Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NightHawkFalconis 01-24-08, 02:44 PM	Here's a quick question for anyone trolling the boards. I couldn't find this answer in the FAQ (either because it's not there or I just didn't look hard enough), but can an Order of the Bow Initiate use his ranged precision ability in conjunction with manyshot? They're both standard actions and seem to be independent of each other. I'd assume that the "ranged precision" is considered "precision damage" (how did I ever come to that conclusion? ;P), and since manyshot can be used in conjunction with precision damage abilities, they would operate together. Of course, I do understand that the precision damage is only applied once (barring the super-cheesy use of the greater manyshot feat). What's the verdict?
ZiggZagg 01-24-08, 02:46 PM	I would be inclined to say yes. But I am doped up on cold medicine so my judgement may not be the best :P
mplindustries 01-24-08, 03:25 PM	Here's a quick question for anyone trolling the boards. I couldn't find this answer in the FAQ (either because it's not there or I just didn't look hard enough), but can an Order of the Bow Initiate use his ranged precision ability in conjunction with manyshot? They're both standard actions and seem to be independent of each other. I'd assume that the "ranged precision" is considered "precision damage" (how did I ever come to that conclusion? ;P), and since manyshot can be used in conjunction with precision damage abilities, they would operate together. Of course, I do understand that the precision damage is only applied once (barring the super-cheesy use of the greater manyshot feat). What's the verdict? As you said "They are both standard actions." Though I would consider allowing it, as I don't find it terribly powerful, if you want the ruling as written, they cannot be used together. You cannot use two different standard actions at the same time.
NightHawkFalconis 01-24-08, 03:38 PM	That's where this idea gets shot down, I think. However, the wording is otherwise very muddled. It is considered precision damage, stacks with sneak attack damage, and "Treat the initiate's ranged precision attack as a sneak attack in all other ways." Sneak attack can be used in conjunction with manyshot. It might be better to read the information block as being "whenever the OotBI uses a standard action to attack," even though it's totally not written that way. I'm just seeing how much cheese I can pull. As a DM, since I know exactly what I'm trying to do with this, I'd probably read it as the standard actions not being compatible. But since I'm not DMing in regards to this, I thought it'd be a fun exercise. For reference, by using these abilities and others, I've pumped the average damage/round output in the 200s range without pulling any other cheese than this.
Cartigan 01-24-08, 04:03 PM	The problem is Ranged Precision is actually an attack (or is made an actual attack by the bad editing) where Sneak Attack isn't.
Salla 01-24-08, 07:01 PM	Using Manyshot is a standard action. Using Ranged Precision is a standard action. You cannot take two standard actions at the same time (or even in the same round). You cannot combine Manyshot with Ranged Precision.
NightHawkFalconis 01-24-08, 07:11 PM	Okay, I get that. So what's the point in bothering with the class, then? I suppose you get extra damage without a penalty to attack, but... ah, well. Guess I'll go with my rules-legal build.
Salla 01-24-08, 07:14 PM	Okay, I get that. So what's the point in bothering with the class, then? I suppose you get extra damage without a penalty to attack, but... ah, well. Guess I'll go with my rules-legal build. OotBI is widely considered to be pretty weak. The main benefit it has over using Manyshot is you get similar damage but only expend one arrow instead of multiples. Sometimes, low ammunition is a consideration. If not, you're probably better off with Scout and Greater Manyshot.
mplindustries 01-25-08, 04:24 AM	Okay, I get that. So what's the point in bothering with the class, then? Hint: There isn't one.
Cartigan 01-25-08, 08:23 AM	Hint: There isn't one. There is, but not for munchkins.
StevenO 01-25-08, 07:26 PM	Why take OotBI? Close Combat Shot (although a 5' step often works just as well) at 2nd level and Greater Weapon Focus at 4th level. By RAW Ranged Precision and Manyshot do not stack because both require a standard action. My opinion is that the RP damage should apply whenever a single attack is rolled for a ranged weapon.
mplindustries 01-26-08, 04:23 AM	There is, but not for munchkins. I don't even understand the purpose of this comment. Anyway, I honestly can't possibly see a reason for taking Order of the Bow Initiate. I honestly do like to get into characters and I appreciate it when my players do as well. However, lets look at Order of the Bow Initiate. Ranged Precision sucks and you'd likely do much better just using Manyshot or Greater Manyshot. Close Combat Shot maybe? No, both a ranger spell and feats from other sources duplicate its effect. Not to mention tumbling away. Greater Weapon Focus without fighter levels? +1 to hit? I don't think even fighters would take that unless they really wanted greater specialization or if they didn't understand math. Extended Precision? Thats pretty good, but since you can't actually snipe with Ranged Precision (since you get a single attack, not a standard action when sniping), the only ability that gets a significant benefit after 10 levels is Ranged Precision which we already know to be pretty awful. So is there any mechanical reason? No. Is there a roleplaying reason? It is an organization of people who follow "The Way of the Bow." Do you need to take levels of Order of the Bow initiate to follow the Way of the Bow (which is never really detailed at all)? The answer is no. Hmm, roleplaying reasons are looking pretty thin. Why not just be a ranger/rogue/fighter/whatever and say you're in the Order of the Bow? Is your character who murders for money unable to call himself an assassin without taking levels in a certain class? If you actually think that people who want to follow the Way of the Bow must take levels in Order of the Bow Initiate, then you might as well say, "If you make a rolepalying choice, I will force you to gimp your character mechanically for it, because Fluff and Crunch are totally cemented together and can't be separated." So is there a roleplaying reason to take OotBI? Also no. Why should you take the class then? You shouldn't. Why would you take the class then? 1) Laziness. Using Ranged Precision takes basically no effort and offers moderate returns. You most likely don't even need other types of dice (since you're probably using a longbow), just a d20 and several d8s. Every turn you just have to say "I shoot" and you're done. No special circumstances and nothing to keep track of except distance. 2) Lack of Understanding. It is a fair assumption that you could think it works with Manyshot. Maybe you think d8s must make it better than those lousy d6s that sneak attack and other such abilities give, even though those abilities let you make more than one attack each round. Maybe you somehow don't have access to Greater Manyshot, even though it is in the SRD and thus core. 3) Houseruling. Maybe your DM is kind and alters Ranged Precision to work with Manyshot/Greater Manyshot. This would make it pretty good, probably better for pure killing power than an equivalent level sneak attack/sudden strike/skirmish character, but of course you are paying for it with the prereqs and getting only 2 skill points per level. Hey, thats actually balance!
Cartigan 01-26-08, 09:03 AM	Ranged Precision sucks and you'd likely do much better just using Manyshot Sure, you have more of a chance to get a crit (ie a 20 since it's a bow), but you also have an increased chance to miss or to critically fail. And you take all 4 (lvl 20) shots at a -8 penalty. Without crits, can you add on enough extra damage to equal 6d8 + (the same bonus damage)/4? And only for a single roll? The only way Manyshot is even remotely more promising than Ranged Precision is if you have pumped every feat and ability you have gotten into increasing your threat range with a bow and put all your money into adding as many extra dice to each shot as possible. or Greater Manyshot. Not even in the same category. You can take a full round attack in a standard action at a -8 penalty. Close Combat Shot maybe? No, both a ranger spell and feats from other sources duplicate its effect. Oh wow, spells, that arn't constant, and cost spell slots. And what feats give you CCS? Never mind the fact that anyone but Fighter's are short on feats. Not to mention tumbling away. I didn't realize ranged classes were big on tumbling as a class skill. Greater Weapon Focus without fighter levels? +1 to hit? I don't think even fighters would take that unless they really wanted greater specialization or if they didn't understand math. Coming from some one who thinks a chance at 4d8 at a -8 penalty is a good idea. Extended Precision? Thats pretty good, but since you can't actually snipe with Ranged Precision (since you get a single attack, not a standard action when sniping), I didn't realize "snipe" was a game term because I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. the only ability that gets a significant benefit after 10 levels is Ranged Precision which we already know to be pretty awful. So is there any mechanical reason? No. According to EDIT Why would you take the class then? 1) You are a fighter 2) You can do math and realize Manyshot is a stupid feat in comparison. 2) Lack of Understanding. It is a fair assumption that you could think it works with Manyshot. Maybe you think d8s must make it better than those lousy d6s that sneak attack and other such abilities give, even though those abilities let you make more than one attack each round. Maybe you somehow don't have access to Greater Manyshot, even though it is in the SRD and thus core. As stated above, Manyshot and Greater Manyshot arn't even remotely the same thing nor is it proper to compare Greater Manyshot to Ranged Precision.
WizO_Kayn 01-26-08, 09:26 AM	Please remember everyone has opinions, and you will disagree perhaps, but you can do it with civility. Translation - be polite about it. No personal attacks. WizO Kayn
Cartigan 01-26-08, 09:50 AM	Now that I think about it. Manyshot is a good feat - if you don't already have an ability that does more damage in the same action type without any penalties.
SkipSandwich 01-26-08, 03:15 PM	manyshot is a lot like two-weapon fighting in that it works best when you have a lot of +x dice modifier s to damage, like flaming collision arrows 4d8 at -8 isn't that great, but 4d8+4d6+20 for -8 looks a lot better.
mplindustries 01-26-08, 03:42 PM	A level 16 fighter with 18 Strength and 20 Dexterity (I think thats reasonable, perhaps even low for that level?), Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Ranged Weapon Mastery, and Manyshot using a +5 bow without even any enchantments can do the following (Not to mention all the other crazy stuff they can do with the extra feats): 9 ranks in tumble + 5 Dex = 14 so even a roll of 1 will let you tumble out of threatened areas. Manyshot: 16 (BAB) + 5 (Dex) + 5 (Enhancement) + 1 (Focus) + 2 (Mastery) +1 (PB Shot) - 8 four arrows = +22 that seems pretty reasonable to me for level 16 (And you do only roll once for manyshot) Damage: 4d8 (Arrows) + 16 (Strength) + 20 (Enhancement) + 8 (Specialization) + 8 (Mastery) + 4 (PB Shot)= 74 damage average A level 6 Fighter/OotBI 10 with the same stats, feats, and gear has the following: Ranged Precision: 16 (BAB) + 5 (Dex) + 5 (Enhancement) + 2 (Greater Focus) + 2 (Mastery) +1 (PB Shot)= +31 definitely better, but potentially unecessarily high when you consider the buffs that are likely to be on you by that point. Still, it is a definite advantage of the OotBI (if thats important to you) Damage: 1d8 (Arrow) + 5d8 (Ranged Precision) + 4 (Strength) + 5 (Enhancement) + 2 (Specialization) + 2 (Mastery) + 1 ( PB Shot) = 41 average Oddly enough, the 6 Fighter/OotBI 10 is still better off using Manyshot, as he would even get the extra +1 to hit. Though, if you actually used some of those extra fighter feats on Greater Focus and Spec, the straight fighter would have an extra +1 to hit and +8 more damage. I honestly tried to make it pretty even, but if I had good enhancements on the bow such as maybe Collision, that puts Manyshot way ahead. Collision alone widens the damage gap by 15. Flaming/Frosting/Shocking/etc each add 10.5 average damage to the gap. If you compared a ranger, they wouldn't get weapon specialization or mastery, but they would have amazing favored enemy bonuses to multiply as well as spells. I don't think I even need to do the math on Sneak Attack or Skirmish with Greater Manyshot (which is not even "Splat" material, its in the SRD). And here is a bonus for you, straight from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm): "Sniping If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot."
Lyndis 01-26-08, 04:29 PM	Forget this PRC. Go Scout5/Ranger15 and get +5d6 per arrow with Greater Manyshot.
dman11235 01-26-08, 04:40 PM	Cartigan: it's not 4d8 (four shots) vs 6d8 (one shot with ranged precision), it's (1d8+5+5 mighty+1 con+5 collision+possibly more d6s)x4 at a -8 each, no iterative, or x5 at -2 each, two of them at full -2, or 6d8+5+5mighty+5 collision+1 con. So, it's either 4d8+60+4 con vs 6d8+15+1 con or 5d8+75+5 con vs 6d8+15+1 con. I know which one I'd rather have. Especially with greater manyshot and an improved critical (standard at 20) and scout levels. Also, scout and ranger both have tumble on their list, so yeah, ranged classes DO have tumble. And it's dex based. The feat for a close combat shot is epic, but Arrow Mind lasts for 10 min/level. And what else are you going to use those slots on? Not much. But it is the reason I concider OotBI 2 in my archer builds. I concider it. But I never go more than that. Ever.
Cartigan 01-26-08, 06:39 PM	Greater Manyshot has nothing to do with Manyshot, why do you people keep bringing it up? It doesn't change Manyshot, it just allows you to spread out targets. And your math looks funny there mpl3. How do you get +10 spec and +10 mastery? And of course, this is an assumption that all arrows hit. Cartigan: it's not 4d8 (four shots) vs 6d8 (one shot with ranged precision), it's (1d8+5+5 mighty+1 con+5 collision+possibly more d6s)x4 at a -8 each, no iterative, or x5 at -2 each, two of them at full -2, or 6d8+5+5mighty+5 collision+1 con. What does con have to do with anything? And I already said that if you read what I said. 4d8 + bonus damage at a -8 on all 4 attacks against a 6d8 + (bonus damage)/4 at no penalty to a single shot. Ever. Do you want a sucker? Seriously. Go be uppity elsewhere.
Salla 01-26-08, 07:34 PM	Greater Manyshot has nothing to do with Manyshot, why do you people keep bringing it up? It doesn't change Manyshot, it just allows you to spread out targets. It also makes/lets you make a different attack roll, whether or not you're targetting one target or many. This means that things like Sneak Attack and Skirmish can affect the same target more than once in the same volley. A potential 35d6 Skirmish, just shortbow arrows and skirmish bonus damage, not counting elemental effects or pluses, is moderately impressive, I think.
dman11235 01-26-08, 07:46 PM	Okay, why are you being like this Cartigan? All I did was lay out some math, with some reasoning why I would never go past level 2 in OotBI. No one here is attacking you or "acting uppity". The facts are that with ranged precision you get +5d8 damage to your single arrow, so all of those nice enhancements only go to work once. With volley shooting, or greater manyshot, even just manyshot, you get one or two fewer d8s and then a bunch more static damage and such. Also, with manyshot, you could just use true strike. Practically guaruntee you hit with all of the arrows. And rapid shot does have improved rapid shot, if you really want to get rid of the -2 penalty. And greater manyshot lets you apply skirmish (or SA) to each arrow, letting you stack up some nice d6s on that volly. Oh, and you don't have to use manyshot/GMS to its full effect.
Bopple 01-26-08, 07:50 PM	Even fighter can take Tumble as a class skill, with Cityscape Web Enhancement. As it's WE, it's free. While Greater Manyshot + Skirmish is certainly overrated, it is still way better than Ranged Precision.
dman11235 01-26-08, 07:57 PM	It's not overrated, it's what makes skirmish with a bow viable.
Bopple 01-26-08, 08:13 PM	It makes skirmish with a bow viable. I certainly give you that. But people are overrating it. It is not as good as people describe it to be. Skirmish archer's attack bonus lags behind that of a pure fighter or fighter-ranger archer. It really hurts, considering the fact that his main attack is Gr. Manyshot. It takes very long time to get good archery feats like Woodland Archer or Improved Precise Shot. If he takes fighter levels, then his skirmish progression gets slowed. Furthermore, he has to be within 30' range and move more than 10'. When indoors, it's not easy to move around and stay out of enemies' reach.
Cartigan 01-26-08, 08:14 PM	Okay, why are you being like this Cartigan? All I did was lay out some math, with some reasoning why I would never go past level 2 in OotBI. No one here is attacking you or "acting uppity". The facts are that with ranged precision you get +5d8 damage to your single arrow, so all of those nice enhancements only go to work once. With volley shooting, or greater manyshot, even just manyshot, you get one or two fewer d8s and then a bunch more static damage and such. Also, with manyshot, you could just use true strike. Practically guaruntee you hit with all of the arrows. And rapid shot does have improved rapid shot, if you really want to get rid of the -2 penalty. And greater manyshot lets you apply skirmish (or SA) to each arrow, letting you stack up some nice d6s on that volly. Oh, and you don't have to use manyshot/GMS to its full effect. 1) I will admit I remembered Manyshot wrong, but looking at it now - it is worse than Ranged Precision. Well, unless against something immune to precision damage. Manyshot only gets precision and other bonuses once, and each shot is separate, thus bad against DR. And you are still taking a penalty. So you get (4x bow damage [separately]) + extra damage at a -8 penalty, or you can take bow damage +5d8 + extra damage at -0 penalty. Manyshot is an inferior ability compared to RP (where both apply). 2) Greater Manyshot is better than both Ms and RP, but then again that is like saying Point Blank Shot is better than Farshot. They arn't the same thing. And you can't apply True Strike to full GMs.
dman11235 01-26-08, 08:30 PM	4x all of those bonuses equates to much more than RP. Remember, you get the enhancements on each arrow, just not any precision based damage. And then with true strike you have a much greater chance to deal much more damage, as opposed to a much less chance to deal much more damage. When GMS gets involved, you have a much less chance (BTW -8 is fairly easily overcome by archers: fell shot is a ranger spell, Greater Braces of Archery give you a +2, etc. And AC doesn't grow as fast as attack bonus usually, so you should be alright) multiple times to deal much more damage. Without scout levels, volly shooting is the best bet, and is far better than RP. And volly shooting is probably a little better than a scout/ranger with swift hunter. @Bopple: If you are smart and do a swift hunter, your BAB is one less than a full ranger/fighter and you have at least 16, possibly 17 levels of ranger with all those juicy spells. The movement is an issue though.
Bopple 01-26-08, 11:57 PM	Ok. Time for archery wars. (i am not with my books atm. so correct me if i am wrong) Race: Human Starting Stat: 30 Point Buy Str14, Dex16, Con14, Int10, Wis14, Cha8 (Str, Dex: Fixed, Others: Exchangeable) Archer A - Normal Archer Archer B - Order of the Bow Initiate Archer C - Expert Archer D - Skirmish Archer <Low Level> Archer A1: Fighter6 Archer B1: Fighter6 Archer C1: Scout3/Ranger3 Archer D1: Fighter4/Scout2 Attack Bonus: A1: +15 = +6(BAB) +3(Dex) +1(WF) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +1(Enh) +1(Bless) B1: +15 = +6(BAB) +3(Dex) +1(WF) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +1(Enh) +1(Bless) C1: +12 = +5(BAB) +3(Dex) +1(WF) +1(PBS) +1(Enh) +1(Bless) D1: +14 = +5(BAB) +3(Dex) +1(WF) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +1(Enh) +1(Bless) Damage: They all use Rapid Shot at this level A1: +13/+13/+8 1d8 +2(Str) +2(WS) +2(RWM) +1(Enh) B1: +13/+13/+8 1d8 +2(Str) +2(WS) +2(RWM) +1(Enh) C1: +10/+10 1d8 +2(Str) +1(Enh) +F(Favored Enemy) D1: +12/+12 1d8 +2(Str) +2(WS) +2(RWM) +1(Enh) EDPR(Expected Damage Per Round) against AC25 (excluding criticals for simplification) A1: 12.65 = 2x[0.45x11.5] +0.2x11.5 B1: 12.65 = 2x[0.45x11.5] +0.2x11.5 C1: 4.5 +0.6xF = 2x[0.3x(7.5+F)] *F=0/2 D1: 9.2 = 2x0.4x11.5 <Mid Level> Archer A2: Fighter12 Archer B2: Fighter6/OotBI6 Archer C2: Scout4/Ranger8 Archer D2: Fighter4/Scout4/Ranger4 Attack Bonus: A2: +27 = +12(BAB) +5(Dex) +2(GWF) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +3(Enh) +1(Competence) +1(Haste) B2: +27 = +12(BAB) +5(Dex) +2(GWF) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +3(Enh) +1(Competence) +1(Haste) C2: +23 = +11(BAB) +5(Dex) +1(WF) +1(PBS) +3(Enh) +1(Competence) +1(Haste) D2: +25 = +11(BAB) +5(Dex) +1(WF) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +3(Enh) +1(Competence) +1(Haste) Damage: A2a: Imp.Rapid Shot, A2b: Manyshot, B2a: Imp.Rapid Shot, B2b: Ranged Precision, C2: Gr.Manyshot D2: Gr.Manyshot A2a: +27/+27/+27/+22/+17 1d8 +3(Str) +4(GWS) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +3(Enh) +2d6(Holy) A2b: +21 3x[1d8 +3(Str) +4(GWS) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +3(Enh) +2d6(Holy)] B2a: +27/+27/+27/+22/+17 1d8 +3(Str) +2(WS) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +3(Enh) +2d6(Holy) B2b: +27 1d8 +3(Str) +2(WS) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +3(Enh) +2d6(Holy) +3d8(RP) C2: +17/+17/+17 1d8 +3(Str) +1(PBS) +3(Enh) +2d6(Holy) +F(FE) +5d6(Imp.Skirmish) D2: +19/+19/+19 1d8 +3(Str) +2(WS) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +3(Enh) +2d6(Holy) +F(FE) +2d6(Imp.Skirmish) EDPR against AC30 A2a: Imp.Rapid, A2b: Ms, B2a: Imp.Rapid, B2b: RP, C2: Gr.Ms D2: Gr.Ms A2a: 91.875 = 3x[0.9x24.5] +0.65x24.5 +0.4x24.5 A2b: 44.1 = 0.6x73.5 B2a: 84.375 = 3x[0.9x22.5] +0.65x22.5 +0.4x22.5 B2b: 32.4 = 0.9x36 C2: 43.2+1.2xF = 3x[0.4x(36+F)] *F=0/5/7/9 (Imp.FE) D2: 54.75+1.5xF = 3x[0.5x(36.5+F)] *F=0/2/4 <High Level> Archer A3: Fighter18 Archer B3: Fighter8/OotBI10 Archer C3: Scout4/Ranger14 Archer D3: Fighter4/Scout4/Ranger10 Attack Bonus: A3: +40 = +18(BAB) +7(Dex) +2(GWF) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +5(Enh) +2(Competence) +1(Haste) +2(ect) B3: +40 = +18(BAB) +7(Dex) +2(GWF) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +5(Enh) +2(Competence) +1(Haste) +2(ect) C3: +36 = +17(BAB) +7(Dex) +1(WF) +1(PBS) +5(Enh) +2(Competence) +1(Haste) +2(ect) D3: +38 = +17(BAB) +7(Dex) +1(WF) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +5(Enh) +2(Competence) +1(Haste) +2(ect) Damage: A3a: Imp.Rapid, A3b: Ms, B3a: Imp.Rapid, B3b: RP, C3: Gr.Ms D3: Gr.Ms A3a: +40/+40/+40/+35/+35/+25 1d8 +4(Str) +4(GWS) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +5(Enh) +2d6(Holy) +2d6(other) *Weapon Supremacy* A3b: +32 4x[1d8 +4(Str) +4(GWS) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +5(Enh) +2d6(Holy) +2d6(other)] B3a: +40/+40/+40/+35/+30/+25 1d8 +4(Str) +2(WS) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +5(Enh) +2d6(Holy) +2d6(other) B3b: +40 1d8 +4(Str) +2(WS) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +5(Enh) +2d6(Holy) +2d6(other) +5d8(RP) C3: +28/+28/+28/+28 1d8 +4(Str) +1(PBS) +5(Enh) +2d6(Holy) +2d6(other) +F(FE) +7d6(Imp.Skirmish) D3: +30/+30/+30/+30 1d8 +4(Str) +2(WS) +2(RWM) +1(PBS) +5(Enh) +2d6(Holy) +2d6(other) +F(FE) +6d6(Imp.Skirmish) EDPR against AC35 A3a: Imp.Rapid, A3b: Ms, B3a: Imp.Rapid, B3b: RP, C3: Gr.Ms D3: Gr.Ms A3a: 198.375 = 5x0.95x34.5 +1x34.5 A3b: 124.2 = 4x0.9x34.5 B3a: 164.125 = 4x0.95x32.5 +0.7x32.5 +0.55x32.5 B3b: 52.25 = 0.95x55 C3: 148.4+2.8xF = 4x[0.7x(53+F)] *F=0/5/7/9/11 (Imp.FE) D3: 171.2+3.2xF = 4x[0.8x(53.5+F)] *F=0/5/7/9 (Imp.FE) <Other Considerations> 1. Manyshot is relatively strong against low-AC enemies. Rapid Shot is relatively strong against high-AC enemies. 2. Archer A lacks Spot skill. He needs Able Learner and multiclassing. 3. Archer A has lots of feats on hand to spend on feats like luck feats, combat focus feats, save boosting feats, mage slayer tree feats, or ect. 4. Archer A has the earliest accest to archery feats like Woodland Archer, Imp. Precise Shot, and ect. 5. Without Haste, Rapid Shot dmg decreases by 15~20% 6. Archer C can pass as a skillmonkey. Archer D can do, if he invests sizable portion of his resources. Archer A & B cannot. 7. Hunter's Mercy favors Manyshot. But it consumes one round and does not work with Gr.Manyshot. It does not multiply extra damage dice, either. Thus the real damage increase is about +75%, not +200%. 8. True Strike favors Manyshot(and Gr.Manyshot). But it consumes one round. Thus the real damage increase is about +50%. 9. Both Hunter's Mercy and True Strike are limited in number of use per day. 10. Range does not influence normal shots but does Skirmish and Ranged Precision. 11. Environmental mobility does not influence normal shots and Ranged Precision, but does Skirmish. 12. Concealment linearly decreases normal shot, but eliminates the whole Skirmish or Ranged Precision dmg. 13. Skirmish archers fare better at higher level. <Conclusion> 1. Ranged Precision is sucktacular. 2. Skirmish + Greater Manyshot is not all that great. 3. As long as constant and stable archery damage goes, fighter is the king on the hill.
Cartigan 01-27-08, 12:26 AM	Manyshot/Ranged Precision and Rapid Shot are also entirely different things.
Bopple 01-27-08, 12:53 AM	Manyshot/Ranged Precision and Rapid Shot are also entirely different things. I already proved OotBI sucks totally, be it full-attack or be it standard attack. Ranged Precision is considerably weaker than normal Manyshot or Skirmish Gr.Manyshot. Its full-attack cannot catch up with normal full-attack, either. So what? You suck when you single attack -or- you suck when you full-attack. And now you deny everything, blinding yourself?
Lyndis 01-27-08, 01:11 AM	3. As long as constant and stable archery damage goes, fighter is the king on the hill. But that doesn't happen all the time. Being able to move and a full-attack's worth of damage is a great thing. It's why Pounce is so good for melee folks. If an enemy advances on me and gets in my face, I don't want to sit there and trade full-attacks. I want to be able to move away, fire 4 arrows, while the enemy only gets one attack unless the enemy has pounce. Yes, Fighter is very good at damage. We all know that. That's about all it does though. Ranger/Scout are better defensively, and also fills the skillmonkey role. Spell Reflection and evasion really help against damage spells. Skirmish also gives extra AC.
Bopple 01-27-08, 01:39 AM	But that doesn't happen all the time. Actually, that is more true on skirmish. You have to be within 30'. That is a serious restriction. You have to move more than 10' away from where you stood. That is another serious problem, when you are in a cave or a room. What is worse, while I didn't include it in the calculations, Improved Skirmish requires even more mobility. If an enemy advances on me and gets in my face, I don't want to sit there and trade full-attacks. The thing is. Normal manyshot is far from wuss, in the first place. I want to be able to move away, fire 4 arrows, while the enemy only gets one attack unless the enemy has pounce. Yeah, but nowadays, melee classes can do serious amount of damage from mid-lvl on. Why would enemies focus on lousy far-away archer, after seeing the brute in front of them did hundreds of damage just now? Yes, Fighter is very good at damage. We all know that. That's about all it does though. I never claimed otherwise. My intention is to prove my opinion, 'Greater Manyshot + Skirmish is overrated'. As a whole character, I do think ranger/scout is better. Ranger/Scout are better defensively, Not really. Fighter has more feats and can invest them in defense. And it has better HD. And Ranger/Scout has MAD problem. and also fills the skillmonkey role. That is why I mentioned it in 'Other Considerations'. Spell Reflection Spell Reflection is not all that great. Few mages target archer over infantry, while knowing archer has a better touch AC. Skirmish also gives extra AC. Due to feats and investments as a skillmonkey, their AC are almost identical.
Lyndis 01-27-08, 01:43 AM	:confused: What MAD? They need Dex and Con. Str is a secondary concern.
Bopple 01-27-08, 01:52 AM	As a skirmisher, hell you don't want medium load. That means you need 14 Str, at least. You can have 12 Str and buy a str boost item, if you start as a 10+ lvl character. But then again, as far as i know, most games start around 5th lvl. As a ranger, you want 14 Wis for spellcasting. Though you can have 10 Wis and buy Periapt of Wisdom+4, it takes soooooo long time, before buying that as an archer. As a skillmonkey, you want a good Int score. Int 10 is not good enough. Especially when your skillpoint is only 6+Int. If you are the only skillmonkey, you might be required to be the party face. In that case, you cannot dump Cha, either. It certainly has MAD problem.
Lyndis 01-27-08, 02:09 AM	I would not have the Scout/Ranger as the party face. Diplomacy is not a class skill, so I think they should dump Cha. You also do not necessarily need spellcasting. You can trade them in for bonus feats instead if you take one of the alternate clss features. If you really want to have spellcasting, you should start with 12 ane wait for that +2 to wis item. By the time you have level 3 spells, you can afford a +2 item. 14 int should do for skills (12 if human). Your skills are mainly for sneaking, spotting, and trap stuff. 8 skillpoints per level is just enough for that. There is also an armor enchantment that lets you treat a Medium load as if you're only carrying a Light load. 12 Strength should be fine. You should also always carry a Haversack.
Bopple 01-27-08, 02:28 AM	I would not have the Scout/Ranger as the party face. Diplomacy is not a class skill, so I think they should dump Cha. I agree. But there are certain inevitable circumstances. Anyway, there is a way to deal with it, like Uncanny Trickster or Ruathar(though it costs you much of your combat prowess). You also do not necessarily need spellcasting. You can trade them in for bonus feats instead if you take one of the alternate clss features. But people like ranger spells. And we have perceived that in this thread, with the posts by others, already. And Hunter's Mercy is -the- damage booster. If you really want to have spellcasting, you should start with 12 ane wait for that +2 to wis item. By the time you have level 3 spells, you can afford a +2 item. 14 int should do for skills (12 if human). Your skills are mainly for sneaking, spotting, and trap stuff. 8 skillpoints per level is just enough for that. Yeah, but if you are the only skillmonkey that is not enough. If there is a dedicated skillmonkey in the party, then your skill is not necessary, though good to have. Then it becomes a matter of choice - more damage or more skills? There is also an armor enchantment that lets you treat a Medium load as if you're only carrying a Light load. 12 Strength should be fine. You should also always carry a Haversack. Those are not options when you start as a 5th lvl character. And handy haversack does not really help you, unless you put your bow, arrows, your backup melee weapon and armor in it.
Lyndis 01-27-08, 03:13 AM	The enchantment is dirt cheap. 1500 gold I think? a 5th level character can afford that. You don't really need that much carrying power. Mithril chain shirt is like 10 lbs. You also need to carry one bow and like 40 arrows inyour quiver. The rest you can stow in a haversack. 12 strength is enough if you're careful. q Even if you need 14 strength, it's only 6 points in point buy. Assuming 30 pt buy and human, you could have str14 dex16 con14 int12 wis12 cha8
JamesMaissen 01-27-08, 03:14 AM	Okay, I get that. So what's the point in bothering with the class, then? When it first came out it was the only way to fire a bow without provoking. Still it was a weak class. At this point it's a level dip or two for added WILL saves. -James
mplindustries 01-27-08, 03:53 AM	Actually, that is more true on skirmish. You have to be within 30'. That is a serious restriction. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone on this. I only want to mention the fact that Manyshot also requires you to be within 30'. I know there are other options, I just don't want that fact to be forgotten. I also want to mention that way back on the first page, I was wrong about the +10 from specialization and mastery, and that instead they should each be +8. I have edited it. I believe the major problem before this fighter vs. skirmisher argument was the incorrect assumption by some here that Manyshot did not get strength, enhancement, specialization/mastery, and similar bonuses to each arrow, when in fact the only damage barred from applying more than once is precision based damage. Additionally, the term "precision-based damage" is never actually defined, though it goes on to call out a critical hit as an example. Thus, people have extrapolated that bonus damage dice from things simulating critical hits can not apply to each arrow individually, meaning that sneak attack, skirmish, and sudden strike are generally not allowed. Some think that anything that specifically requires the enemy to be critable can apply only once (like Swashbuckler's Int to damage). This does not, however, by any extension, bar the bonuses used in my math from applying to all four arrows, proving without doubt that while the OotBI's attack bonus would generally be higher, he'd also do almost half as much damage, even without any advanced optimizing on the manyshot user's part. Thus, I issue the challenge - Build an archer with OotBI levels who is actually better off using Ranged Precision than Manyshot. If you think attack bonus is that significant, compare them to the ACs of common enemies of that CR to show how much of a difference the attack bonuses make. Also make sure the character is actually trying to be a good archer and has spent appropriate resources on feats/stats/gear towards that goal (For example, no level 16 characters using an unenchanted non-composite shortbow). In other words, try to maximize Ranged Precision damage, not to minimize non-Ranged Precision damage.
Bopple 01-27-08, 04:36 AM	The enchantment is dirt cheap. 1500 gold I think? a 5th level character can afford that. You don't really need that much carrying power. Mithril chain shirt is like 10 lbs. You also need to carry one bow and like 40 arrows inyour quiver. The rest you can stow in a haversack. 12 strength is enough if you're careful. q Even if you need 14 strength, it's only 6 points in point buy. Assuming 30 pt buy and human, you could have str14 dex16 con14 int12 wis12 cha8 Yeah, I might have exaggerated a bit. But fighter can invest those 4 points anywhere he wants to put in. It can mean another +1 bonus to attack, through half the career. Anyway, it is essentially the dilemma of a 5th-man. When there is a dedicated expert in the party, ranger skill is not necessary, while it's good to have. In this case, Survival(Track) & Spot/Listen are the main skills that really matter for a ranger. But then again, a fighter can do it with Able Learner, doing more damage. Heck, even Handle Animal skill can mostly deal with it. (stealth skills are rarely an issue, unless the whole party is optimized for it) As a 5th-man, surplus skill is good. But surplus damage is also good. If it were a melee class, then surplus skill would always be better. There is virtually no difference between doing 150 melee dmg and 200 melee dmg per round at mid-lvl, or between 300 and 400 at high lvl. But archery damage is not that high. 30~50 more damage can certainly mean something. While I like ranger/scout as my archer, I cannot say it is better than a fighter archer, as a 5th-man. It is a matter of preferance. If a ranger/scout takes the expert route, either you are supposed to be the party face(in this case you thoroughly suffer from MAD) or there should be a diplomat in the party. But then again, a diplomat is hard to come by, unless there is a bard, in the party.
Cartigan 01-27-08, 10:11 AM	I already proved OotBI sucks totally, be it full-attack or be it standard attack. Absurd statement since your entire argument hinges on stuff they can still do. Skirmish Gr.Manyshot. Not. The. Same. Thing. Its full-attack cannot catch up with normal full-attack, either. Based on what? Absurd conjecture? It's full attack action is no different than the full attack of a Fighter, Scout, Ranger, etc. As a ranger, you want 14 Wis for spellcasting. Though you can have 10 Wis and buy Periapt of Wisdom+4, it takes soooooo long time, before buying that as an archer. If you can't afford a Periapt of Wisdom +4 by the time you can actually get 4th level spells, you are doing it wrong. Hell, you can probably get one by the time you can get 2nd level spells. If I was smart, I would get a Wis of 11 then get a Periapt of Wisdom +2 when I was able to cast 2nd level spells, then upgrade to a +4 one only when you get 4th level spells. I do believe that is a far better argument than what you make.
dman11235 01-27-08, 12:52 PM	Yes, Cartigan, skirmish GMS is not the same thing as ranged precision. Neither is a rapid shot volly build, or anything else that is not RP. It doesn't change the fact that it is a better use of an archer. So is the volly guy. If they were the same thing, there would be no difference, and thus nothing to contrast.
Cartigan 01-27-08, 01:23 PM	Yes, Cartigan, skirmish GMS is not the same thing as ranged precision. Neither is a rapid shot volly build, or anything else that is not RP. It doesn't change the fact that it is a better use of an archer. So is the volly guy. If they were the same thing, there would be no difference, and thus nothing to contrast. No, you don't understand. The point is they arn't comparable. Manyshot and Ranged Precision are because they are the same type of action and have similar rules. Greater Manyshot is the same action but has entirely different rules and Rapid Shot isn't even the same type of action. You can contrast all you want between them, but they arn't comparable to begin with so the contrast is pointless.
NightHawkFalconis 01-27-08, 01:54 PM	Pardon an intrusion from the OP here, but I'm wondering exactly how Cartigan plans to nab a Periapt of Wisdom +4 by the time he can cast level-2 spells, unless we're talking about level-2 ranger/paladin spells, which even then is a stretch unless the DM is incredibly generous, or the character starts at that level. Anyway, in case any of you are interested in seeing the final character build that spawned this war, he's a human Scout 3/Barbarian 2/Ranger 2 (all future levels will be Ranger) with an Elvencraft composite longbow. 50' movement is a big help, and I was considering pushing it to 60' with the non-spellcasting ranger variant in the CW, but I think I'll take the spells (we have no real healer in the party... yay wands of CLW). Of course, at this point, I don't have much in the way of manyshot, but so far I've done nothing other than save the party's collective ass with my arrows. Attack is at +13 (+6 BAB, 21 Dex, WF, +1 bow) and deal 1d8+2d6+4 damage. Furthermore, he's quite the skill monkey and an expert animal trainer and tracker to boot (keeps a domesticated dire wolf around as a guard, and a husky for forays into civilization). His AC isn't so hot, only at 21 (+1 mithril chain shirt w/ mwork dastana, 21 dex), but in time that will go higher, and it increases when I skirmish, which I have only done indoors so far (when you can tumble over tables without rolling the die, it really helps). And he can make a mean bundt cake ^^ Cheers!
NightHawkFalconis 01-27-08, 02:07 PM	No, you don't understand. The point is they arn't comparable. Manyshot and Ranged Precision are because they are the same type of action and have similar rules. Greater Manyshot is the same action but has entirely different rules and Rapid Shot isn't even the same type of action. You can contrast all you want between them, but they arn't comparable to begin with so the contrast is pointless. Why not? All these actions deal damage to the enemy, so why can't they be compared? Not to mention, they all require a full round's worth of actions (for skirmish damage + Manyshot, a move and standard; for Rapid Shot, a full-round attack). Even not counting skirmish damage, these actions can only be used once a round, anyway. They also operate at a similar range; in fact, Rapid Shot has a far superior range than Manyshot, and some other advantages over Ranged Precision. A character with a 40-foot move speed (assuming a few levels in Scout) can Manyshot a target within 70 ft of his starting position in any given round. An OotBI can do so within 100 ft, and Rapid Shot, at any target within shooting distance (110 ft if he wants no penalty). The big difference, but one nobody is really taking into consideration, is that the Manyshot/ RP character can move up to a corner and take a nice, big chunk out of an enemy's hit points, while the Rapid Shooter has to have a direct line of sight from within 5 feet of his starting position. I think it's a perfectly valid comparison.
Cartigan 01-27-08, 03:56 PM	Pardon an intrusion from the OP here, but I'm wondering exactly how Cartigan plans to nab a Periapt of Wisdom +4 by the time he can cast level-2 spells, unless we're talking about level-2 ranger/paladin spells, which even then is a stretch unless the DM is incredibly generous, or the character starts at that level. Boppe was talking about Rangers, who don't get level 2 spells until 8th level. A few more levels if they actually want to cast something. [QUOTE=NightHawkFalconis;14935920]Why not? All these actions deal damage to the enemy, so why can't they be compared? That is a such a ridiculous question I'm not even going to read the rest of your post. "What do you mean veal and apples arn't the same thing?" :rolleyes:
Bopple 01-27-08, 06:07 PM	Ignore Cartigan. It is obvious he is just trolling.
MongooseFamiliar 01-27-08, 08:12 PM	Okay, I get that. So what's the point in bothering with the class, then? I suppose you get extra damage without a penalty to attack, but... ah, well. If you are a Shot-on-the-Run scout, it can be useful, since you are only making one attack a round anyway. And before people bombard me with numbers proving why it isn't optimal, some characters do want to do the mobile sniping thing rather than the rain of doom thing.
Bopple 01-27-08, 08:17 PM	Shot on the Run does not work with Ranged Precision. No matter you may try to hype Ranged Precision in any way, it just sucks.
Cartigan 01-28-08, 01:03 AM	Ignore Cartigan. It is obvious he is just trolling. Because I refuse to believe your absurdist arguments that anything that does damage is all the same thing? Shot on the Run does not work with Ranged Precision. No matter you may try to hype Ranged Precision in any way, it just sucks. Who's a troll again?
Bopple 01-28-08, 01:46 AM	Who's a troll again? I am not sure what it has to do with trolling? BTW, I was not referring to MongooseFamiliar only for hyping Ranged Precision. It was for all who hyped Ranged Precision in this thread(and mainly you, Cartigan). And let's see what you have been doing; There is, but not for munchkins. Calling people munchkins without any proof. Even if you had a proof(which you don't), it was still rude. I didn't realize "snipe" was a game term because I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Then again rude with "what the hell you are talking about." And it is obvious you didn't know what you were talking about. Because there is 'sniping', as already pointed by others. You can do math and realize Manyshot is a stupid feat in comparison. Again, you didn't know what you were talking about and were only ready to throw rushed conclusion. If you don't know, do some homework. That is the least manners you can show to the people who are involved in the discussion, especially when you want spit some rude words. Not. The. Same. Thing. And please. Please explain, why Greater Manyshot must be differentiated from Manyshot? Absurd statement since your entire argument hinges on stuff they can still do. Calling other's argument absurd, without any tangible proof or reasoning. Oh, yeah. And what the heck OotBI can do? Please enlighten us. Based on what? Absurd conjecture? Again. And conjecture? I think my calculation is a fine simulation, though not perfect. If you can do better, please show us. Or prove what is absurd in my calculations. Without any proof, you are just trolling. That is a such a ridiculous question I'm not even going to read the rest of your post. Again, naturally. What have you added to this discussion other than rude remarks or repeated vain arguments with no proof what-so-ever? Come on. Stop circulating your unbased arguments but show us some real proof. PLEASE.
MongooseFamiliar 01-28-08, 02:11 AM	Shot on the Run does not work with Ranged Precision. No matter you may try to hype Ranged Precision in any way, it just sucks. Explain, please. Shot on the Run lets you split your move action to before and after your ranged attack action. Generally, an attack is a standard action. The Ranged Precision is a standard action. It should work unless your DM rules that an attack is not a standard action.
Bopple 01-28-08, 02:17 AM	You cannot use a standard action with Shot on the Run, because Shot on the Run requires an attack action. An attack action is a standard action. But a standard action is not an attack action. Let's look at a similar logic. Bopple is a human. But does it mean every human is Bopple? Edit) To make use of it. You need Flyby Attack. But then again, why would you use Ranged Precision over Manyshot or Greater Manyshot, even if you had Flyby Attack?
Cartigan 01-28-08, 08:31 AM	Then again rude with "what the hell you are talking about." And it is obvious you didn't know what you were talking about. Because there is 'sniping', as already pointed by others. No, no one else has mentioned sniping, and it still isn't a game term, so I still have no idea what set of rules and actions make up sniping, because you have also still not explained it. And please. Please explain, why Greater Manyshot must be differentiated from Manyshot? Because Greater Manyshot is a different rule set. It's not one attack roll with only one set of extra dice applicable, it's a series of different attack rolls. Greater Manyshot is comparable to a full attack action, not a standard attack like Manyshot or Ranged Precision. Calling other's argument absurd, without any tangible proof or reasoning. Oh, yeah. ... Again. And conjecture? I think my calculation is a fine simulation, though not perfect. What is it that a OotBI can't do on a full attack that another ranged fighter can do? If you can do better, please show us. Or prove what is absurd in my calculations. I don't see you answering questions I already asked and then continuing to tell me to ask them. Again, naturally. All things cannot be compared fairly. All damage is not the same. All actions are not the same thing. You want to compare and contrast things that are similar to each other, not thing that are wildly different. "I submit the Greatsword sucks because it can only do 2d6 damage and a wizard gets a fireball that can do 10d6 to everything!" Doesn't work. What have you added to this discussion other than rude remarks or repeated vain arguments with no proof what-so-ever? I still havn't seen you answer any questions I asked. Edit) To make use of it. You need Flyby Attack. But then again, why would you use Ranged Precision over Manyshot or Greater Manyshot, even if you had Flyby Attack? Depends how bad you wanted to hit somebody and what you were trying to hit. Which everyone disregards everytime they go "OMG RP suckz0rs lololol, Manyshot is the rockz lololol n00b"
Bopple 01-28-08, 10:01 AM	No, no one else has mentioned sniping, and it still isn't a game term, so I still have no idea what set of rules and actions make up sniping, because you have also still not explained it. BS. And here is a bonus for you, straight from the SRD: "Sniping If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot." Because Greater Manyshot is a different rule set. It's not one attack roll with only one set of extra dice applicable, it's a series of different attack rolls. Greater Manyshot is comparable to a full attack action, not a standard attack like Manyshot or Ranged Precision. BS, again. Greater Manyshot is a standard action. And you compare it with full-round action? Let's see. There is a kind of train called 'magnetic levitation train', which can travel at the speed of 400mile/h. Just because its speed is almost equal to that of slow planes, is it not a train anymore? Should we call it an airplane? When constructing a new continental express railroad, that type of train is out of consideration, because it is not comparable to normal trains? Or we should consider them as some kind of new 747 ultra-jumbo-jet and put it in a new line from NY airport to LA airport? What is it that a OotBI can't do on a full attack that another ranged fighter can do? As I have shown, OotBI's full-attack is weaker than fighter archer's full-attack. But is its Ranged Precision better than Manyshot of fighter archer? No. So what is the point of OotBI, except for 2-lvl dipping like fighter18/OotBI2? I don't see you answering questions I already asked and then continuing to tell me to ask them. BS, again. Your questions are unreasonable. If you want others to consider your question seriously, back-up your argument with proof. Or try to, at least. And it does not have anything at all with showing your simulation. I have to answer every single question of yours, but you don't show any proof, at all? You don't answer, but only question? Who the heck are you thinking you are? God himself at Final Judgement? You are just a troll. All things cannot be compared fairly. All damage is not the same. All actions are not the same thing. You want to compare and contrast things that are similar to each other, not thing that are wildly different. BS. That is another vain argument. Prove what is different. Prove why they can't be compared. Stop repeating circulating argument BS like "you cannot compare them, just because they are not meant to be compared". "I submit the Greatsword sucks because it can only do 2d6 damage and a wizard gets a fireball that can do 10d6 to everything!" Doesn't work. LOL. This simply shows you are just a troll. You compare this to spell vs melee? TOTAL WHACK OF BS. I still havn't seen you answer any questions I asked. Again, evading. And obviously, there seems to be no intention to apologize. Depends how bad you wanted to hit somebody and what you were trying to hit. Which everyone disregards everytime they go "OMG RP suckz0rs lololol, Manyshot is the rockz lololol n00b" Completely vain and rude argument again. Elaborate what the heck is that kind of situation. Are you suggesting level 12 party are supposed to fight enemies with AC40?
Cartigan 01-28-08, 11:48 AM	BS, again. Greater Manyshot is a standard action. And you compare it with full-round action? Uh, yes. It is a full attack action taken as a standard action. It is 10x more comparable to a full attack with a bow than it is to Manyshot. As I have shown, OotBI's full-attack is weaker than fighter archer's full-attack. Based on what? But is its Ranged Precision better than Manyshot of fighter archer? No. Depends. What. You. Are. Fighting. Manyshot is not automatically better than Ranged Precision because you say so. BS, again. Your questions are unreasonable. If you want others to consider your question seriously, back-up your argument with proof. Or try to, at least. My questions being "How is an OotBI's full attack different than that of a ranged fighter's/Ranger's/Scout's full attack?" That question is for YOU TO EXPLAIN. I don't have to back it up with proof because it is a question, NOT an argument. And it does not have anything at all with showing your simulation. I have no idea what you are talking about, again. I have to answer every single question of yours, but you don't show any proof, at all? A question is not an argument. Seriously. It's not. Not only that, but it is a question based on your argument. Are you refusing to answer questions about positions you yourself assert? If you refuse, I will assume your positions are all wrong. BS. That is another vain argument. Prove what is different. Prove why they can't be compared. Stop repeating circulating argument BS like "you cannot compare them, just because they are not meant to be compared". I already explained it. They arn't the same thing. Yes, they are standard actions, but the rules are drastically different. Manyshot and Ranged Precision are comparable. Greater Manyshot is an entirely different beast. It is like comparing a Greatsword to a Fireball. LOL. This simply shows you are just a troll. You compare this to spell vs melee? TOTAL WHACK OF BS. Too bad that is the exact comparison you are making. Reworded of course. Completely vain and rude argument again. Elaborate what the heck is that kind of situation. Are you suggesting level 12 party are supposed to fight enemies with AC40? Hope you roll a 14 or better on your Manyshot for the foe with an AC of 20. And hope its not a higher AC.
Bopple 01-28-08, 12:29 PM	As I expected, you didn't show any example or proof to show when Ranged Precision is better than Manyshot, contrast to my calculation. I know why you cannot; there is no such case, unless it is extremely improbable, like posing enemies with AC40 against a level 12 party. And even in such an extreme case I am quite sure Manyshot would be better than Ranged Precision, though I haven't calculated it yet. Goodbye, troll. It is crystal clear that you don't want to either apologize or add anything positive to this discussion, but just want to be trolling. I will ignore your posts from now on.
Cartigan 01-28-08, 01:43 PM	As I expected, you didn't show any example or proof to show when Ranged Precision is better than Manyshot, contrast to my calculation. Against opponents with DR, against opponents with non-dismissible amounts of armor. Also, you have STILL not answered a single question I have asked. I therefore dismiss your assertion that the OotBI sucks as inherently false.
Serrin 01-28-08, 01:53 PM	Well, this is a fun thread. CharOp took a stab at it (with some nudging from the OP) here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984103 Bopple: In short, I managed to construct a build where Ranged Precision does more damage than Manyshot, even with appropriately optimized stats and level appropriate optimized equipment. If you really wanted, I suspect Manyshot might pull out ahead, albeit briefly, if you use some ridiculously tricked out magic arrows instead of a magic bow. Troll guy: We're comparing standard actions that fire multiple arrows. Greater Manyshot is one of those. And I do hope you manage to find the rules for sniping which have been pasted for you on one of these readings. My overall conclusion: You can certainly invent situations and builds where Ranged Precision is better. DR monsters whose DR between 50% and 100% of an average single arrow of Manyshot's. Or builds where you abuse the fecal matter out of precision damage like sneak attack, or other sources of non-multiplicative bonus damage (yes, SA dice aren't multiplicative under Manyshot. They normally are though, don't get me wrong). In general, however, if Manyshot is losing, it means that your attack bonus is too low. If I were making a character for any other purpose than disproving the OP saying "I don't think this can be done", I'd go with (Greater) Manyshot without thinking twice. Then I could use my levels for things that give me multiplicative damage bonuses. Or in the case of Greater Manyshot, just do the skirmish deal.
Cartigan 01-28-08, 02:08 PM	We're comparing standard actions that fire multiple arrows. Greater Manyshot is one of those. But it's more comparable to a full attack. You take a roll for each arrow fired. And each arrow gets all its bonuses. You fire them at your choice of targets. The only thing it keeps is its a standard action and you take a penalty for each arrow (which is barely balance for what it does considering a full attack gets -5, -10, -15 on to hit instead of flat -8). Greater Manyshot is even better than a full attack by a decent amount so of course it is better than Manyshot or Ranged Precision.
Serrin 01-28-08, 02:18 PM	So, let me get this straight. Firing 4 shots at -8 at one target as a standard action is a lot like firing 1 shot at 1 target at +0 for +5d8 damage, but firing 4 shots at 4 targets at -8 as a standard action is more like a full attack? No way. The number of dice you roll has nothing to do with this. The topic of discussion is "things an archer can do with a standard action". You can make a (weak) argument that Greater Manyshot isn't comparable because of the number of feats it eats. However, 2 more feats (for Manyshot and Greater Manyshot) is a drop in the bucket compared to 10 levels of a subpar prestige class. Any time you could use Ranged Precision, you can also use Greater Manyshot. Neither has unusual restrictions (in fact, they share a common range restriction until OotBI 10). Neither has a noticeable cost per use. They both cost a decent amount in terms of one-time costs (although 10 levels is a much steeper price, to be honest). And most importantly, both are standard actions, while a full attack is, well, a full round action. So, yeah, Greater Manyshot is quite comparable. Also, Manyshot fires up to 4 arrows. So that's more like a full round attack too, and thus by your logic cannot be compared with Ranged Precision.
Cartigan 01-28-08, 02:49 PM	So, let me get this straight. Firing 4 shots at -8 at one target as a standard action is a lot like firing 1 shot at 1 target at +0 for +5d8 damage, but firing 4 shots at 4 targets at -8 as a standard action is more like a full attack? No way. So what do you do during a full action. Fire four different arrows at <=4 targets at +0, -5, -10, -15. Add extra dice and damage for each arrow, and possible crit on each arrow What does Greater Manyshot do? Fire 4 arrows at <= 4 targets at -8, -8, -8, -8 w/i 30 feet. Add extra dice and damage for each arrow and possible crit on each arrow. What does Manyshot do? Fire 4 arrows at 1 target at -8. Add extra damage to each arrow, but only add extra dice and possible crit on first arrow. What does Ranged Precision do? Fire 1 arrow at 1 target a +0 with 5d8 of dice. Add extra damage for the arrow and extra dice and possible crit. What's the difference between Greater and full attack? Greater is a standard action and obviously has a somewhat better chance to hit on average than a full attack. The range restriction is relevant based on how your fights normally go. The number of dice you roll has nothing to do with this. The topic of discussion is "things an archer can do with a standard action". You can make a (weak) argument that Greater Manyshot isn't comparable because of the number of feats it eats. However, 2 more feats (for Manyshot and Greater Manyshot) is a drop in the bucket compared to 10 levels of a subpar prestige class. Of course Greater Manyshot wins on a standard action. It wins vs a full action on certain case bases, thus it is the uberest standard action for a Ranged fight. Greater Manyshot isn't comparable because it is like comparing a single Greatsword attack and a Fireball. Any time you could use Ranged Precision, you can also use Greater Manyshot. You can use a Fireball or a Greatsword swing. Or a Flaming Crossbow shot. And most importantly, both are standard actions, while a full attack is, well, a full round action. Which isn't the point. Also, Manyshot fires up to 4 arrows. So that's more like a full round attack too, and thus by your logic cannot be compared with Ranged Precision. I would explain my logic but since it is such forehead-slappingly-obvious and you still don't get it, I couldn't explain it if I wanted to. And none of this explains why a OotBI is worse at a full attack than a Scout/Ranger/ranged Fighter.
mplindustries 01-28-08, 04:13 PM	And none of this explains why a OotBI is worse at a full attack than a Scout/Ranger/ranged Fighter. The rest you're sort of right, I guess. I agree that Greater Manyshot is far and away better and is not always allowed despite it being the SRD. However, an OotBI is worse at a full attack because a Scout will use Greater Manyshot and get Skirmish to each arrow (if you want Greater Manyshot to be compared to a Full Attack), a Ranger will have Favored Enemy bonuses, Spell bonuses, and generally more feats (at least one more - Improved Precise Shot), and a Fighter will have 5 more feats over those 10 levels, which could be things like Greater Specialization, Weapon Mastery, Improved Rapid Shot, etc. The smartest will be Scout/Rangers with Swift Hunter who can use Greater Manyshot to get all the bonuses of both a Scout and a Ranger. Those 10 levels of OotBI don't nerf their full attacks at all, but 10 levels of almost any other class will actually boost those attacks rather than just not nerfing them. Even Arcane Archer, which is sad.
Cartigan 01-28-08, 04:39 PM	However, an OotBI is worse at a full attack because a Scout will use Greater Manyshot and get Skirmish to each arrow -screeeech- Hold up there, Greater Manyshot is a standard action. We are discussing a full attack (which Scouts can't Skirmish on). (if you want Greater Manyshot to be compared to a Full Attack), I will give you that. a Ranger will have Favored Enemy bonuses, Only if you are against a favored enemy. You can't take "Favored Enemy(omgwtfeverything)." Conditional. Spell bonuses, Possibly, but just as likely that the OotBI does, unless we assume everyone travels alone and can't do anything. And we are dismissing this is base classes vs a PrC. What the PrC can and can't do is conditional on what you were prior to going into it. Hell, you could've been an 8th level Cleric before taking OotBI. and generally more feats (at least one more - Improved Precise Shot), I will give you that is better than Sharpshooting. and a Fighter will have 5 more feats over those 10 levels, which could be things like Greater Specialization, Weapon Mastery, Improved Rapid Shot, etc. I took Improved Rapid Shot before I went into OotBI, and in OotBI you get at least 3 feats - 2 can be Greater Weapon Spec and Ranged Weapon Mastery. Your damage matches that of the Fighter. Even Arcane Archer, which is sad. I just didn't like all the 1/day abilities of the Arcane Archer or I would have taken it.
Serrin 01-28-08, 04:54 PM	Okay, so we both agree on what Ranged Precision, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot and full attacks do. I'm sure glad you typed multiple paragraphs making sure. It only seemed logical, seeing as how I made absolutely no statements that suggested we disagreed on what they did. Greater Manyshot isn't comparable because it is like comparing a single Greatsword attack and a Fireball. See, here's the thing. Greatsword melee and fireballs are very different. Greater Manyshot and the other ranged combat actions are not. Fireballs are ranged, never miss, offer reflex saves, are subject to SR, can be counterspelled, and are limited to the number of spell slots you have. Greatswords are limited by AC, DR, but ignore all the other things the fireball is subject to. Ranged Precision and Greater Manyshot, on the other hand, are very similar. They're both ranged attacks, they're both limited in their range precisely the same for 90% of OotBI's levels, they both consume nothing but arrows, which are hardly a scarce resource. They're both subject to AC and DR. You use the same attack bonuses (with one additional penalty in the case of multishot), you use the same arrows with the same enchantments. You can even use the same bow. And they both take standard actions. These two things are extremely similar in scope. And none of this explains why a OotBI is worse at a full attack than a Scout/Ranger/ranged Fighter. It doesn't have to. I never made that claim. On the other hand, if you get an intelligent mount, a scout can indeed skirmish on a full attack.
Bopple 01-28-08, 10:29 PM	Serrin, I just saw your psionic archer build. But I am not sure what is the point of the build. Mobility is the key point of Manyshot or Ranged Precision. And mobility is also a restriction of Manyshot or Ranged Precision, because you have to be within 30'. But you cannot be a mobile archer anymore if you use Gr.Psionic Shot, because it requires a move action to focus(assuming Psionic Meditation taken). Furthermore, how are you going to be within 30' of target, without moving? If you cannot be within 30', there is neither Manyshot nor Ranged Precision, let alone they are worse than Rapid Shot anyway. The build seems to be unuseable. Please explain, if I got anything wrong.
Bopple 01-28-08, 11:44 PM	And about other issues... 1. DR For archers, it is really no issue. Have you ever seen any archer without different kind of arrows - normal/silver/cold iron/adamantine? There are 3 types which are hard to bypass; Unnamed DR, Epic DR, Lawful/Chaotic DR. Unnamed DR is extremely rare and high CR. It's usually 5/-. It reduces Manyshot by 20, while it reduces RP by 5. But that cannot make up for 100 damage difference. AFAIK, the only mid CR creatures with unnamed DR are elementals(not elemental type, but elemental as separate creature). What is worse, elemental type(including elemental as a creature) is immune to critical. Thus RP does nothing against them. Lawful/Chaotic DR are also extremely rare and high CR. They are usually 10/Lawful and 10/Chaotic. It won't negate the damage difference of 100, either. AFAIK, zelekhut, kolyarut, Gray/Death slaad are the only creatures that have mid CR and chaotic/lawful DR. But zelekhut and kolyarut are immune to critical. That leaves 2 creatures. 2 out of hundreds of monsters. Furthermore, most clerics would be with 1 (Mass) Align Weapon, anyway. Epic DR is a totally different scope of gaming. And it is not hard to bypass, if you are a ranger based archer, because you can take Bane of Enemies feat. And to overcome 100 damage difference(25/epic DR), it should be a high epic game. But by then, you would have a +6 weapon anyway. 2. Full-attack Fighter-only archer is always the king on the hill. He has GWF, GWS and RWM, then Weapon Supremacy in the end. Fighter-based OotBI does not get GWS or Weapon Supremacy. Around the mid lvl, it's about 8 to 10 damage difference. And it's about 30 damage difference at high lvl. Since Fighter-only archer can take Woodland Archer earlier, the gap widens. And of course his Manyshot damage is also better than RP damage. A Fighter+Ranger+Scout multiclassed character is slightly worse(about 7 points of damage per round) than fighter-based OotBI, due to the lack of GWF and loss of 1 BAB, at mid level. But he has much better skills, has Hunter's Mercy, and Favored Enemy bonus. 7 points of difference is mostly negated by them. At high lvl, skirmish damage overcomes the rapid shot, then he would be using Gr.Manyshot instead of Rapid Shot. An expert Ranger+scout archer is not that good at full-attack damaging, because he does not have Ranged Weapon Mastery. But then again, he is an expert, in the first place. And his standard action damage is still better than RP. Ranger-based OotBI can have Hunter's Mercy and fine skills. But then again, it would lose WS and RWM. Its full-attack goes down to the level of an expert. And RP damage would suck the same(actually a bit more but..).
Bopple 01-29-08, 01:04 AM	BTW, skirmishers have an access to some cheap damage boost items like rogue's vest or Skirmisher's boots. You can buy skirmisher's boots at lower lvl and rogue's vest at high lvl. The boots increase the avg damage per round by 3 at mid lvl. When wearing both of them, you get 10~15 damage bonus at high lvl. So that would demand a change of my simulation sheet, but I am too lazy to recalculate and update it.