Manyshot and Palm Throw [Archive] - Wizards Community

Manyshot and Palm Throw [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
heax
06-11-07, 04:31 PM I've been looking around, and I found a few builds using Manyshot mixed with Palm Throw for thrown weapons. How does Manyshot affect thrown weapons? Does it work in the same manner as it does with arrows? The feat seems to expressly imply that it can be done with arrows only, but many builds use it for thrown weapons.
tarkin
06-11-07, 05:09 PM Point 1:

I know it LOOKS like Many shot increases the number of attacks, but that is an optical illusion.

Many Shot lets you do a move while still making the same number of attacks you get in a Full attack action, at a penalty.

Many Shot does not increase the number of attacks.

As such, it is not abusive in any way shape or form to combine Many Shot with Palm Throw. It also is not that big a deal. You take large penalties for the Many shot to get to a rather small benefit, rarely helpfull.

Point 2. Many Shot does specifically mention arrows, as such it only works with them.

Point 3. Because of the general weakness of Many Shot, it is no big deal to House Rule to let people use it with things besides arrows.

Strict Game: No, because of the arrows wording.

Loose Game/Power Game: Yes, but who cares.

Anything Goes: Yes great because we ignore the real rules of Many shot and let people do multiple many shots in a single round.
The_Shaman
06-11-07, 05:50 PM Speaking of which, would a houseruled feat to make palm throw apply for precision damage a la greater manyshot be okay?
Fallenangel359
06-11-07, 06:08 PM where does it ever say palmthrow doesn't apply percision damage?

I love combining palmthrow and tripshot... nasty combo

Great with a monk twf fighter with shurikens flying everywhere

especially great with returning, and splitting
Its omg brokenz with palm throw, rapid shot, twf, greater twf, flurry, and the final master thrower ability... vs touch AC :P

Add in deadeye (dex to damage within 30 feet), using riverine shurikens, and its over. Add the exitwound property to your shurikens :P

If you don't like the monk idea, a good throwing exotic is skiprocks... Thats a little crazy when combined with splitting, and exitwound, with returning
Hsien
06-12-07, 08:59 AM Per Co Warrior errata, you only apply Precision damage once per attack with Palm Throw...similar to Manyshot.

For my MThrower ( dagger ) I prefer the Critical Multiplier increase as DR affects each dagger individually. i.e Palm throw 2 daggers with one attack, possibly get one instance of precision damage but if the creature has DR; each dagger must overcome that DR seperately. I believe that is noted in the FAQ under the Manyshot volley issue.

The MT Trip trick is great, but Palm throw does not provide any significant benefits, imo, to that...but then my group has been fighting a lot of DR heavy mobs lately, whereas the crit multiplier has helped overcome DR.

Telling Blow is also a good feat, imo, to allow you go all out and be able to add in precision damage on criticals. ( does not stack with normal precision damage if you also get that on same attack ).
My record is 53 points of damage, with one normal dagger on a crit.
heax
06-12-07, 03:55 PM See, I'm going to be playing a factotum: One inspiration for +int to hit for all the palm thrown daggers, and +int x 2 for damage, as each damages seperately. If the errata says it can't, well... Shoot. And manyshot won't work with thrown weapons anyway. I can stick with Rapid shot, and take a few to many Fonts of Inspiration to get killer damage.
The_Shaman
06-13-07, 04:12 AM Fallenangel, it makes no sense to have returning shuriken. Since you treat them as ammunition, they are destroyed on any hit and have 50% chance to be destroyed on a miss. I know, I know, it's stupid.

And volley attacks (with only 1 attack roll) apply sneak attack only once afaik.
heax
06-13-07, 04:05 PM What if ammunition (this case=shurikens) was made of adamantine? Would they still be destroyed on every hit and 50% of the misses? Or would the returning feature then make them worth it?
Fallenangel359
06-13-07, 04:09 PM no returning arrows?!?!
madbliza
06-13-07, 04:25 PM Yes, any item enchanted with the returning property will return. That's the whole reason to enchant a thrown item with the returning ability. I would assume that whoever made the item ensured that it would be tough enough to come back. If not, kill that merchant.

A returning arrow is just a silly idea since the item needs to be caught in order to return. For example, I have a bunch of returning arrows I just caught and next round I'll have to drop them just to load one into my bow. It really doesn't make sense.

Ammunition being destroyed on impact? Is there a ruling on that? I always thought you can try to retrieve your arrows or shurikens should you miss. Arrows lodged in people however may break if attempted to be removed. My DM allows us to retrieve a percentage of the arrows used. Albeit at higher levels, fishing up those arrows is pointless when you can buy a ton with just pocket change.
heax
06-13-07, 04:28 PM All ammunition is destroyed on a hit, and has a 50% chance of being destroyed on a miss. I was asking if Adamantine has any effect on this... does an adamantine piece of sharpened metal really get destroyed after being lodged nine inches into a human's gut? I think not.

I just like the 5:1 ratio of shurikens vs daggers for thrown weapons. Makes adamantine +1 returning shuriken a plausible idea... if they don't get destroyed.
madbliza
06-13-07, 04:37 PM Personally, I would say yes. You are correct.
The_Shaman
06-14-07, 07:24 AM By RaW, it should, although I've often considered it a bit crazy. OTOH, you could iirc treat shuriken as thrown weapons, only then you need to pay full price for enhancing them. Me, I'd like a 5:1 or 10:1 ratio best.
tarkin
06-14-07, 11:50 AM No. By RAW you are wrong.

Adamantine does not make an item undestrucable, just harder to destroy because of the hardness. As the damage is not stated out, and destroys an arrow no matter HOW big it is (bigger weapons have more hitpoints), this means that effectively damage is infinite. Adamantine arrows are still destroyed on a hit. (note, see below)

And technically Returning can only be used on a weapon, not ammo.

This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown.

---------

That said, I would allow the following:

House Rule:

You can enchant ammo only (not a bow) as returning. Such arrows return to your quiver.

Cost: increases the cost of the arrow by 30%, including cost for special material. (you still gain the benefit of having effectively more arrows to shoot, as they automatically return to your quiver)

Doing so means:

all hits are still destroyed.
75% of misses are recovered automatically to your quiver, instead of 50% recoverable at the end of the battle.
25% of misses are broken. Once broken, they lose all magical ability.

-------------------

More about Adamantine.

Adamantine arrows are of course destroyed on a hit, despite their hardness of 20. Similarly, a Collosal sized arrow, which surely would have more than 30 hitpoints, is also destroyed.

However, they can be repaired

An arrow that is damaged, like any crafted item, can be repaired for 1/5 the cost to buy

It costs 60 gp to buy an adamantine arrow.

A broken adamantine arrow can be repaired for the cost of 15 gp

That makes a broken adamantine arrow worth 45 gp to the PC, and should be saleable at 22.5 gp

Don't leave them on the ground.
madbliza
06-14-07, 03:21 PM On rules alone then, you would be right... however, logically a human skull will not destroy an adamantine shuriken. So, I would say that if it is an enchanted piece of ammo (excluding arrows because based off the fact that the shaft of arrows can easily snap despite material) shuriken, dart, etc. it no longer follows the rules for ammo. Since it has to be materwork in order to be enchanted, obviously an enchanted shuriken is crafted to last far longer than a normal shuriken based on prereqs. to enchant.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
heax 06-11-07, 04:31 PM	I've been looking around, and I found a few builds using Manyshot mixed with Palm Throw for thrown weapons. How does Manyshot affect thrown weapons? Does it work in the same manner as it does with arrows? The feat seems to expressly imply that it can be done with arrows only, but many builds use it for thrown weapons.
tarkin 06-11-07, 05:09 PM	Point 1: I know it LOOKS like Many shot increases the number of attacks, but that is an optical illusion. Many Shot lets you do a move while still making the same number of attacks you get in a Full attack action, at a penalty. Many Shot does not increase the number of attacks. As such, it is not abusive in any way shape or form to combine Many Shot with Palm Throw. It also is not that big a deal. You take large penalties for the Many shot to get to a rather small benefit, rarely helpfull. Point 2. Many Shot does specifically mention arrows, as such it only works with them. Point 3. Because of the general weakness of Many Shot, it is no big deal to House Rule to let people use it with things besides arrows. Strict Game: No, because of the arrows wording. Loose Game/Power Game: Yes, but who cares. Anything Goes: Yes great because we ignore the real rules of Many shot and let people do multiple many shots in a single round.
The_Shaman 06-11-07, 05:50 PM	Speaking of which, would a houseruled feat to make palm throw apply for precision damage a la greater manyshot be okay?
Fallenangel359 06-11-07, 06:08 PM	where does it ever say palmthrow doesn't apply percision damage? I love combining palmthrow and tripshot... nasty combo Great with a monk twf fighter with shurikens flying everywhere especially great with returning, and splitting Its omg brokenz with palm throw, rapid shot, twf, greater twf, flurry, and the final master thrower ability... vs touch AC :P Add in deadeye (dex to damage within 30 feet), using riverine shurikens, and its over. Add the exitwound property to your shurikens :P If you don't like the monk idea, a good throwing exotic is skiprocks... Thats a little crazy when combined with splitting, and exitwound, with returning
Hsien 06-12-07, 08:59 AM	Per Co Warrior errata, you only apply Precision damage once per attack with Palm Throw...similar to Manyshot. For my MThrower ( dagger ) I prefer the Critical Multiplier increase as DR affects each dagger individually. i.e Palm throw 2 daggers with one attack, possibly get one instance of precision damage but if the creature has DR; each dagger must overcome that DR seperately. I believe that is noted in the FAQ under the Manyshot volley issue. The MT Trip trick is great, but Palm throw does not provide any significant benefits, imo, to that...but then my group has been fighting a lot of DR heavy mobs lately, whereas the crit multiplier has helped overcome DR. Telling Blow is also a good feat, imo, to allow you go all out and be able to add in precision damage on criticals. ( does not stack with normal precision damage if you also get that on same attack ). My record is 53 points of damage, with one normal dagger on a crit.
heax 06-12-07, 03:55 PM	See, I'm going to be playing a factotum: One inspiration for +int to hit for all the palm thrown daggers, and +int x 2 for damage, as each damages seperately. If the errata says it can't, well... Shoot. And manyshot won't work with thrown weapons anyway. I can stick with Rapid shot, and take a few to many Fonts of Inspiration to get killer damage.
The_Shaman 06-13-07, 04:12 AM	Fallenangel, it makes no sense to have returning shuriken. Since you treat them as ammunition, they are destroyed on any hit and have 50% chance to be destroyed on a miss. I know, I know, it's stupid. And volley attacks (with only 1 attack roll) apply sneak attack only once afaik.
heax 06-13-07, 04:05 PM	What if ammunition (this case=shurikens) was made of adamantine? Would they still be destroyed on every hit and 50% of the misses? Or would the returning feature then make them worth it?
Fallenangel359 06-13-07, 04:09 PM	no returning arrows?!?!
madbliza 06-13-07, 04:25 PM	Yes, any item enchanted with the returning property will return. That's the whole reason to enchant a thrown item with the returning ability. I would assume that whoever made the item ensured that it would be tough enough to come back. If not, kill that merchant. A returning arrow is just a silly idea since the item needs to be caught in order to return. For example, I have a bunch of returning arrows I just caught and next round I'll have to drop them just to load one into my bow. It really doesn't make sense. Ammunition being destroyed on impact? Is there a ruling on that? I always thought you can try to retrieve your arrows or shurikens should you miss. Arrows lodged in people however may break if attempted to be removed. My DM allows us to retrieve a percentage of the arrows used. Albeit at higher levels, fishing up those arrows is pointless when you can buy a ton with just pocket change.
heax 06-13-07, 04:28 PM	All ammunition is destroyed on a hit, and has a 50% chance of being destroyed on a miss. I was asking if Adamantine has any effect on this... does an adamantine piece of sharpened metal really get destroyed after being lodged nine inches into a human's gut? I think not. I just like the 5:1 ratio of shurikens vs daggers for thrown weapons. Makes adamantine +1 returning shuriken a plausible idea... if they don't get destroyed.
madbliza 06-13-07, 04:37 PM	Personally, I would say yes. You are correct.
The_Shaman 06-14-07, 07:24 AM	By RaW, it should, although I've often considered it a bit crazy. OTOH, you could iirc treat shuriken as thrown weapons, only then you need to pay full price for enhancing them. Me, I'd like a 5:1 or 10:1 ratio best.
tarkin 06-14-07, 11:50 AM	No. By RAW you are wrong. Adamantine does not make an item undestrucable, just harder to destroy because of the hardness. As the damage is not stated out, and destroys an arrow no matter HOW big it is (bigger weapons have more hitpoints), this means that effectively damage is infinite. Adamantine arrows are still destroyed on a hit. (note, see below) And technically Returning can only be used on a weapon, not ammo. This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. --------- That said, I would allow the following: House Rule: You can enchant ammo only (not a bow) as returning. Such arrows return to your quiver. Cost: increases the cost of the arrow by 30%, including cost for special material. (you still gain the benefit of having effectively more arrows to shoot, as they automatically return to your quiver) Doing so means: all hits are still destroyed. 75% of misses are recovered automatically to your quiver, instead of 50% recoverable at the end of the battle. 25% of misses are broken. Once broken, they lose all magical ability. ------------------- More about Adamantine. Adamantine arrows are of course destroyed on a hit, despite their hardness of 20. Similarly, a Collosal sized arrow, which surely would have more than 30 hitpoints, is also destroyed. However, they can be repaired An arrow that is damaged, like any crafted item, can be repaired for 1/5 the cost to buy It costs 60 gp to buy an adamantine arrow. A broken adamantine arrow can be repaired for the cost of 15 gp That makes a broken adamantine arrow worth 45 gp to the PC, and should be saleable at 22.5 gp Don't leave them on the ground.
madbliza 06-14-07, 03:21 PM	On rules alone then, you would be right... however, logically a human skull will not destroy an adamantine shuriken. So, I would say that if it is an enchanted piece of ammo (excluding arrows because based off the fact that the shaft of arrows can easily snap despite material) shuriken, dart, etc. it no longer follows the rules for ammo. Since it has to be materwork in order to be enchanted, obviously an enchanted shuriken is crafted to last far longer than a normal shuriken based on prereqs. to enchant.