Mage Slayer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mage Slayer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Malchius
07-12-07, 02:34 PM Mage Slayer(Complete Arcane) is one of the most powerful feats in the rulebooks, I have two questions about it:

What happens if the person with Mageslayer can throw his melee weapons, does this mean he still threatens you if you move?

Also, How can you counter this as a mage, does quicken spell work?

Thanks in advance
Dalthbar
07-12-07, 02:41 PM If the person actually _threatens_ with a thrown melee weapon, then yes - but in most circumstances, people don't, so probably not.

The Mage Slayer feat prohibits a mage that you threaten to cast defensively, which is only done to not provoke an AoO. Since a quickened spell doesn't provoke an AoO, this feat wouldn't have much bearing on those spells other than the bonus to will saves.
Empiro
07-12-07, 02:44 PM You only threaten what you can hit in melee, barring a few spells and special abilities that allow you to do otherwise. Therefore, it's good to combine Mage Slayer with something like a spiked chain, and feats like Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip.

Quickened spells may be cast since they don't provoke AOOs. The mage's best defense, however, is to not let the fighter get close in the first place.
Malchius
07-12-07, 02:45 PM Hmm Thanks

I don't want to have to quicken spells each time I want to cast without being mangled

Another question, if a Spellthief has mageslayer can he steal the spell you're half way through casting and when he goes to cast that spell is his Caster Level decreased by 4?
Tevin Kevlak
07-12-07, 02:49 PM Hmm Thanks

I don't want to have to quicken spells each time I want to cast without being mangled

Another question, if a Spellthief has mageslayer can he steal the spell you're half way through casting and when he goes to cast that spell is his Caster Level decreased by 4?

The spellthief could steal the spell if he was able to get off a sneak attack some how and no the caster level would be the same as the person who he stole the spell off of. Only the spells that the spellthief actually casts from his spell list (ie not spells that he has stolen) would be decreased by 4.
Malchius
07-12-07, 02:56 PM Thanks, i was jsut wondering and couldn't he pull off a sneak attack because it's an attack of oppurtunity, I'm not sure; anyway damn those pesky spellthieve's that chose to hinder their spellcasting so that they can steal mine, those scumbags!
Puca
07-12-07, 03:24 PM Thanks, i was jsut wondering and couldn't he pull off a sneak attack because it's an attack of oppurtunity, I'm not sure;Attacks of Opportunity are not automatically sneak attacks, but, if the proper conditions are met, e.g. the mage is flanked or denied his dex somehow, they can be sneak attacks.
Malchius
07-12-07, 03:32 PM hmm,:evillaugh muwawa, now all I need is my two spellthieves who always find a way to flank with mageslayer, no mage shall ever stand up to them :evillaugh
Gnarl
07-12-07, 03:49 PM Mage Slayer(Complete Arcane) is one of the most powerful feats in the rulebooks

This is off topic, but the feat is not that great. If you're planning on taking the feat, don't forget that the enemy spellcaster is aware that she can't cast defensively, and unless you have reach, you can always take a 5' step to negate the feat.
Puca
07-12-07, 03:53 PM In conjunction with the one that lets you ignore magical concealment though and its partner that lets you ignore spell-boosted AC, it does make your mage sweat a little.
Malchius
07-12-07, 03:59 PM This is off topic, but the feat is not that great. If you're planning on taking the feat, don't forget that the enemy spellcaster is aware that she can't cast defensively, and unless you have reach, you can always take a 5' step to negate the feat.

It's that off topic, it's kind of a general discussion with some questions being asked on my part; anyway which five foot are they going to step into when they're surrounded by my evil Spellthieves of mageslaying:evillaugh ; sorry just kind of obsessed with that concept now.
Puca
07-12-07, 04:22 PM You have to be realistic though Malchius: any wizard of sorcerer is going to do everything in his (considerable) power to stay out of melee, let alone get surrounded by people in melee.
Malchius
07-12-07, 04:30 PM Yer but the spellthieves will be sneaking masters and sneak up on him and he'll be'll like "nooo:weep: " but anyway, a lot of people I roleplay with tend to play Gishes and it knocks them down a bit it also make Warlocks run to their mothers. I guess it is fair though as the only people who can take it without a penalty off reduced spellcasting are Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Samurai, Scout and Knight, as far as I know anyway.
Puca
07-12-07, 04:43 PM I play casters, arcane, mostly. The only things I fear are better casters, and rogue-types who get surprise rounds, so I devote some considerable effort to making sure I dont get surprised and that I have a way out if I do. It happens though.
Malchius
07-12-07, 04:48 PM oh wait, Martial Adepts can take Mageslayer without a penalty. Another quick question, does it stop your allies adjacent from you from casting their precous spells, if so, what about those all important mid-battle cures!?
Puca
07-12-07, 04:58 PM It has no effect on allies unless you plan on attacking them. (In which case, they really wouldnt be allies.)

Mage Slayer just means casters cant cast defensively to avoid your attack of opportunity for committing a provoking act [casting a spell] in a threatened square.

An ally who was only reachable by you would, technically, be considered "threatened" by you, but it doesnt matter, unless you plan on hitting him.
aelryinth
07-12-07, 05:02 PM Mage Slayer - great Reason to take a reach weapon.

5'step - Great Reason to have Thicket of Blades Stance.

===Aelryinth
Malchius
07-12-07, 05:08 PM It has no effect on allies unless you plan on attacking them. (In which case, they really wouldnt be allies.)

Mage Slayer just means casters cant cast defensively to avoid your attack of opportunity for committing a provoking act [casting a spell] in a threatened square.

An ally who was only reachable by you would, technically, be considered "threatened" by you, but it doesnt matter, unless you plan on hitting him.

But it would, if there was an enemy attacking the cleric who's trying to heal you, you stop him from casting defensively meaning the enemy can hit him, possibly prevent the spell and you end up with a really upset cleric.
Puca
07-12-07, 05:25 PM Oh, I suppose it could be read that way. "No one near you can cast defensively." But that seems overly literal to me: you arent trying to hurt your ally; therefore, even though you could hit him you arent really threatening him.

I could see a DM interpreting it your way, but Id think he was being a bit of a jerk.
Malchius
07-12-07, 05:30 PM Yer, but I'm prepared for my worst, especially seen as though that's how one the DMs plays with interprets that that exact way. He also made it so I couldn't cast a spell in an inn because someone with the feat was upstairs and could have stabbed thorugh the floor to get me :confused: anyway, more questions about it, ahhh that's it; do the reduction of spellcasting ability from Mageslayer and it's two follow up feats stack?
Confusion567
07-13-07, 02:22 AM Yer, but I'm prepared for my worst, especially seen as though that's how one the DMs plays with interprets that that exact way. He also made it so I couldn't cast a spell in an inn because someone with the feat was upstairs and could have stabbed through the floor to get me :confused: anyway, more questions about it, ahhh that's it; do the reduction of spellcasting ability from Mageslayer and it's two follow up feats stack?

Are we talking a six foot high ceiling here? Unless he's crouching down directly above you, using Arcane Sight to detect your magical energy, and the ceiling is touching your head, that's not what I call "Threatened." In that case, nobody would be able to move, because the people in the floor above would get AoO for that.
Malchius
07-13-07, 07:37 AM yer, well, that's weirdism for you, another question, if a sorcerer(for example) takes mageslayer then takes practiced spellcaster, would it neutralise the minus or is there some odd ruling on it?
Puca
07-13-07, 10:55 AM They way you describe your DM, no, you probably will "threaten" your ally and keep him from casting defensively. (If you are threatened by a guy too far away who cant see you let alone hit you, well…yeah.)

re: the sorc
Yes, Practiced Spellcaster will make up for this.
tafkamhokie
07-13-07, 04:04 PM One thing to note, Mage Slayer only prevents people from casting defensively in squares you threaten.

Fine.

But cover or concealment negate an opponent's ability to make an attack of opportunity, even if you are in a threatened square.

So if you have cover or concealment, it doesn't matter that you cannot cast defensively since the cover or concealment negates the attack of opportunity.

To the poster who was attacked from above...you got hosed. Even if the attacker could reach you (long weapon, short ceiling, or both) and there were gaps in the floorboards wide enough for their weapon to be used effectively, you would still have definitely had cover, which negates any AoO.

Now, they could have readied an attack against you, but that has nothing to do with Mage Slayer. And when an opponent does that, you are mostly hosed no matter what anyway.
Saric
07-13-07, 04:18 PM But cover or concealment negate an opponent's ability to make an attack of opportunity, even if you are in a threatened square.

So if you have cover or concealment, it doesn't matter that you cannot cast defensively since the cover or concealment negates the attack of opportunity.

You mean only cover and total concealment. ;)
Malchius
07-13-07, 06:40 PM ooo thanks, it doesn't matter about the roof thing, just seemed a bit odd to me. Soo, theoretically could I cast a spell like fireball then activate wings of cover and just laugh at the fool trying to hit me?
Kratch
07-14-07, 07:04 AM But it would, if there was an enemy attacking the cleric who's trying to heal you, you stop him from casting defensively meaning the enemy can hit him, possibly prevent the spell and you end up with a really upset cleric.

You don't threaten allies, mage slayer works on spellcasters you threaten. Thats how i see it anyways.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Malchius 07-12-07, 02:34 PM	Mage Slayer(Complete Arcane) is one of the most powerful feats in the rulebooks, I have two questions about it: What happens if the person with Mageslayer can throw his melee weapons, does this mean he still threatens you if you move? Also, How can you counter this as a mage, does quicken spell work? Thanks in advance
Dalthbar 07-12-07, 02:41 PM	If the person actually _threatens_ with a thrown melee weapon, then yes - but in most circumstances, people don't, so probably not. The Mage Slayer feat prohibits a mage that you threaten to cast defensively, which is only done to not provoke an AoO. Since a quickened spell doesn't provoke an AoO, this feat wouldn't have much bearing on those spells other than the bonus to will saves.
Empiro 07-12-07, 02:44 PM	You only threaten what you can hit in melee, barring a few spells and special abilities that allow you to do otherwise. Therefore, it's good to combine Mage Slayer with something like a spiked chain, and feats like Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip. Quickened spells may be cast since they don't provoke AOOs. The mage's best defense, however, is to not let the fighter get close in the first place.
Malchius 07-12-07, 02:45 PM	Hmm Thanks I don't want to have to quicken spells each time I want to cast without being mangled Another question, if a Spellthief has mageslayer can he steal the spell you're half way through casting and when he goes to cast that spell is his Caster Level decreased by 4?
Tevin Kevlak 07-12-07, 02:49 PM	Hmm Thanks I don't want to have to quicken spells each time I want to cast without being mangled Another question, if a Spellthief has mageslayer can he steal the spell you're half way through casting and when he goes to cast that spell is his Caster Level decreased by 4? The spellthief could steal the spell if he was able to get off a sneak attack some how and no the caster level would be the same as the person who he stole the spell off of. Only the spells that the spellthief actually casts from his spell list (ie not spells that he has stolen) would be decreased by 4.
Malchius 07-12-07, 02:56 PM	Thanks, i was jsut wondering and couldn't he pull off a sneak attack because it's an attack of oppurtunity, I'm not sure; anyway damn those pesky spellthieve's that chose to hinder their spellcasting so that they can steal mine, those scumbags!
Puca 07-12-07, 03:24 PM	Thanks, i was jsut wondering and couldn't he pull off a sneak attack because it's an attack of oppurtunity, I'm not sure;Attacks of Opportunity are not automatically sneak attacks, but, if the proper conditions are met, e.g. the mage is flanked or denied his dex somehow, they can be sneak attacks.
Malchius 07-12-07, 03:32 PM	hmm,:evillaugh muwawa, now all I need is my two spellthieves who always find a way to flank with mageslayer, no mage shall ever stand up to them :evillaugh
Gnarl 07-12-07, 03:49 PM	Mage Slayer(Complete Arcane) is one of the most powerful feats in the rulebooks This is off topic, but the feat is not that great. If you're planning on taking the feat, don't forget that the enemy spellcaster is aware that she can't cast defensively, and unless you have reach, you can always take a 5' step to negate the feat.
Puca 07-12-07, 03:53 PM	In conjunction with the one that lets you ignore magical concealment though and its partner that lets you ignore spell-boosted AC, it does make your mage sweat a little.
Malchius 07-12-07, 03:59 PM	This is off topic, but the feat is not that great. If you're planning on taking the feat, don't forget that the enemy spellcaster is aware that she can't cast defensively, and unless you have reach, you can always take a 5' step to negate the feat. It's that off topic, it's kind of a general discussion with some questions being asked on my part; anyway which five foot are they going to step into when they're surrounded by my evil Spellthieves of mageslaying:evillaugh ; sorry just kind of obsessed with that concept now.
Puca 07-12-07, 04:22 PM	You have to be realistic though Malchius: any wizard of sorcerer is going to do everything in his (considerable) power to stay out of melee, let alone get surrounded by people in melee.
Malchius 07-12-07, 04:30 PM	Yer but the spellthieves will be sneaking masters and sneak up on him and he'll be'll like "nooo:weep: " but anyway, a lot of people I roleplay with tend to play Gishes and it knocks them down a bit it also make Warlocks run to their mothers. I guess it is fair though as the only people who can take it without a penalty off reduced spellcasting are Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Samurai, Scout and Knight, as far as I know anyway.
Puca 07-12-07, 04:43 PM	I play casters, arcane, mostly. The only things I fear are better casters, and rogue-types who get surprise rounds, so I devote some considerable effort to making sure I dont get surprised and that I have a way out if I do. It happens though.
Malchius 07-12-07, 04:48 PM	oh wait, Martial Adepts can take Mageslayer without a penalty. Another quick question, does it stop your allies adjacent from you from casting their precous spells, if so, what about those all important mid-battle cures!?
Puca 07-12-07, 04:58 PM	It has no effect on allies unless you plan on attacking them. (In which case, they really wouldnt be allies.) Mage Slayer just means casters cant cast defensively to avoid your attack of opportunity for committing a provoking act [casting a spell] in a threatened square. An ally who was only reachable by you would, technically, be considered "threatened" by you, but it doesnt matter, unless you plan on hitting him.
aelryinth 07-12-07, 05:02 PM	Mage Slayer - great Reason to take a reach weapon. 5'step - Great Reason to have Thicket of Blades Stance. ===Aelryinth
Malchius 07-12-07, 05:08 PM	It has no effect on allies unless you plan on attacking them. (In which case, they really wouldnt be allies.) Mage Slayer just means casters cant cast defensively to avoid your attack of opportunity for committing a provoking act [casting a spell] in a threatened square. An ally who was only reachable by you would, technically, be considered "threatened" by you, but it doesnt matter, unless you plan on hitting him. But it would, if there was an enemy attacking the cleric who's trying to heal you, you stop him from casting defensively meaning the enemy can hit him, possibly prevent the spell and you end up with a really upset cleric.
Puca 07-12-07, 05:25 PM	Oh, I suppose it could be read that way. "No one near you can cast defensively." But that seems overly literal to me: you arent trying to hurt your ally; therefore, even though you could hit him you arent really threatening him. I could see a DM interpreting it your way, but Id think he was being a bit of a jerk.
Malchius 07-12-07, 05:30 PM	Yer, but I'm prepared for my worst, especially seen as though that's how one the DMs plays with interprets that that exact way. He also made it so I couldn't cast a spell in an inn because someone with the feat was upstairs and could have stabbed thorugh the floor to get me :confused: anyway, more questions about it, ahhh that's it; do the reduction of spellcasting ability from Mageslayer and it's two follow up feats stack?
Confusion567 07-13-07, 02:22 AM	Yer, but I'm prepared for my worst, especially seen as though that's how one the DMs plays with interprets that that exact way. He also made it so I couldn't cast a spell in an inn because someone with the feat was upstairs and could have stabbed through the floor to get me :confused: anyway, more questions about it, ahhh that's it; do the reduction of spellcasting ability from Mageslayer and it's two follow up feats stack? Are we talking a six foot high ceiling here? Unless he's crouching down directly above you, using Arcane Sight to detect your magical energy, and the ceiling is touching your head, that's not what I call "Threatened." In that case, nobody would be able to move, because the people in the floor above would get AoO for that.
Malchius 07-13-07, 07:37 AM	yer, well, that's weirdism for you, another question, if a sorcerer(for example) takes mageslayer then takes practiced spellcaster, would it neutralise the minus or is there some odd ruling on it?
Puca 07-13-07, 10:55 AM	They way you describe your DM, no, you probably will "threaten" your ally and keep him from casting defensively. (If you are threatened by a guy too far away who cant see you let alone hit you, well…yeah.) re: the sorc Yes, Practiced Spellcaster will make up for this.
tafkamhokie 07-13-07, 04:04 PM	One thing to note, Mage Slayer only prevents people from casting defensively in squares you threaten. Fine. But cover or concealment negate an opponent's ability to make an attack of opportunity, even if you are in a threatened square. So if you have cover or concealment, it doesn't matter that you cannot cast defensively since the cover or concealment negates the attack of opportunity. To the poster who was attacked from above...you got hosed. Even if the attacker could reach you (long weapon, short ceiling, or both) and there were gaps in the floorboards wide enough for their weapon to be used effectively, you would still have definitely had cover, which negates any AoO. Now, they could have readied an attack against you, but that has nothing to do with Mage Slayer. And when an opponent does that, you are mostly hosed no matter what anyway.
Saric 07-13-07, 04:18 PM	But cover or concealment negate an opponent's ability to make an attack of opportunity, even if you are in a threatened square. So if you have cover or concealment, it doesn't matter that you cannot cast defensively since the cover or concealment negates the attack of opportunity. You mean only cover and total concealment. ;)
Malchius 07-13-07, 06:40 PM	ooo thanks, it doesn't matter about the roof thing, just seemed a bit odd to me. Soo, theoretically could I cast a spell like fireball then activate wings of cover and just laugh at the fool trying to hit me?
Kratch 07-14-07, 07:04 AM	But it would, if there was an enemy attacking the cleric who's trying to heal you, you stop him from casting defensively meaning the enemy can hit him, possibly prevent the spell and you end up with a really upset cleric. You don't threaten allies, mage slayer works on spellcasters you threaten. Thats how i see it anyways.