Master Spellthief Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Master Spellthief Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mostholy2
07-06-07, 01:08 PM I am noticing that there is a general sense that Master Spellthief feat from CScoundrel is a really excellent feat. Looking at the Character Optimization boards, there are a number of threads that use this feat to allow for a 1 lvl dip into SpTh and retain almost full casting while allowing for full 9th lvl spell stealing. From the feat description it says:

1) Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes...for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal.
2)Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells....
3) In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor.

That does seem quite good upon first glance. However, the feat description does not state that: 1) your arcane spellcaster lvls/spellthief levels stack for purposes of how many level of spells a spellthief can possess. Nor does it say that 2) the spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels stack when determining spell progression.

On a strict interpretation of the feat, the ability to steal higher level spells is much more limited if you don't take extra SpTh levels to increase the spell levels you can possess. You could therefore still "steal" but not "possess" higher lvl spells. And anything greater than a SpTh1 dip would result in a pretty severe loss (IMO) of spell progression for your arcane spellcaster lvls.

I'm wondering if someone could explain the awesomeness of the feat.
Jackmojo
07-06-07, 02:14 PM Being able to take spells from an opponent even if you can't cast them is a handy bonus debuff on top of say a Scorching Ray.

So for a one level dip and one feat you get everything you listed plus a fair number of skill point and minor Sneak attack damage (enough to get you started on several of the the rogue/mage PrC). I've certainly seen worse options.

Jack
mostholy2
07-06-07, 02:43 PM I'm not saying that its a worthless feat. Even with the limitation of not being able to possess the spells that you steal, you do get to strip the ability to cast the spell away from your target + you get to use light armor without ASF + no loss in caster level. I just don't know if it is as powerful as what some people think it is.
Lotus Crane
07-06-07, 04:28 PM Even if you ignore the spell stealing altogether, Master Spellthief is still worth it for the caster level benefits (it obsoletes Practiced Spellcaster in any multiclass build) and the armored casting.

It's particularly cheesy in Ultimate Magus builds, where instead of beguiler or sorcerer 2/wizard 3, you go beguiler or sorcerer 1/wizard 3/spellthief 1. Thanks to the way things are worded, you get to advance your wizard spellcasting for all 10 levels (instead of being forced to alternate to beguiler or sorcerer at 1st, 4th, and 7th levels), meaning you still end up with 9th level wizard spells by 19th level. Also, because you determine your arcane caster level by adding up all arcane spellcasting class levels (before adding any other benefits), an Ultimate Magus ends up with a caster level of 19 at 15th character level.

Incidentally, a hexblade 10/spellthief 10 with Master Spellthief will have a caster level of 20 for hexblade and spellthief spells, which is the equivalent of taking Practiced Spellcaster 7.5 times.
Scion of Coldshard
07-06-07, 05:42 PM I am running a modified version using psionics as a base instead and it is a lot of fun!
mostholy2
07-06-07, 07:23 PM I guess because I'm not familiar with Ultimate Magus, that I don't quite understand the cheesiness of Master Spell thief. Any enlightments on that front?
Lotus Crane
07-06-07, 08:33 PM I guess because I'm not familiar with Ultimate Magus, that I don't quite understand the cheesiness of Master Spell thief. Any enlightments on that front?
Well then, the other example I used. Hexblades and spellthieves usually have a caster level equal to half their class level, so for example, a hexblade 10/spellthief 10 would normally have a caster level of 5 for hexblade spells and spellthief spells. Master Spellthief says that your caster level for all arcane spells is equal to the number of your arcane spellcasting class levels, so suddenly you gain +15 to both sides of that build, and suddenly have a caster level of 20.

Hmm, the potential to gain +15 caster levels in two classes... 7.5 times better than Practiced Spellcaster, anybody?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mostholy2 07-06-07, 01:08 PM	I am noticing that there is a general sense that Master Spellthief feat from CScoundrel is a really excellent feat. Looking at the Character Optimization boards, there are a number of threads that use this feat to allow for a 1 lvl dip into SpTh and retain almost full casting while allowing for full 9th lvl spell stealing. From the feat description it says: 1) Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes...for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. 2)Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells.... 3) In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. That does seem quite good upon first glance. However, the feat description does not state that: 1) your arcane spellcaster lvls/spellthief levels stack for purposes of how many level of spells a spellthief can possess. Nor does it say that 2) the spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels stack when determining spell progression. On a strict interpretation of the feat, the ability to steal higher level spells is much more limited if you don't take extra SpTh levels to increase the spell levels you can possess. You could therefore still "steal" but not "possess" higher lvl spells. And anything greater than a SpTh1 dip would result in a pretty severe loss (IMO) of spell progression for your arcane spellcaster lvls. I'm wondering if someone could explain the awesomeness of the feat.
Jackmojo 07-06-07, 02:14 PM	Being able to take spells from an opponent even if you can't cast them is a handy bonus debuff on top of say a Scorching Ray. So for a one level dip and one feat you get everything you listed plus a fair number of skill point and minor Sneak attack damage (enough to get you started on several of the the rogue/mage PrC). I've certainly seen worse options. Jack
mostholy2 07-06-07, 02:43 PM	I'm not saying that its a worthless feat. Even with the limitation of not being able to possess the spells that you steal, you do get to strip the ability to cast the spell away from your target + you get to use light armor without ASF + no loss in caster level. I just don't know if it is as powerful as what some people think it is.
Lotus Crane 07-06-07, 04:28 PM	Even if you ignore the spell stealing altogether, Master Spellthief is still worth it for the caster level benefits (it obsoletes Practiced Spellcaster in any multiclass build) and the armored casting. It's particularly cheesy in Ultimate Magus builds, where instead of beguiler or sorcerer 2/wizard 3, you go beguiler or sorcerer 1/wizard 3/spellthief 1. Thanks to the way things are worded, you get to advance your wizard spellcasting for all 10 levels (instead of being forced to alternate to beguiler or sorcerer at 1st, 4th, and 7th levels), meaning you still end up with 9th level wizard spells by 19th level. Also, because you determine your arcane caster level by adding up all arcane spellcasting class levels (before adding any other benefits), an Ultimate Magus ends up with a caster level of 19 at 15th character level. Incidentally, a hexblade 10/spellthief 10 with Master Spellthief will have a caster level of 20 for hexblade and spellthief spells, which is the equivalent of taking Practiced Spellcaster 7.5 times.
Scion of Coldshard 07-06-07, 05:42 PM	I am running a modified version using psionics as a base instead and it is a lot of fun!
mostholy2 07-06-07, 07:23 PM	I guess because I'm not familiar with Ultimate Magus, that I don't quite understand the cheesiness of Master Spell thief. Any enlightments on that front?
Lotus Crane 07-06-07, 08:33 PM	I guess because I'm not familiar with Ultimate Magus, that I don't quite understand the cheesiness of Master Spell thief. Any enlightments on that front? Well then, the other example I used. Hexblades and spellthieves usually have a caster level equal to half their class level, so for example, a hexblade 10/spellthief 10 would normally have a caster level of 5 for hexblade spells and spellthief spells. Master Spellthief says that your caster level for all arcane spells is equal to the number of your arcane spellcasting class levels, so suddenly you gain +15 to both sides of that build, and suddenly have a caster level of 20. Hmm, the potential to gain +15 caster levels in two classes... 7.5 times better than Practiced Spellcaster, anybody?