Manyshot and crossbows. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Manyshot and crossbows. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zalakhiel
03-28-07, 04:32 PM A PC of mine is playing a dwarf ranger who specializes in crossbows. He has the rapid reload feat that allows him to reload his light crossbow as a free action. The problem is about the ranger`s improved combat style at level 6; will he be able to use the manyshot feat with his crossbow? If not, is it ok to house-rule that he gets improved rapid shot from Complete Warrior but only for crossbows? Please enlighten me, I really need help. Thanks in advance. :)
ClementWillowbreaker
03-28-07, 04:36 PM The feat talks a lot about, "arrows", which crossbows don't fire. So there is that against you. Second is the difficulty in loading two bolts into a crossbow, which depending on its configuration, may be physically difficult (instead of just being a dexterous trick like firing two arrows on a bow). But there is no balance reason why a DM couldn't allow it to work on crossbows, since you are also taking a sub-optimal choice. It just doesn't as written.
benihana
03-28-07, 05:05 PM Isn't a repeating crossbow functionally equivalent to manyshot? Just change the bonus feat from Manyshot to Exotic Weapon Proficiency for the repeating crossbow and let weapon focus feats cross-over.
Zherog
03-28-07, 05:18 PM There's a big difference between Manyshot and a repeating crossbow.

Manyshot allows you to fire multiple arrows with one attack roll as a standard action.

A repeating crossbow allows you to fire many bolts in a full-round action without having to reload.
Necromas
03-28-07, 06:12 PM Crossbows are gimped enough for most characters already because of the lack of feat compatability and the ability to make a composite one. Not to mention they need rapid reload just to compete once you have 6 BAB. (the exception being builds that make good use of the crossbow sniper and deadeye shot feats)

Either give him a feat you think is equivalent or let him have a shotgun-esque crossbow.

P.S. A little houserule I was thinking of using for crossbows would be to let you make a composite equivalent one, since they still have pulls that rely on the strength of the loader, but it would be reduced to a max of .5x the strength bonus, as loading a crossbow quickly (assuming rapid reload) is more complicated and there isn't time to put as much strength into it. Even if this was combined with crossbow sniper it would still cap at .5str + .5dex, and burn two feats (rapid reload, crossbow sniper) over a longbow.

In real life most crossbows had a much harder pull then a longbow, and the string had to be pulled back using a crank because it was too hard to reload manually. The reduced fire rate was worth it though because of the dramatic penetration, accuracy, and simplified use.
Inigo Carmine
03-28-07, 06:16 PM Call me mean, but if you willingly choose an inferior weapon such as a crossbow instead of a bow, I see no reason to compensate you for your decision.

Also, Improved rapid shot is a superior feat to manyshot (with one of the pre-reqs being manyshot), so even if I was feeling generous enough to compensate you a feat, improved rapid shot would not be that feat.
lint trap
03-28-07, 06:19 PM Giving Manyshot to a crossbow user isn't unbalanced, but it's pretty hard to justify from a technical standpoint. However, it's just a bonus feat, so it should be easy to find a comporable ability to use in it's place. Crossbow Sniper form PHB II comes to mind, if he doesn't already have it. Or maybe Improved Rapid Reload, letting him reload a Heavy Crossbow as a free action.
RisingZan
03-28-07, 07:33 PM If not, is it ok to house-rule that he gets improved rapid shot from Complete Warrior but only for crossbows? Please enlighten me, I really need help. Thanks in advance. :)

If you're the DM, it's always ok to House Rule. Ideally this is something that could have been worked out earlier to come up with a new Combat Style of Crossbow Sniper ahead of time, with 3 all new abilities at those levels, so he wouldn't already have as feats the combat abilities you might house rule in.

I think the Crossbow Sniper and Deadeye feats are good examples so far; Improved Rapid Reload should probably be for 11th level.

Call me mean, but if you willingly choose an inferior weapon such as a crossbow instead of a bow, I see no reason to compensate you for your decision.

I'll call you mean, as I don't consider the crossbow inferior, especially for a character who probably spent most of his life underground and doesn't need the range of a long bow. The crossbow may have that reload problem, but that can be resolved with the proper feats, plus it has double the crit range and higher base damage. It's mostly only a problem for characters that have high enough BAB to really take advantage of the bows reload speed and that don't have the feats to blow on Rapid Reload for a crossbow.
cog_n_taz
03-28-07, 07:46 PM The crossbow is definitely not weak, though I admit to having changed a few things about it. Such as, for instance, manyshot working on crossbows and being able to add repeating as a property to any crossbow. Rapid shot, point blank, improved rapid, and manyshot on a Skilled Repeating Greatcrossbow, said character was a wizard and more effetive with a crossbow full attack than with a fireball, seriously.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zalakhiel 03-28-07, 04:32 PM	A PC of mine is playing a dwarf ranger who specializes in crossbows. He has the rapid reload feat that allows him to reload his light crossbow as a free action. The problem is about the ranger`s improved combat style at level 6; will he be able to use the manyshot feat with his crossbow? If not, is it ok to house-rule that he gets improved rapid shot from Complete Warrior but only for crossbows? Please enlighten me, I really need help. Thanks in advance. :)
ClementWillowbreaker 03-28-07, 04:36 PM	The feat talks a lot about, "arrows", which crossbows don't fire. So there is that against you. Second is the difficulty in loading two bolts into a crossbow, which depending on its configuration, may be physically difficult (instead of just being a dexterous trick like firing two arrows on a bow). But there is no balance reason why a DM couldn't allow it to work on crossbows, since you are also taking a sub-optimal choice. It just doesn't as written.
benihana 03-28-07, 05:05 PM	Isn't a repeating crossbow functionally equivalent to manyshot? Just change the bonus feat from Manyshot to Exotic Weapon Proficiency for the repeating crossbow and let weapon focus feats cross-over.
Zherog 03-28-07, 05:18 PM	There's a big difference between Manyshot and a repeating crossbow. Manyshot allows you to fire multiple arrows with one attack roll as a standard action. A repeating crossbow allows you to fire many bolts in a full-round action without having to reload.
Necromas 03-28-07, 06:12 PM	Crossbows are gimped enough for most characters already because of the lack of feat compatability and the ability to make a composite one. Not to mention they need rapid reload just to compete once you have 6 BAB. (the exception being builds that make good use of the crossbow sniper and deadeye shot feats) Either give him a feat you think is equivalent or let him have a shotgun-esque crossbow. P.S. A little houserule I was thinking of using for crossbows would be to let you make a composite equivalent one, since they still have pulls that rely on the strength of the loader, but it would be reduced to a max of .5x the strength bonus, as loading a crossbow quickly (assuming rapid reload) is more complicated and there isn't time to put as much strength into it. Even if this was combined with crossbow sniper it would still cap at .5str + .5dex, and burn two feats (rapid reload, crossbow sniper) over a longbow. In real life most crossbows had a much harder pull then a longbow, and the string had to be pulled back using a crank because it was too hard to reload manually. The reduced fire rate was worth it though because of the dramatic penetration, accuracy, and simplified use.
Inigo Carmine 03-28-07, 06:16 PM	Call me mean, but if you willingly choose an inferior weapon such as a crossbow instead of a bow, I see no reason to compensate you for your decision. Also, Improved rapid shot is a superior feat to manyshot (with one of the pre-reqs being manyshot), so even if I was feeling generous enough to compensate you a feat, improved rapid shot would not be that feat.
lint trap 03-28-07, 06:19 PM	Giving Manyshot to a crossbow user isn't unbalanced, but it's pretty hard to justify from a technical standpoint. However, it's just a bonus feat, so it should be easy to find a comporable ability to use in it's place. Crossbow Sniper form PHB II comes to mind, if he doesn't already have it. Or maybe Improved Rapid Reload, letting him reload a Heavy Crossbow as a free action.
RisingZan 03-28-07, 07:33 PM	If not, is it ok to house-rule that he gets improved rapid shot from Complete Warrior but only for crossbows? Please enlighten me, I really need help. Thanks in advance. :) If you're the DM, it's always ok to House Rule. Ideally this is something that could have been worked out earlier to come up with a new Combat Style of Crossbow Sniper ahead of time, with 3 all new abilities at those levels, so he wouldn't already have as feats the combat abilities you might house rule in. I think the Crossbow Sniper and Deadeye feats are good examples so far; Improved Rapid Reload should probably be for 11th level. Call me mean, but if you willingly choose an inferior weapon such as a crossbow instead of a bow, I see no reason to compensate you for your decision. I'll call you mean, as I don't consider the crossbow inferior, especially for a character who probably spent most of his life underground and doesn't need the range of a long bow. The crossbow may have that reload problem, but that can be resolved with the proper feats, plus it has double the crit range and higher base damage. It's mostly only a problem for characters that have high enough BAB to really take advantage of the bows reload speed and that don't have the feats to blow on Rapid Reload for a crossbow.
cog_n_taz 03-28-07, 07:46 PM	The crossbow is definitely not weak, though I admit to having changed a few things about it. Such as, for instance, manyshot working on crossbows and being able to add repeating as a property to any crossbow. Rapid shot, point blank, improved rapid, and manyshot on a Skilled Repeating Greatcrossbow, said character was a wizard and more effetive with a crossbow full attack than with a fireball, seriously.