can get the bonus to fighting casters with out the lose of magic items,if you find something wrong with my line of reasoning please let me know.
mplindustries 01-04-08, 07:53 PM	I sorry but telling someone to get on with their live because they took a few minutes to post an question/argument about a feat in a forum that is made for that is a bit rude in my book. I was looking for someone to give on good reason for the -4 CL to be part of the feat in 3.5. As for the practiced spellcaster feat My feeling is that if the class you have gives you spells from first to twenty then the feat is little use unless you mulit-class for four levels or less. The feat is abut hitdie with out a caster level and you still get you spells for those levels so practiced spellcaster does not work to counter the -4 CL. I definitely explained how practiced spellcaster worked, so I don't know why in the very next post you completely ignored everything I said. It does not have anything to do with hit dice with no caster level. It certainly can help with those, but for example, you would not be able to cast level 4 spells by being a Wizard 4/Fighter 4 with Practiced Spellcaster. Caster level is completely separate from how many spells you know and of what level they are. You can even have a caster level higher than your HD (though not usually with Practiced Spellcaster). Its actually possible, though unlikely, to cast level 9 spells with a caster level 1, because Caster level and Spellcaster level are different. I was pretty detailed as to how it worked, so just scroll up to my previous post to find out how/why.