Marrying Monk and Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Marrying Monk and Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pennarin
04-06-07, 09:47 PM The subject has probably been done to death, but whatever you can resurrect from the ashes would be helpful ;)

All WotC books matter in this case, from Eberron to Forgotten, passing through Epic Level Handbook and Player's Handbook II, as long as the feat is not regional or race-specific or any of the usual issues WotC likes to attach to its feats :D

Eberron Campaign Setting (ECS) has the Monastic Training feat wich allows you to progress as a fighter without blocking further progress in the monk class. That's the first step.

Second, ki only works with unarmed strikes...how can I make it work with weapons?

Third, ECS also has three feats that each allow a character to use a specific non-monk weapon as a monk weapon: I would prefer a feat allowing for a more general choice of weapon, but it's a start.

EDIT: Maybe there is a monk class variant somewhere that allows you to lose unarmed bonuses and instead focus on weapon use? Or maybe an ability/feat that allows you to treat your monk weapon as an unarmed strike, benefiting from such feats as Stunning Fist and Freezing the Lifeblood?
Wraithwin
04-07-07, 12:23 AM Well... there's a compilation of WotC official variants for classes up on CrystalKeep.com - some of which might work, but I'm not sure if any are what you're going for.

In retrospect, it's strange that the benefits of Ki-Strike don't apply to Monk weapons, or rather that there isn't a feat to allow it to. There honestly should be one if there isn't. Then take that feat that lets you treat a two-bladed sword as a monk weapon... Heh.

The first option I came across was the "Pugilist", a Fighter variant (Dragon 310 p37, or the Crystal Keep compilation). Inclines you more towards unarmed, gives you two feats at first level, though they're pre-determined (Improved Unarmed Strike and Toughness). You can choose from a list of abilities exclusive to them to take in place of feats when the fighter would normally gain them as well, one of which works somewhat like flurry of blows. Proficiencies and skills change a bit, but otherwise it might be interesting if you were to take Superior Unarmed Strike (from ToB).

The next I found was "Martial Monk" variant (Dragon 310, p45 - or the CK compilation). Their skills change a little and they only get 3+Int skill points per level... weird... but they can cross-class freely with Fighter (without that feat), they can take feats from the Fighter bonus list as instead of their normal bonus feats, and I'm pretty sure their monk levels are supposed to count as Fighter levels too, though it wouldn't hurt if they didn't. This would be the prime choice for literally slapping the two togeather. The Monastic Training feat is pretty much included, and the feat swap gives you more choices.

I also like the "Wild Monk" variant (Gives a Monk Wildshape... Insert wicked laugh), the "Bane of the Clockwork" variant (Lets you Stunning-Fist constructs, as well as crit them or quivering palm them with unarmed strikes), and the "Decisive Strike" variant... really, there's a bunch of cool variants in that thing.

Also the "Versatile Unarmed Strike" feat from PHBII. It doesn't give you magical qualities to your attacks or whatever, but it does allow you to emulate all 3 physical damage categories (Piercing/Slashing/Bludgeoning) with your unarmed strikes.

Hope this was somewhat helpful. :)
Xeviat-DM
04-07-07, 03:38 AM There is an old weapon enhancement (Ki Striking, or something like that, a +1 property) that let your Ki strike and your Stunning Fist be channeled through the weapon's attacks.

Additionally, in my games, I've removed the notion of "monk weapons", and I allow characters to flurry with any light or double weapon they are proficient in. Also, the exotic monk weapons have changed proficiency (kama and sickle are merged as a simple weapon, saingham is a simple weapon and is also called a light spear, and the nunchaku is a martial weapon and is also called a light flail). I've done this mostly for balance and consistancy; if a monk can flurry a kama, why not a sickle, or why not a light mace or any other balanced light simple weapon.

As for allowing multiclassing between the fighter and monk, I wonder what your ultimate goal is. In my games, doing such is considered to be abandoning the monk path, as you will never achieve perfection (Monk 20's perfect self); achieving epic levels, when it happens in my games, will be a process. But your game isn't my games, so I'd like to know why you wish to multiclass the two classes?
Pennarin
04-07-07, 08:34 PM Mmm, as a guy who originally disliked monks...I totally failed to notice the ki focus weapon special ability from the DMG. Nice catch :D

Ki Focus: The magic weapon serves as a channel for the wielder’s ki, allowing her to use her special ki attacks through the weapon as if they were unarmed attacks. These attacks include the monk’s stunning attack, ki strike, and quivering palm, as well as the Stunning Fist feat. Only melee weapons can have the ki focus ability.

Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a monk; Price +1 bonus.

As for why I would want to mix fighter and monk levels? Well....that's an imperfect marriage. What I really want is a fighter with access to a PrC or epic PrC that currently doesn't exist in a WotC book.
Do you recall the fight scenes, one on one, between Nameless and the three assassins Broken Sword, Flying Snow, and Sky, in the movie Hero?

Those scenes are quite...lacking in flying around (for the most part) for a chinese movie, and instead focus on what can only be described as epic martial performances. I'd like to create an NPC able to do similar things as what Nameless can do, for example.

Fighter and monk levels seem to help, but there are not enough feats - even for a 30th level epic character - between those classes to be able to do what they did. Besides, monk levels provide for abilities not present in the movie, such as diamond body and such, or unarmed strikes.

What I'd really need is, like I said, a PrC or epic PrC that provides flurry of blows, greater flurry, unarmored AC bonus, unarmored speed bonus, and the equivalent of the ranger's combat style ability tree that forces a specialization between single or two-weapon combat. It would mimick what is seen in that movie about our heroes, basically fighting with a longsword or two, or a spear/glaive (possibly allowing you to use such a reach weapon on foes adjacent to yourself).
Pennarin
04-07-07, 10:55 PM Mmm, dunno if anybody finds this interesting...but here we go.

For a character not unlike Nameless, wielding a single nomagical longsword and no armor....

Human paragon 1*/fighter 9/weapon master** 10/epic fighter 15

* Uses the Adaptive Learning class ability to choose Tumble as a class skill for all classes.
** From Sword & Fist.

Feats provided by combo -
human feat: 1
character feats: 7
fighter feats: 6
epic character feats: 5
epic fighter feats: 7

- Character, human, and fighter feats: Cleave, Combat Brute, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deft Opportunist, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Sunder, Lunging Strike, Mobility, Power Attack, Whirlwind Attack
- Epic character and fighter feats: Armed Deflection*, Blinding Speed, Damage Reduction, Devastating Critical, Epic Weapon Focus, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Infinite Deflection, Legendary Acrobat, Overwhelming Critical [To have these epic feats the character needs to take the following non-epic feats using epic feat slots: Improved Critical, Weapon Focus]

* From WotC's Epic Insights Compilation.
Xeviat-DM
04-08-07, 05:01 AM I'd advise you to check out Tome of Battle if you want epic asian fantasy goodness.
Pennarin
04-08-07, 12:55 PM Isn't that book filled with alternate rules? I don't want to dabble with weird new rules/options. I don't even own Oriental Adventures, just to say....

Btw, I'm not really interested in asian goodness, just in this particular case :D
PhaedrusXY
04-08-07, 04:51 PM The Shou Disciple is a five level Prestige Class that stacks with monk for flurry and unarmed damage (or gives you its own unarmed progression, whichever is better). It has full base attack progression, and gives you the ability to make your flurry of blows in light armor and while wielding any weapon. It is in the Unapproachable East book (a FR supplement). It is a very simple and satisfying solution for building a fighter/monk type of character.
Staple
04-08-07, 05:53 PM Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords isn't an alternative rules book. Rather, it introduces the concept of Martial Maneuvers and Stances. Essentially, it's kung fu. Mechanically, this plays out as a third wheel to the Magic/Psionics setup, with slightly different preparation but similar execution (the biggest similarity is that most Martial Strikes are standard actions, like spells, with the big difference being that they are also attacks. There are also "boosts" (typically swift actions) and "counters" (typically immediate actions)).

Tome of Battle also introduces three new classes to make use of maneuvers, included the probably-overpowered Warblade. It's definitely a power gaming supplement, but it will let you do crazy kung fu moves, including a few where you fry the opponent with your mind. Ah, Diamond Mind.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pennarin 04-06-07, 09:47 PM	The subject has probably been done to death, but whatever you can resurrect from the ashes would be helpful ;) All WotC books matter in this case, from Eberron to Forgotten, passing through Epic Level Handbook and Player's Handbook II, as long as the feat is not regional or race-specific or any of the usual issues WotC likes to attach to its feats :D Eberron Campaign Setting (ECS) has the Monastic Training feat wich allows you to progress as a fighter without blocking further progress in the monk class. That's the first step. Second, ki only works with unarmed strikes...how can I make it work with weapons? Third, ECS also has three feats that each allow a character to use a specific non-monk weapon as a monk weapon: I would prefer a feat allowing for a more general choice of weapon, but it's a start. EDIT: Maybe there is a monk class variant somewhere that allows you to lose unarmed bonuses and instead focus on weapon use? Or maybe an ability/feat that allows you to treat your monk weapon as an unarmed strike, benefiting from such feats as Stunning Fist and Freezing the Lifeblood?
Wraithwin 04-07-07, 12:23 AM	Well... there's a compilation of WotC official variants for classes up on CrystalKeep.com - some of which might work, but I'm not sure if any are what you're going for. In retrospect, it's strange that the benefits of Ki-Strike don't apply to Monk weapons, or rather that there isn't a feat to allow it to. There honestly should be one if there isn't. Then take that feat that lets you treat a two-bladed sword as a monk weapon... Heh. The first option I came across was the "Pugilist", a Fighter variant (Dragon 310 p37, or the Crystal Keep compilation). Inclines you more towards unarmed, gives you two feats at first level, though they're pre-determined (Improved Unarmed Strike and Toughness). You can choose from a list of abilities exclusive to them to take in place of feats when the fighter would normally gain them as well, one of which works somewhat like flurry of blows. Proficiencies and skills change a bit, but otherwise it might be interesting if you were to take Superior Unarmed Strike (from ToB). The next I found was "Martial Monk" variant (Dragon 310, p45 - or the CK compilation). Their skills change a little and they only get 3+Int skill points per level... weird... but they can cross-class freely with Fighter (without that feat), they can take feats from the Fighter bonus list as instead of their normal bonus feats, and I'm pretty sure their monk levels are supposed to count as Fighter levels too, though it wouldn't hurt if they didn't. This would be the prime choice for literally slapping the two togeather. The Monastic Training feat is pretty much included, and the feat swap gives you more choices. I also like the "Wild Monk" variant (Gives a Monk Wildshape... Insert wicked laugh), the "Bane of the Clockwork" variant (Lets you Stunning-Fist constructs, as well as crit them or quivering palm them with unarmed strikes), and the "Decisive Strike" variant... really, there's a bunch of cool variants in that thing. Also the "Versatile Unarmed Strike" feat from PHBII. It doesn't give you magical qualities to your attacks or whatever, but it does allow you to emulate all 3 physical damage categories (Piercing/Slashing/Bludgeoning) with your unarmed strikes. Hope this was somewhat helpful. :)
Xeviat-DM 04-07-07, 03:38 AM	There is an old weapon enhancement (Ki Striking, or something like that, a +1 property) that let your Ki strike and your Stunning Fist be channeled through the weapon's attacks. Additionally, in my games, I've removed the notion of "monk weapons", and I allow characters to flurry with any light or double weapon they are proficient in. Also, the exotic monk weapons have changed proficiency (kama and sickle are merged as a simple weapon, saingham is a simple weapon and is also called a light spear, and the nunchaku is a martial weapon and is also called a light flail). I've done this mostly for balance and consistancy; if a monk can flurry a kama, why not a sickle, or why not a light mace or any other balanced light simple weapon. As for allowing multiclassing between the fighter and monk, I wonder what your ultimate goal is. In my games, doing such is considered to be abandoning the monk path, as you will never achieve perfection (Monk 20's perfect self); achieving epic levels, when it happens in my games, will be a process. But your game isn't my games, so I'd like to know why you wish to multiclass the two classes?
Pennarin 04-07-07, 08:34 PM	Mmm, as a guy who originally disliked monks...I totally failed to notice the ki focus weapon special ability from the DMG. Nice catch :D Ki Focus: The magic weapon serves as a channel for the wielder’s ki, allowing her to use her special ki attacks through the weapon as if they were unarmed attacks. These attacks include the monk’s stunning attack, ki strike, and quivering palm, as well as the Stunning Fist feat. Only melee weapons can have the ki focus ability. Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a monk; Price +1 bonus. As for why I would want to mix fighter and monk levels? Well....that's an imperfect marriage. What I really want is a fighter with access to a PrC or epic PrC that currently doesn't exist in a WotC book. Do you recall the fight scenes, one on one, between Nameless and the three assassins Broken Sword, Flying Snow, and Sky, in the movie Hero? Those scenes are quite...lacking in flying around (for the most part) for a chinese movie, and instead focus on what can only be described as epic martial performances. I'd like to create an NPC able to do similar things as what Nameless can do, for example. Fighter and monk levels seem to help, but there are not enough feats - even for a 30th level epic character - between those classes to be able to do what they did. Besides, monk levels provide for abilities not present in the movie, such as diamond body and such, or unarmed strikes. What I'd really need is, like I said, a PrC or epic PrC that provides flurry of blows, greater flurry, unarmored AC bonus, unarmored speed bonus, and the equivalent of the ranger's combat style ability tree that forces a specialization between single or two-weapon combat. It would mimick what is seen in that movie about our heroes, basically fighting with a longsword or two, or a spear/glaive (possibly allowing you to use such a reach weapon on foes adjacent to yourself).
Pennarin 04-07-07, 10:55 PM	Mmm, dunno if anybody finds this interesting...but here we go. For a character not unlike Nameless, wielding a single nomagical longsword and no armor.... Human paragon 1/fighter 9/weapon master* 10/epic fighter 15 * Uses the Adaptive Learning class ability to choose Tumble as a class skill for all classes. ** From Sword & Fist. Feats provided by combo - human feat: 1 character feats: 7 fighter feats: 6 epic character feats: 5 epic fighter feats: 7 - Character, human, and fighter feats: Cleave, Combat Brute, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deft Opportunist, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Sunder, Lunging Strike, Mobility, Power Attack, Whirlwind Attack - Epic character and fighter feats: Armed Deflection, Blinding Speed, Damage Reduction, Devastating Critical, Epic Weapon Focus, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Infinite Deflection, Legendary Acrobat, Overwhelming Critical [To have these epic feats the character needs to take the following non-epic feats using epic feat slots: Improved Critical, Weapon Focus] From WotC's Epic Insights Compilation.
Xeviat-DM 04-08-07, 05:01 AM	I'd advise you to check out Tome of Battle if you want epic asian fantasy goodness.
Pennarin 04-08-07, 12:55 PM	Isn't that book filled with alternate rules? I don't want to dabble with weird new rules/options. I don't even own Oriental Adventures, just to say.... Btw, I'm not really interested in asian goodness, just in this particular case :D
PhaedrusXY 04-08-07, 04:51 PM	The Shou Disciple is a five level Prestige Class that stacks with monk for flurry and unarmed damage (or gives you its own unarmed progression, whichever is better). It has full base attack progression, and gives you the ability to make your flurry of blows in light armor and while wielding any weapon. It is in the Unapproachable East book (a FR supplement). It is a very simple and satisfying solution for building a fighter/monk type of character.
Staple 04-08-07, 05:53 PM	Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords isn't an alternative rules book. Rather, it introduces the concept of Martial Maneuvers and Stances. Essentially, it's kung fu. Mechanically, this plays out as a third wheel to the Magic/Psionics setup, with slightly different preparation but similar execution (the biggest similarity is that most Martial Strikes are standard actions, like spells, with the big difference being that they are also attacks. There are also "boosts" (typically swift actions) and "counters" (typically immediate actions)). Tome of Battle also introduces three new classes to make use of maneuvers, included the probably-overpowered Warblade. It's definitely a power gaming supplement, but it will let you do crazy kung fu moves, including a few where you fry the opponent with your mind. Ah, Diamond Mind.