Post/Author/DateTime	Post
runestar 04-30-07, 03:05 AM	Just curious, what are your thoughts on this? Anything potentially game breaking about allowing it as a non-epic feat(perhaps available from 1st lv onwards?). It is an epic feat from the ELH. Everything else would remain the same, save for the prerequisites. Thanks in advance.:)
BW0222 04-30-07, 10:45 AM	runestar, Depends upon the magical beast. A wizard or sorceror can have a magical beast at 1st-level by spending 100gp (i.e. a familiar) Not much earth shattering about that. Pretty much non-combatant. Paladins can gain a magical beast (mount) by 5th. Anyone with leadership could take certain magical beasts by 6th or so. Giant owls or eagles for example. This factors into the APL for the party. In some places you might be able to hire/buy/train or otherwise convince a magical beast to adventure with you. I.e. they are NPCs. If you meet a blink dog, nothing says you can't use comprehend languages and some good bribes inorder to get it to help you on some mission of mutual benefit. If you are talking about replacing an animal companion with a magical beast companion for a druid... then there are obvious problems with it. Magical beasts are far more powerful than animals of the same hit dice. This is why awakened animals may not become animal companions. There is a big difference between a tiger and an awakened tiger. Intelligence allows them to understand commands, make intelligent decisions, speak, and perform exponentially more intelligent choices. Imagine... "Ok, Tiger. Bill is going to cast fly and invisibility on you. You then fly into the camp, use your darkvision to spot the wizard, grapple him, then fly up 100' and drop him." Suddenly, it becomes a virtual NPC. Hence needing leadership or similiar feats in order to have one.
tarkin 04-30-07, 11:18 AM	I never really get why people do this kind of thing. They find something that clearly says epic feat and think "Hm, I can make this a non-epic feat". Without even an ATTEMPT to convince people that it is fair? Without even attempting to downgrade its powers at all? Look, the game designers are NOT morons. Epic feats are about 3x as powerfull as non-epic feats. Even when they make them underpowered, they are still about twice as strong as a regular feat. Lets look at the the kinds of things you can get using this feat. Flying mount at 4th level, petrifing creatute at 7th, Spider eater (and the insuing gold windall of selling it's children) at 10th. Every single one of the 13th and higher ones are hugely powerfull. Here try again like this, with at least an ATTEMPT to downgrade the power of the epic feat. It may still be overpowered, but at least we tried: Lesser Magical Beast Companion [Wild] Prerequisites: Knowledge (nature) 10 ranks, wild shape 1/day. Benefit As per the feat Magical Beast Companion in the Epic handbook with one change: Raise the minimum level requirements by +four, and the level adjustments are also changed by -4. Now you at least acknowledge that someone with FAR greater experience than you declared these things to be far more powerfull than appropriate, which you are fixing by adjusting the levels.
wonlee76 04-30-07, 11:54 AM	Look, the game designers are NOT morons. Epic feats are about 3x as powerfull as non-epic feats. Even when they make them underpowered, they are still about twice as strong as a regular feat. Generally, I agree with you but there are always exceptions to the rules. The fact that they've downgraded one epic feat to becoming a non-epic feat (Two Weapon Rend) is an indication that not all epic feats are created equal and some may be justified into being reduced to non-epic in stature. As for the Magical Beast Companion feat, I agree that it is too powerful to simply reduce it to a non-epic feat without some changes only because magical beasts typically get better starting stats, better HD, higher Int and the extra abilities that a regular animal companion would not be able to get. I like Tarkin's suggestion of a non-epic version of the feat.
jaelis 04-30-07, 12:31 PM	The Eberron CS has a feat that gives druids a MB companion. And pretty decent ones too, like a griffon or a displacer beast.
runestar 04-30-07, 01:35 PM	Hmm...It seems there might have been some areas I overlooked. Thanks all for pointing them out. I made the mistake of comparing their crs, and thinking they were comparable to each other since their crs were more or less the same. But I admit that I neglected to factor in their inherent usefulness over the long run(since they are effectively used as PCs rather than NPCs), as well as misc special abilities(such as that spider eater egg thingy - thanks to Tarkin for pointing that out, even as I admit that his acerbic tone could use a little mellowing...).
mithos_taralom 04-30-07, 01:51 PM	Another way to get an magical beast as a companion is to take beast heart adept PrC from dungeonscape although it is only from a limited list. I had started a similar thread last week but this got more feedback but this is one way to get a magical beast but maybe not in the way you would like. Just thought I would have my say
BW0222 04-30-07, 02:28 PM	tarkin I never really get why people do this kind of thing. They find something that clearly says epic feat and think "Hm, I can make this a non-epic feat". Without even an ATTEMPT to convince people that it is fair? Without even attempting to downgrade its powers at all? ... I tend to agree. I dislike when folks try getting around an obvious balancing issues in feats. However... There are simple ways to gain many of the benefits already. Flying mount at 4th level, Leadership would get you this around 6th-level as would a paladin's special mount - say a pegasus - at similiar levels. Certainly around 4th or 5th, it would be possible to simply buy many such animals. One could also just talk to one and see if they could convince them to help/aid them. Plus one could capture eggs or young and rear/raise them. I don't see how this is overpowered. As a method of long distance travel, scouting, message delivery, etc. you could already have access to such things via wild shape, familiars, overland flight, or just magical items. Considering that one fireball could eliminate your pegasus or giant owl, I'm sure most folks would rather rely on other options than to pay 5,000gp or so for a 'fragile' mount anyway. I honestly don't see why access would require an epic feat for this. petrifing creatute at 7th, Spider eater (and the insuing gold windall of selling it's children) at 10th. Every single one of the 13th and higher ones are hugely powerfull. Leadership can get you most of these -- and even a dragon. You could awaken a dire bear and convince it to come along with leadership also. I'm not sure we need to compare it to an epic feat. Leadership is available at 6th as are paladin mounts. IMO, just use leadership.
Forged_Fury 04-30-07, 08:15 PM	The Eberron CS has a feat that gives druids a MB companion. And pretty decent ones too, like a griffon or a displacer beast. I believe Rangers can take this feat as well, but their choices are fairly limited. Still, I think it would be sweet (if not uber-powerful) to have a krenshar companion. -FF