Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pentar 07-17-07, 12:23 PM	Hey everyone, I know the feat Extra Spell has been discussed to death. It was ruled by Customer Service that it would only grant you an additional spell from your current spell list. Thus it is a feat that's really only useful to casters like Bards and Sorcerers whom have a limited spell selection, even though they have a large list of potential spells. I'm asking if this general limitation of only being able to learn "extra" spells from a spell-list applies to the Expanded Spellbook class ability of the Master Specialist. This ability allows the specialist to add one additional spell of their school to their spells known... I'm thinking this would let a Master Specialist pick a spell from their school, even if it's not on their spell list (like on the Druid spell list, for example). My reasoning is such: - Master Specialist is a PrC that can only be taken by Specialist Wizards. Wizards have no limitation to the number of spells they can learn (aside from the size of their spell book and the amount of books they can carry with them! :)). As such, the limitations applied to Extra Spell feat should not apply, since it is universally regarded that the Extra Spell feat is pretty much useless for a Wizard. - The class feature does not state it has to be a spell from their spell list. - If it has to be a spell from their spell list, it seems like sort of a useless ability, since a Wizard can just buy a scroll to learn the spell anyway... this ability sounds like it is meant to allow a Master Specialist the ability to learn a spell outside of their normal spell-list, but within the same school. Does this sound right?
Puca 07-17-07, 12:34 PM	The way I figure it, learning spells from another class list is such a big deal that if they meant it to work that way, theyd say so. Compare the wording of the Master Specialists Expanded Spellbook to that of the similar feature for the Unseen Seer, which specifically mentions other class-lists. Unless it specifically says you can go off your class-list, I have to assume that you cannot.
tarkin 07-17-07, 12:51 PM	The major problem with learning a spell that is not on your list is what level you learn it at. No, you can't simply use whatever level other people know it as. Doing that causes two problems: 1. When it is known by multiple other classes at different levels. Which one do you pick? The lower one is what you want, but sometimes that is just abusive, particularly with a restricted list class such as Bard or Duskblade The classic example is Otto's Irresitable Dance. 8th level Wizard spell, 6th level Bard spell. But Bards are a resticted class with no 7th,8th,or 9th level spells. Instead they get 6th level spells when most people get 9th level spells. So some of their 6th level spells are as powerfull as 8th level spells. 2. When it is known only by a restricted class, such as Bard or Duskblade. Say we have a spell that is only on the 6th level bard list. Wizards can not EVER cast it. So it should be HARDER to get than a Otto's irresitable dance, not easier. ------- Net net: Any effect that does expressly say "You can take spells on another list" should not allow that. If it DOES let you take spells from another list, it should expressly say WHICH other spell lists you can take it from. Taking from Bard, Duskblade, etc. should be much harder than taking from Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Sorceror/etc. -------------- Wizards can not always buy a scroll to learn a spell Specifically, when you make a spell yourself, you don't have to make scrolls of it. There are LOTS of people who make good spells and then decide "Hey, I don't want anyone else to cast this spell", so they don't make scrolls or tell anyone else. The Master Specialist can learn even those spells. But more importantly, this is not supposed to be a HUGE bonus. It is instead a simple boost from 2 free spells/level to 3.
Pentar 07-17-07, 01:42 PM	Hmm ok - fair enough. I'll check with my DM and see what he says; he stated I could learn from any spell-list so long as it is in the same school, but he could just be house-ruling it. Meanwhile, I see your point Tarkin, re: learning spells of different levels. I was actually considering Arc Lightning as a spell to learn using Expanded Spell List - but as a 4th level Druid spell instead of the 5th level Wizard/Sorcerer one :) Another reason I extrapolated on being allowed to learn spells outside of my spell-list is because of the Warmage, who has a very similar class ability, but I think that specifically indicates that the spell has to come from the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list.
risner 07-17-07, 01:59 PM	I'm asking if this general limitation of only being able to learn "extra" spells from a spell-list applies to the Expanded Spellbook class ability of the Master Specialist. Absolutely, for the same reason it applies to Extra Spell. Unless they use the very familiar line "from any spell list", any ability that gives you additional spells must come from your class spell list.
Shadowed1 07-17-07, 06:36 PM	Expanded Spellbook can only be taken from your class list, I have CS answer to this from a couple months back I'll see if I can dig up.
Shadowed1 07-18-07, 01:38 AM	Here it is....... Subject Expanded Spellbook Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 06/10/2007 03:13 PM XXXXXXX, Thank you for writing. The spellcaster can only choose to add a spell available on the Wizard spell list. Please let me know if you need anymore help! Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Rob Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (XXXXXX XXXXX) 06/10/2007 05:52 AM Can the Expanded Spellbook class feature be used to gain spells that are not on the wizard/Sor list if they are still of the Wiz/Specialist chosen school. Example: Decoy Image is a 3rd level Ranger spell of the illusion(figment)school.(Spell Comp pg:61) Could a Master Specialist-(Illusionist) use Expanded Spellbook to obtain this spell as it is from his chosen school though not on the Wiz/Sor spell list? ******************** Page Number: page:70 Book Name: Complete Mage