Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Old_School_Overlord 01-10-08, 06:48 PM	I've been reading Tome of battle (great stuff!) and find the Martial Study feat a little vague on the requiements. It allows you to gain a maneuver for which you fulfill the prerequisite (a specified number of maneuvers in that discipline) and can be taken up to three times. I can't see anything that would prevent low level characters loading up on these and Martial stance to gain access to high level maneuvers very early - what am i missing here?
MC_Templar 01-10-08, 06:54 PM	high level manuvers still have initiator level requirements that would need to be met. So your 1st lvl human fighter can't blow all 3 feats for this and qualify for a lvl 3 or 4 manuver. Based on my reading, though, he could take a first lvl manuver or two and a first lvl stance and enhance his combat flexibilty a bit.
Old_School_Overlord 01-10-08, 07:00 PM	Hmmm, so the highest level maneuvers available to non-martial characters would be 5th at 18th level? Shame...that seems to limit the feat a little too much, but i guess the alternative would be the potential for Inferno Blast at 3rd level.
Droma 01-10-08, 07:18 PM	It balances the feat. Otherwise fighters would end up being almost as good as the martial adept classes at the things they do. Plus all the other fighter bonus feats. Feats shouldnt put you on par with another classes class features.
runestar 01-10-08, 09:12 PM	There are still some nice low lv maneuvers worth taking. Pounce 1/encounter at lv18 comes a tad late, but better late than never. The iron mind one which lets you make a touch attack is good too in tandem with loading up on power attack. Ditto for wall of blades, since your AC is likely to be crap after charging (using shock trooper, rage, frenzy etc). This paves the way for iron heart surge at 10th lv. I am sure you can find some to customize your fighter build.:)
aelryinth 01-12-08, 02:17 AM	It balances the feat. Otherwise fighters would end up being almost as good as the martial adept classes at the things they do. Plus all the other fighter bonus feats. Feats should put you on par with another classes class features. Fixed, for Fighters, because feats are a fighter's class features. ==Aelryinth
StruckingFuggle 01-12-08, 11:11 PM	Fixed, for Fighters, because feats are a fighter's class features. And? So what if they are? That doesn't automatically, on its own, mean that feats should be equal to class features (which then seems to also suggest that all class features are equal); maybe it just means the fighter is a poorly-designed class with mediocre class features. That said, an interesting note: If I'm reading it right and the replies right, a Crusader 1 / Warblade 17 should be able to learn Strike of Righteous Vitality with Martial Study.
InkBlot 01-12-08, 11:22 PM	Initiator levels from different classes are kept seperate. A Crusader1/Warblade17 would have an initiator level of 9 for her Crusader maneuvers/stances, and an initiator level of 17 for her Warblade maneuvers/stances. However, Martial Study would allow a 17th level Warblade to learn Strike Of Righteous Vitality as if it were a Warblade maneuver. The only thing stoping a pure Warblade from picking up high level Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, and Devoted Spirit maneuvers is prerequisites. Martial Study can only be taken three times, so anything that requires more than two maneuvers as prerequisites is right out. Please note that I haven't bothered to crack open the ToB to check the level and prereqs of Strike Of Righteous Vitality.
aelryinth 01-13-08, 12:31 AM	And? So what if they are? That doesn't automatically, on its own, mean that feats should be equal to class features (which then seems to also suggest that all class features are equal); maybe it just means the fighter is a poorly-designed class with mediocre class features. That said, an interesting note: If I'm reading it right and the replies right, a Crusader 1 / Warblade 17 should be able to learn Strike of Righteous Vitality with Martial Study. Nor, does it mean that feats should NOT be equal to class features...when it's pretty plain that if things are to be of equal power across levels, they should, in the end, be comparable. Hence why later feats they are putting in are so much better, and why 4E feats are doing what class features did, and are scaling, and are viable at the levels they are taken. The Fighter could easily be fixed with minor tweaks (4 SP, better skills, a boost to a save), and better feats. With great feats to pick from, +11 feats becomes a SWEET class ability. ===Aelryinth
zerombr 01-13-08, 01:35 AM	i dunno if Martial Study is worth it, I mean, to get a maneuver you still have to have the prereq of previous maneuvers to get anything higher level, right? I'd rather just take a level of the sublime way myself, rather than use a feat to gain one maneuver that's probably only rank 1 or 2
runestar 01-13-08, 01:42 AM	Martial Study can only be taken three times, so anything that requires more than two maneuvers as prerequisites is right out. Not quite, since stances count as maneuvers known, and unlike martial study, there is no limit on how many times martial stance can be taken. Strike of righteous vitality can be obtained by taking 2 devoted defender maneuvers, 1 stance, and taking martial study a 3rd time. Inferno blast is possible (2 martial study, 3 martial stance, 3rd martial study for inferno blast). It is extremely expensive to do so though, and is weak as hell. However, one interesting thing to note is that ToB prcs add their initiator lv to all your martial classes. For example, a crusader3/warblade1/swordsage1/shadow sun ninja10/master of nine5 has IL19 for crusader and IL18 for both warblade and swordsage.:D
Mojo_Rat 01-13-08, 03:55 AM	Ive found the martial study feat quite useful for fighters. The main reason being that fightrs cannot charge and do all their attacks. So Charging minotaur or Mountain hammer do a lot to help in a game where your moving around a Bit. Secondly The book does seem to suggest that prestige classes raise your initiator level so a figher 10 prestige class 10 should have an initiator level of 15.
navar100 01-13-08, 03:57 AM	While many low level maneuvers become oudated by higher level ones for the martial adept, there are still some good low level maneuvers that are always good such that a 1st level fighter spending on a feat on it would be worth it. Take the stereotypical complaint against fighters or many dedicated warriros, a poor will save. With Martial Study, a fighter can take Moment of Perfect Mind to make a Concentration check for a will save once per encounter. Concentration becomes a class skill so you can always max it. Use Counter Charge to foil the raging orc barbarian charging at you. Use Steely Strike to get +4 to hit, spend it on Power Attack, and get +8 damage. At 6th level get Foe Hammer or Mountain Hammer to go through DR. A few DR monsters might be faced startin this level, especially when the barbarian can Power Attack for lots. Disarming Strike gets you a free disarm attack after you hit for great synergy with Improved Disarm. Wall of Blades lets you roll your attack for AC as a counter. Works great when you charged or used Steely Strike, or whatever.
aelryinth 01-14-08, 01:33 PM	Not quite, since stances count as maneuvers known, and unlike martial study, there is no limit on how many times martial stance can be taken. Strike of righteous vitality can be obtained by taking 2 devoted defender maneuvers, 1 stance, and taking martial study a 3rd time. Inferno blast is possible (2 martial study, 3 martial stance, 3rd martial study for inferno blast). It is extremely expensive to do so though, and is weak as hell. However, one interesting thing to note is that ToB prcs add their initiator lv to all your martial classes. For example, a crusader3/warblade1/swordsage1/shadow sun ninja10/master of nine5 has IL19 for crusader and IL18 for both warblade and swordsage.:D This is not the case. You have to pick a class and the initiator level rises for that class. It is the same class the refresh mechanism for your new manuvers is associated with. Thus, if you want to use the Crusader mechanic, your levels in the PrC are associated with Crusader, etc. Note that it is possible to associate level 1 of PrC X with Crusader, level 2 with Warblade, etc...but no, it doesn't raise IL of all your classes anymore then a spellcaster PrC does for spellcasters, unless it specifically says so (as the dual-caster classes explicitly point out). ===Aelryinth
Suspect_Unusual 01-14-08, 08:59 PM	high level manuvers still have initiator level requirements that would need to be met. So your 1st lvl human fighter can't blow all 3 feats for this and qualify for a lvl 3 or 4 manuver. Based on my reading, though, he could take a first lvl manuver or two and a first lvl stance and enhance his combat flexibilty a bit. Actually, I don't see how a 1st level character, with only 1/2 an initiator level (and they round down), would qualify for any of the 1st level maneuvers.
StruckingFuggle 01-15-08, 01:52 AM	Initiator levels from different classes are kept seperate. A Crusader1/Warblade17 would have an initiator level of 9 for her Crusader maneuvers/stances, and an initiator level of 17 for her Warblade maneuvers/stances. However, Martial Study would allow a 17th level Warblade to learn Strike Of Righteous Vitality as if it were a Warblade maneuver. That was my point, yes. :) I did preface it with "If I'm reading it right", but MS for initiators pretty much functionally has to use your initiator level for the class learning the maneuver even if it's not a normal school of that maneuver, no? The only thing stoping a pure Warblade from picking up high level Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, and Devoted Spirit maneuvers is prerequisites. Martial Study can only be taken three times, so anything that requires more than two maneuvers as prerequisites is right out. Pure Warblade, yes. Hence the point of the single Crusader level - to use your initial maneuvers to pick up a few low-level devoted spirit maneuvers (heck, you could do it at Level 15 or 16 and pick some higher-level maneuvers!) and thus satisfy the prerequisites for SoRV when you get the feat. "Oh hey, I know three or four DS maneuvers from my Crusader level! Gimmie Heal as a Warblade strike!" :D
Droma 01-15-08, 02:01 AM	Actually, I don't see how a 1st level character, with only 1/2 an initiator level (and they round down), would qualify for any of the 1st level maneuvers. Thats the way it reads. You need at least lvl2 if your not a martial adept to pick up the Martial study feat.
InkBlot 01-15-08, 02:08 AM	Initiator levels from different classes are kept seperate. A Crusader1/Warblade17 would have an initiator level of 9 for her Crusader maneuvers/stances, and an initiator level of 17 for her Warblade maneuvers/stances. However, Martial Study would allow a 17th level Warblade to learn Strike Of Righteous Vitality as if it were a Warblade maneuver. That was my point, yes. :) I did preface it with "If I'm reading it right", but MS for initiators pretty much functionally has to use your initiator level for the class learning the maneuver even if it's not a normal school of that maneuver, no? The only thing stoping a pure Warblade from picking up high level Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, and Devoted Spirit maneuvers is prerequisites. Martial Study can only be taken three times, so anything that requires more than two maneuvers as prerequisites is right out. Pure Warblade, yes. Hence the point of the single Crusader level - to use your initial maneuvers to pick up a few low-level devoted spirit maneuvers (heck, you could do it at Level 15 or 16 and pick some higher-level maneuvers!) and thus satisfy the prerequisites for SoRV when you get the feat. "Oh hey, I know three or four DS maneuvers from my Crusader level! Gimmie Heal as a Warblade strike!" :D That's all correct (oll korrekt). I was only providing more information for clarification, for readers of this thread besides you and I. Turns out I forgot to consider stances anyway. It's a good thing that was pointed out too. I used the case of the pure Warblade to highlight for other readers why your inclusion of one Crusader level was important. A lot of people on internet forums automatically assume an adversarial tone. But I've fallen out of that habit of compulsively countering other people's arguments. Now I'm in the habit of posting to support other people's arguments, by providing more facts or a second opinion. I only regret that I've not yet fallen into the habit of making sure it's known that I'm not being adversarial to the person I'm responding too.
StruckingFuggle 01-15-08, 03:02 AM	... that is such a novel position, and I think my reply to that sort of explains the reply you're quoting. :)
Glowwrym 01-22-08, 04:47 PM	RAW, on pg 39 says "Prestige classes work a little different. In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine you initiator level." In which cases do prestige class add full level? only martial prestige or what is the exception? Previously in the chapter it says add 1/2 level for all other non martial classes. Is there an errata or FAQ that clarify the IL on this build: Crusader 4/ Paladin 4/ Pious Templar 2 is it IL 7(4 c + 2 p +1 pt) or is it IL 8 (4 c + 2 p +2 pt)?
kalstrand 01-22-08, 06:02 PM	The prestige classes that add full initiator specificallly say so in their description. It just happens that all the PrCs in the TOB do so.
Kapalen 01-22-08, 06:12 PM	This gives me the idea to houserule that fighters get full initiator level, and maybe even allow them to take martial study 5 times or something.
navar100 01-22-08, 06:55 PM	Pure Warblade, yes. Hence the point of the single Crusader level - to use your initial maneuvers to pick up a few low-level devoted spirit maneuvers (heck, you could do it at Level 15 or 16 and pick some higher-level maneuvers!) and thus satisfy the prerequisites for SoRV when you get the feat. "Oh hey, I know three or four DS maneuvers from my Crusader level! Gimmie Heal as a Warblade strike!" :D I'm doing the reverse. I'm playing a crusader to level 17. At level 18, I multiclass in warblade, get all Iron Heart maneuvers and the stance (hello Lightning Recovery and Iron Heart Surge), and take Martial Study feat to learn Strike of Perfect Clarity as a crusader maneuver. I'll probably stay with warblade for levels 19 and 20. It's worth it not getting a 2nd smite per day (w00t :rolleyes: ) and Steely Resolve 25 is plenty for not getting Steely Resolve 30.
Suspect_Unusual 01-22-08, 07:11 PM	I'm doing the reverse. I'm playing a crusader to level 17. At level 18, I multiclass in warblade, get all Iron Heart maneuvers and stances (hello Lightning Recovery and Iron Heart Aura), and take Martial Study feat to learn Strike of Perfect Clarity as a crusader maneuver. I'll probably stay with warbalde for levels 19 and 20. It's worth it not getting a 2nd smite per day (w00t :rolleyes: ) and Steely Resolve 25 is plenty for not getting Steely Resolve 30. One lovely reason to take Warblade a little earlier would be to have the option of (after takin 2 levels of warblade) getting Immortal Fortitude as one of the stances you get from a natural progression.
CryoSilver 01-22-08, 07:18 PM	This gives me the idea to houserule that fighters get full initiator level, and maybe even allow them to take martial study 5 times or something. Why wouldn't you just play as a warblade at that point? Not to sound snarky or anything, but if you're using half your bonus feats to get maneuvers, you might as well just go full warblade, because you lose fairly little, especially as warblade gets a few (limited) bonus feats anyways.
navar100 01-23-08, 04:13 AM	One lovely reason to take Warblade a little earlier would be to have the option of (after takin 2 levels of warblade) getting Immortal Fortitude as one of the stances you get from a natural progression. I've thought of it, but I also want White Raven Hammer as soon as possible. I'm willing to spend the feat for the stance, even though technically I don't like having to do so for the sake of the terrible stance progression. Anyway, I'd be getting it at 16th level as a 14/2 crusader/warblade where as I get it at 15th level spending the feat as a 15 crusader. It really was a tough choice, tasting the balance of indecision, but my inclination of not multiclassing in general won out because I really, really like crusader. However, multiclassing at 18th level into warblade is just so juicy.