manyshot and skirmish [Archive] - Wizards Community

manyshot and skirmish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dallen
02-24-08, 03:43 PM Under manyshot it says that precise damage is only on the first arrow.
under skirmish it says that you add it to all attacks as long as you move 10ft

I was using this and then got complaints about it.

Do these stack. I would say skirmish is not precise damage like that of sneak attack or OotB's Ranged precision attack.

Also since I am using a splitting bow would the damage be added to both of those arrows or just the one.
StruckingFuggle
02-24-08, 03:52 PM 'Precision damage', is any extra damage expressed in XdY, instead of as a flat bonus.

Manyshot and Skirmish do not stack.

Now, however, stacking things like that is pretty much the entire reason the Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) feat exists. :)
dman11235
02-24-08, 04:09 PM Strucking got it right.

Now as for splitting, my DM is running it that since it requires two attack rolls (one pre arrow), precision damage applies to each one. Basically, precision damage applies once per attack roll. It makes sense, and RAW doesn't really have a way of determining it, other than inference from Greater Manyshot, so we go with that.

And I believe he's running it that manyshot+splitting has two attack rolls, each atack roll gets the arrows, so manyshoting 3 arrows with splitting will be 6 arrows, 2 attack rolls.
Dallen
02-24-08, 04:52 PM Thanks for pointing me to the greater manyshot. My character has that as well.

While I am here is there anything that will allow me to skirmish at more then 30 ft.
Shaggy_Shaggs
02-24-08, 04:57 PM Crossbow Sniper (PH II) would extend your skirmish and/or sneak attack range out to 60 feet, but it requires two feats (weapon focus in a particular kind of crossbow, and crossbow sniper) and then only works with the kind of crossbow you've focused in.
dman11235
02-24-08, 05:35 PM Other than that, the Deepwood Sniper I believe gives you extended percision, and so does the OotBI. I could be thinking of Peerless Archer instead of DWS though. And it could be the 3.5 remake that RobbyPants did.
mplindustries
02-25-08, 03:21 AM 'Precision damage', is any extra damage expressed in XdY, instead of as a flat bonus.

While everything else he said is true, I want to mention briefly that this is not exactly accurate. Precision damage is not actually defined anywhere, but it is well established through examples that sneak attack, and by extension, sudden strike and skirmish are all "precision based."

You can actually get damage expressed in XdY's that is not "precision damage" dice. For example, flaming, shocking, frosting, etc. These are more correctly defined as "extra damage" dice which is specifically mentioned in the SRD as not applying to critical hit multiplications, but do apply to every shot.

Anyway, I don't mean to cause problems or an argument, I just wanted to expand on a common phrasing that is not totally accurate.

And to reinforce whats been said, a good way to look at it is this:

Skirmish applies to each attack roll. Manyshot uses only one attack roll. Greater Manyshot and the Splitting enchantment use multiple attack rolls, so Skirmish applies to each one.
Merestil Haye
02-25-08, 12:32 PM Skirmish applies to each attack roll. Manyshot uses only one attack roll. Greater Manyshot and the Splitting enchantment use multiple attack rolls, so Skirmish applies to each one.This is not quite right.

The game has a concept referred to as a "volley." A volley of attacks is multiple attacks or attack rolls made off a single standard action. Unless something says otherwise, only the first attack roll of a volley can benefit from critical hits and precision damage.

I don't know the exact wording of the Splitting enchantment, I'd need to read it. I do know that Greater Manyshot does allow the multiple arrows to score critical hits and precision damage (it explicitly says that it does).

I agree that not all damage expressed as +xdy is precision damage. See Arcane Strike. I would also point out that there are examples of flat numerical bonuses to damage that are precision damage. See, for example, Craven (from Champions of Ruin).

The FAQ discusses this subject.What is considered as precision-based damage” for the purpose of the Manyshot feat?

Unfortunately, “precision-based” isn’t a term defined in the rules, so this answer relies on extrapolation from the example given in the feat’s description (sneak attack damage).

Comparing the language of sneak attack with the language of various other special abilities that increase damage, two abilities stand out as being extremely similar: skirmish and sudden strike (appearing in the scout and ninja classes, respectively, from Complete Adventurer). All three abilities require the attacker to strike a “vital spot.” More importantly, they rely on some level of precise visual perception of the target: both sneak attack and sudden strike don’t apply if the target has concealment, and skirmish says that you “must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot.”

Whenever extrapolating in this manner, it’s best to err on the side of being conservative. When in doubt, the answer should be “no, this doesn’t count as precision-based damage.” So that's what the designers think a reasonable definition of "precision based damage "is.
Shadowhowler
02-25-08, 04:20 PM Other than that, the Deepwood Sniper I believe gives you extended percision, and so does the OotBI.

Yeah, but you have to take ALL 10 LEVELS of the OotBI to get that 60ft range. Owch. I dunno about Deepwood Sniper... is that a Forgoten Realms specific PrC?

I think there was a Dragon Mag feat for extending Skirmish damage range out to 60ft, can't recal for sure tho.

I'd still like to see a feat at least similar to Crossbow Sniper for Bows.
dman11235
02-25-08, 05:07 PM Deepwood Sniper is in Masters of the Wild. I was going off of memory, so it might not have it. I don't have the book anymore.

And the Dragon Magazine one was Crossbow Sniper.

And I share your sentiments on OotBI. I would never take that class more than 2 levels.

EDIT: Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=811862&) is RobbyPant's 3.5 Deepwood Sniper. It does have ranged precision.
mplindustries
02-25-08, 07:06 PM The game has a concept referred to as a "volley." A volley of attacks is multiple attacks or attack rolls made off a single standard action. Unless something says otherwise, only the first attack roll of a volley can benefit from critical hits and precision damage.

I've honestly never seen an ability that counts as a volley that uses more than one attack roll. Would you mind pointing one out for me?
Shadowhowler
02-25-08, 11:03 PM Deepwood Sniper is in Masters of the Wild. I was going off of memory, so it might not have it. I don't have the book anymore.

And the Dragon Magazine one was Crossbow Sniper.

And I share your sentiments on OotBI. I would never take that class more than 2 levels.

Master's of the Wild? Is that 3.5 or 3.0...? I skiped 3.0 entirly, so I wouldn't know it if it were.

Dragon Magazine had crossbow sniper? Becuase it is also found in Players Handbook 2.

I'm sad about OotBI. I like the idea of the PrC, and with VERY small alterations it could be awesome, but as is it suffers froma bit of suck. I hear the 3.0 version was better.

That 'altered' Deepwood Sniper PrC looks good.
BugHunter
02-25-08, 11:25 PM Precision damage is not actually defined anywhere, but it is well established through examples that sneak attack, and by extension, sudden strike and skirmish are all "precision based."

Take a look in the RC page 42 where it is better defined. There for skirmish and sudden strike is only applied once for manyshot.
dman11235
02-26-08, 12:12 AM MotW is 3.0, hence the update that RobbyPants did.

The 3.0 version of OotBI was better, but still not up to par iirc (don't have that book either).

And I was thinking of Dead Eye, which I always get confused with Crossbow Sniper. I couldn't find any feat in Dragon or Dungeon magazines that increase range on precision damage with a search on Realms Help.
mplindustries
02-26-08, 03:15 AM Crystalkeep lists a scout specific feat from Dragon that boosts skirmish damage range up to 60'. But it only works for Skirmish.

For other random answers:

Masters of the Wild is 3.0

Order of the Bow Initiate is horrible in every way. The biggest problem is that without a very specific de-optimized build, Manyshot should always outperform Ranged Precision. Probably the only way to make it viable would be to allow Ranged Precision damage to add on to your first attack each round, rather than making it a standard action. That way, you weren't completely wasting 10 levels of a class.

I don't own rules compendium, and likely never will, but if someone says Precision Damage is defined in there, I'll believe you. Let me ammend my previous statement:
"Precision damage was not actually defined anywhere, until after they announced a new edition of the rules..."
Merestil Haye
02-26-08, 06:14 AM I've honestly never seen an ability that counts as a volley that uses more than one attack roll. Would you mind pointing one out for me?Scorching Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scorchingRay.htm).

You probably don't think about it that way because it's a spell, but nevertheless that's what it is. Anything treated with the Split Ray feat would also fall into this category, as does Meteor Swarm.
Shadowhowler
02-26-08, 10:26 AM Crystalkeep lists a scout specific feat from Dragon that boosts skirmish damage range up to 60'. But it only works for Skirmish.

Thats right... thats where I saw it, and it was listed as having been from Dragon Magazine.
dman11235
02-26-08, 10:37 AM Huh, Realms Help usually has feats that CK doesn't, not the other way around.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-26-08, 01:06 PM Scorching Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scorchingRay.htm).

You probably don't think about it that way because it's a spell, but nevertheless that's what it is. Anything treated with the Split Ray feat would also fall into this category, as does Meteor Swarm.

Yes but this is the exception, not the rule. Normally anything with it's own attack roll is allowed it's own application of precision damage regardless of the type of action required, but this is specifically contradicted only for spells. One attack roll=One application of precision damage unless specifically restricted, such as with spells according to complete arcane. A twf rogue with the double hit feat would would add his sneak attack damage to both hits on an AOO provided the attacks met the requirements of sneak attack.
Kheldren
02-27-08, 03:47 AM EDIT me being blind and duplicating another response - sorry
Vaelan
02-27-08, 11:17 PM Yes but this is the exception, not the rule.

From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a) article...

Volley Type Attacks

Sometimes, you make multiple attacks with the same attack roll, such as when you use the Manyshot feat, or you make multiple attack rolls as part of the same attack, such as with the scorching ray spell. When you do so, only the first attack in the volley can be a sneak attack.
Doesn't look like an exception to me. In fact, it looks like the very example used in the rule. You can't get much further from an exception than that, can you?

Normally anything with it's own attack roll is allowed it's own application of precision damage regardless of the type of action required, but this is specifically contradicted only for spells.
That article makes no such distinction. It says attacks, not spells.

Since this article was published before Complete Arcane, it obviously isn't just a restatement of the rules presented therein. As such, we may correctly infer that the rule applies to more than just spells.

A twf rogue with the double hit feat would would add his sneak attack damage to both hits on an AOO provided the attacks met the requirements of sneak attack.
Debatable (actually, it very much isn't since the rules aren't anywhere near clear enough). The article says that you only apply precision damage once when making multiple attack rolls as a single attack. If Scorching Ray counts as a single attack, why wouldn't the attacks granted by Double Hit be consider a single attack (of opportunity!)?
wraithstrike
03-30-08, 03:49 PM Each ray in scorching ray would get SA since it gets each gets its own attack roll. That is the reason Improved(Greater) Many shot gets precisions to all the arrows. If Scorching Ray only required one attack roll then SA would only apply one time.

The volley rule is not applied to multiple attack rolls from one attack. It is applied to many attacks off of one roll(manyshot).
StruckingFuggle
03-30-08, 06:10 PM Each ray in scorching ray would get SA since it gets each gets its own attack roll.
If there wasn't an explicit rule saying they didn't, you'd be right.
wraithstrike
03-31-08, 12:47 AM If there wasn't an explicit rule saying they didn't, you'd be right.

Where is said rule?
runestar
03-31-08, 12:49 AM Where is said rule?

In complete arcane.
wraithstrike
03-31-08, 01:08 AM In complete arcane.
This one could be really broken if used as a sneak attack, but crits are random. I might allow the crit thing to go over, but that many sneak attack dice would definitely cause issues.
Jay_Ibero_911
04-02-08, 12:28 AM From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a) article...

Doesn't look like an exception to me. In fact, it looks like the very example used in the rule. You can't get much further from an exception than that, can you?

That article makes no such distinction. It says attacks, not spells.

Since this article was published before Complete Arcane, it obviously isn't just a restatement of the rules presented therein. As such, we may correctly infer that the rule applies to more than just spells.

Debatable (actually, it very much isn't since the rules aren't anywhere near clear enough). The article says that you only apply precision damage once when making multiple attack rolls as a single attack. If Scorching Ray counts as a single attack, why wouldn't the attacks granted by Double Hit be consider a single attack (of opportunity!)?

Hmm, indeed. The rules seem to create a category named volley without sufficiently defining it. It's simple enough with multiple attacks with a single roll, but there needs to be a clearer line as to when multiple attacks with multiple attack rolls is considered a volley for sneak attack. Fortunately in the majority of cases the assorted abilities state how they interact with sneak attack, but there are still a few undecided cases (Such as double hit, two weapon spring attack Tempest ability, Rapid Blitz and Bounding Assault to name a few)
mplindustries
04-02-08, 01:48 AM I was under the impression (though I have not recently looked into it, so I may be wrong), that a spell could only trigger sneak attack damage once per spell per opponent. This could explain why Searing Ray is an example, as you can't hit them for sneak attack damage more than once in the volley aimed at that opponent. However, if I remember it correctly, you could fire Searing Rays at multiple opponents who all meet the required conditions and apply sneak attack damage to each one once.

Thus, it is a function of the ruling on spells (once per target) rather than a function of the (admittedly vague and mostly implied) ruling on volleys (once per attack roll).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dallen 02-24-08, 03:43 PM	Under manyshot it says that precise damage is only on the first arrow. under skirmish it says that you add it to all attacks as long as you move 10ft I was using this and then got complaints about it. Do these stack. I would say skirmish is not precise damage like that of sneak attack or OotB's Ranged precision attack. Also since I am using a splitting bow would the damage be added to both of those arrows or just the one.
StruckingFuggle 02-24-08, 03:52 PM	'Precision damage', is any extra damage expressed in XdY, instead of as a flat bonus. Manyshot and Skirmish do not stack. Now, however, stacking things like that is pretty much the entire reason the Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) feat exists. :)
dman11235 02-24-08, 04:09 PM	Strucking got it right. Now as for splitting, my DM is running it that since it requires two attack rolls (one pre arrow), precision damage applies to each one. Basically, precision damage applies once per attack roll. It makes sense, and RAW doesn't really have a way of determining it, other than inference from Greater Manyshot, so we go with that. And I believe he's running it that manyshot+splitting has two attack rolls, each atack roll gets the arrows, so manyshoting 3 arrows with splitting will be 6 arrows, 2 attack rolls.
Dallen 02-24-08, 04:52 PM	Thanks for pointing me to the greater manyshot. My character has that as well. While I am here is there anything that will allow me to skirmish at more then 30 ft.
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-24-08, 04:57 PM	Crossbow Sniper (PH II) would extend your skirmish and/or sneak attack range out to 60 feet, but it requires two feats (weapon focus in a particular kind of crossbow, and crossbow sniper) and then only works with the kind of crossbow you've focused in.
dman11235 02-24-08, 05:35 PM	Other than that, the Deepwood Sniper I believe gives you extended percision, and so does the OotBI. I could be thinking of Peerless Archer instead of DWS though. And it could be the 3.5 remake that RobbyPants did.
mplindustries 02-25-08, 03:21 AM	'Precision damage', is any extra damage expressed in XdY, instead of as a flat bonus. While everything else he said is true, I want to mention briefly that this is not exactly accurate. Precision damage is not actually defined anywhere, but it is well established through examples that sneak attack, and by extension, sudden strike and skirmish are all "precision based." You can actually get damage expressed in XdY's that is not "precision damage" dice. For example, flaming, shocking, frosting, etc. These are more correctly defined as "extra damage" dice which is specifically mentioned in the SRD as not applying to critical hit multiplications, but do apply to every shot. Anyway, I don't mean to cause problems or an argument, I just wanted to expand on a common phrasing that is not totally accurate. And to reinforce whats been said, a good way to look at it is this: Skirmish applies to each attack roll. Manyshot uses only one attack roll. Greater Manyshot and the Splitting enchantment use multiple attack rolls, so Skirmish applies to each one.
Merestil Haye 02-25-08, 12:32 PM	Skirmish applies to each attack roll. Manyshot uses only one attack roll. Greater Manyshot and the Splitting enchantment use multiple attack rolls, so Skirmish applies to each one.This is not quite right. The game has a concept referred to as a "volley." A volley of attacks is multiple attacks or attack rolls made off a single standard action. Unless something says otherwise, only the first attack roll of a volley can benefit from critical hits and precision damage. I don't know the exact wording of the Splitting enchantment, I'd need to read it. I do know that Greater Manyshot does allow the multiple arrows to score critical hits and precision damage (it explicitly says that it does). I agree that not all damage expressed as +xdy is precision damage. See Arcane Strike. I would also point out that there are examples of flat numerical bonuses to damage that are precision damage. See, for example, Craven (from Champions of Ruin). The FAQ discusses this subject.What is considered as precision-based damage” for the purpose of the Manyshot feat? Unfortunately, “precision-based” isn’t a term defined in the rules, so this answer relies on extrapolation from the example given in the feat’s description (sneak attack damage). Comparing the language of sneak attack with the language of various other special abilities that increase damage, two abilities stand out as being extremely similar: skirmish and sudden strike (appearing in the scout and ninja classes, respectively, from Complete Adventurer). All three abilities require the attacker to strike a “vital spot.” More importantly, they rely on some level of precise visual perception of the target: both sneak attack and sudden strike don’t apply if the target has concealment, and skirmish says that you “must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot.” Whenever extrapolating in this manner, it’s best to err on the side of being conservative. When in doubt, the answer should be “no, this doesn’t count as precision-based damage.” So that's what the designers think a reasonable definition of "precision based damage "is.
Shadowhowler 02-25-08, 04:20 PM	Other than that, the Deepwood Sniper I believe gives you extended percision, and so does the OotBI. Yeah, but you have to take ALL 10 LEVELS of the OotBI to get that 60ft range. Owch. I dunno about Deepwood Sniper... is that a Forgoten Realms specific PrC? I think there was a Dragon Mag feat for extending Skirmish damage range out to 60ft, can't recal for sure tho. I'd still like to see a feat at least similar to Crossbow Sniper for Bows.
dman11235 02-25-08, 05:07 PM	Deepwood Sniper is in Masters of the Wild. I was going off of memory, so it might not have it. I don't have the book anymore. And the Dragon Magazine one was Crossbow Sniper. And I share your sentiments on OotBI. I would never take that class more than 2 levels. EDIT: Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=811862&) is RobbyPant's 3.5 Deepwood Sniper. It does have ranged precision.
mplindustries 02-25-08, 07:06 PM	The game has a concept referred to as a "volley." A volley of attacks is multiple attacks or attack rolls made off a single standard action. Unless something says otherwise, only the first attack roll of a volley can benefit from critical hits and precision damage. I've honestly never seen an ability that counts as a volley that uses more than one attack roll. Would you mind pointing one out for me?
Shadowhowler 02-25-08, 11:03 PM	Deepwood Sniper is in Masters of the Wild. I was going off of memory, so it might not have it. I don't have the book anymore. And the Dragon Magazine one was Crossbow Sniper. And I share your sentiments on OotBI. I would never take that class more than 2 levels. Master's of the Wild? Is that 3.5 or 3.0...? I skiped 3.0 entirly, so I wouldn't know it if it were. Dragon Magazine had crossbow sniper? Becuase it is also found in Players Handbook 2. I'm sad about OotBI. I like the idea of the PrC, and with VERY small alterations it could be awesome, but as is it suffers froma bit of suck. I hear the 3.0 version was better. That 'altered' Deepwood Sniper PrC looks good.
BugHunter 02-25-08, 11:25 PM	Precision damage is not actually defined anywhere, but it is well established through examples that sneak attack, and by extension, sudden strike and skirmish are all "precision based." Take a look in the RC page 42 where it is better defined. There for skirmish and sudden strike is only applied once for manyshot.
dman11235 02-26-08, 12:12 AM	MotW is 3.0, hence the update that RobbyPants did. The 3.0 version of OotBI was better, but still not up to par iirc (don't have that book either). And I was thinking of Dead Eye, which I always get confused with Crossbow Sniper. I couldn't find any feat in Dragon or Dungeon magazines that increase range on precision damage with a search on Realms Help.
mplindustries 02-26-08, 03:15 AM	Crystalkeep lists a scout specific feat from Dragon that boosts skirmish damage range up to 60'. But it only works for Skirmish. For other random answers: Masters of the Wild is 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate is horrible in every way. The biggest problem is that without a very specific de-optimized build, Manyshot should always outperform Ranged Precision. Probably the only way to make it viable would be to allow Ranged Precision damage to add on to your first attack each round, rather than making it a standard action. That way, you weren't completely wasting 10 levels of a class. I don't own rules compendium, and likely never will, but if someone says Precision Damage is defined in there, I'll believe you. Let me ammend my previous statement: "Precision damage was not actually defined anywhere, until after they announced a new edition of the rules..."
Merestil Haye 02-26-08, 06:14 AM	I've honestly never seen an ability that counts as a volley that uses more than one attack roll. Would you mind pointing one out for me?Scorching Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scorchingRay.htm). You probably don't think about it that way because it's a spell, but nevertheless that's what it is. Anything treated with the Split Ray feat would also fall into this category, as does Meteor Swarm.
Shadowhowler 02-26-08, 10:26 AM	Crystalkeep lists a scout specific feat from Dragon that boosts skirmish damage range up to 60'. But it only works for Skirmish. Thats right... thats where I saw it, and it was listed as having been from Dragon Magazine.
dman11235 02-26-08, 10:37 AM	Huh, Realms Help usually has feats that CK doesn't, not the other way around.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-26-08, 01:06 PM	Scorching Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scorchingRay.htm). You probably don't think about it that way because it's a spell, but nevertheless that's what it is. Anything treated with the Split Ray feat would also fall into this category, as does Meteor Swarm. Yes but this is the exception, not the rule. Normally anything with it's own attack roll is allowed it's own application of precision damage regardless of the type of action required, but this is specifically contradicted only for spells. One attack roll=One application of precision damage unless specifically restricted, such as with spells according to complete arcane. A twf rogue with the double hit feat would would add his sneak attack damage to both hits on an AOO provided the attacks met the requirements of sneak attack.
Kheldren 02-27-08, 03:47 AM	EDIT me being blind and duplicating another response - sorry
Vaelan 02-27-08, 11:17 PM	Yes but this is the exception, not the rule. From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a) article... Volley Type Attacks Sometimes, you make multiple attacks with the same attack roll, such as when you use the Manyshot feat, or you make multiple attack rolls as part of the same attack, such as with the scorching ray spell. When you do so, only the first attack in the volley can be a sneak attack. Doesn't look like an exception to me. In fact, it looks like the very example used in the rule. You can't get much further from an exception than that, can you? Normally anything with it's own attack roll is allowed it's own application of precision damage regardless of the type of action required, but this is specifically contradicted only for spells. That article makes no such distinction. It says attacks, not spells. Since this article was published before Complete Arcane, it obviously isn't just a restatement of the rules presented therein. As such, we may correctly infer that the rule applies to more than just spells. A twf rogue with the double hit feat would would add his sneak attack damage to both hits on an AOO provided the attacks met the requirements of sneak attack. Debatable (actually, it very much isn't since the rules aren't anywhere near clear enough). The article says that you only apply precision damage once when making multiple attack rolls as a single attack. If Scorching Ray counts as a single attack, why wouldn't the attacks granted by Double Hit be consider a single attack (of opportunity!)?
wraithstrike 03-30-08, 03:49 PM	Each ray in scorching ray would get SA since it gets each gets its own attack roll. That is the reason Improved(Greater) Many shot gets precisions to all the arrows. If Scorching Ray only required one attack roll then SA would only apply one time. The volley rule is not applied to multiple attack rolls from one attack. It is applied to many attacks off of one roll(manyshot).
StruckingFuggle 03-30-08, 06:10 PM	Each ray in scorching ray would get SA since it gets each gets its own attack roll. If there wasn't an explicit rule saying they didn't, you'd be right.
wraithstrike 03-31-08, 12:47 AM	If there wasn't an explicit rule saying they didn't, you'd be right. Where is said rule?
runestar 03-31-08, 12:49 AM	Where is said rule? In complete arcane.
wraithstrike 03-31-08, 01:08 AM	In complete arcane. This one could be really broken if used as a sneak attack, but crits are random. I might allow the crit thing to go over, but that many sneak attack dice would definitely cause issues.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-02-08, 12:28 AM	From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a) article... Doesn't look like an exception to me. In fact, it looks like the very example used in the rule. You can't get much further from an exception than that, can you? That article makes no such distinction. It says attacks, not spells. Since this article was published before Complete Arcane, it obviously isn't just a restatement of the rules presented therein. As such, we may correctly infer that the rule applies to more than just spells. Debatable (actually, it very much isn't since the rules aren't anywhere near clear enough). The article says that you only apply precision damage once when making multiple attack rolls as a single attack. If Scorching Ray counts as a single attack, why wouldn't the attacks granted by Double Hit be consider a single attack (of opportunity!)? Hmm, indeed. The rules seem to create a category named volley without sufficiently defining it. It's simple enough with multiple attacks with a single roll, but there needs to be a clearer line as to when multiple attacks with multiple attack rolls is considered a volley for sneak attack. Fortunately in the majority of cases the assorted abilities state how they interact with sneak attack, but there are still a few undecided cases (Such as double hit, two weapon spring attack Tempest ability, Rapid Blitz and Bounding Assault to name a few)
mplindustries 04-02-08, 01:48 AM	I was under the impression (though I have not recently looked into it, so I may be wrong), that a spell could only trigger sneak attack damage once per spell per opponent. This could explain why Searing Ray is an example, as you can't hit them for sneak attack damage more than once in the volley aimed at that opponent. However, if I remember it correctly, you could fire Searing Rays at multiple opponents who all meet the required conditions and apply sneak attack damage to each one once. Thus, it is a function of the ruling on spells (once per target) rather than a function of the (admittedly vague and mostly implied) ruling on volleys (once per attack roll).