Masterful Sneak Attack (Uncanny Dodge Defeater) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Masterful Sneak Attack (Uncanny Dodge Defeater) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Master_Vega
12-08-07, 04:18 PM There was a DM on the "What's a DM to Do?" boards who was ticked off that his rogue could not, by the rules, sneak attack a rogue with Uncanny Dodge I/II. I don't remember the exact circumstances -I think the game was gestalt, but I'm not sure-, but this thread about railroading or player killing. :P This is about a feat that will enable assassin characters (not just the class) to sneak attack opponents that ordinarily would be invulnerable to such an attack.

Masterful Sneak Attack
Prerequisites: Uncanny Dodge, Stealthy, Weapon Focus, BAB 11, Sneak Attack +5d6.
Benefit: After studying a target with Uncanny Dodge I or II for one round, you may sneak attack him with your focused weapon as though he did not have either ability.

I decided to make the requirements pretty steep, as you really should feel safe if you get Uncanny Dodge and Uncanny Dodge II. This is an "I just got the idea" draft, so if it sucks, that's not too big a problem for me. Critique, tear apart, have fun, don't flame. :P

Thanks!
KIDS
12-08-07, 08:25 PM Well, entirely depends on whether you feel that a high level rogue/barbarian deserves not to be sneak attacked but generally a good job. I've faced same problem as piercing such a defense when playing a Ninja (even worse than when playing a Rogue!) but hopefully, in the end Feint still denied them their DEX and they could do nothing about it. MWHAHAHAAH!
elonin
12-08-07, 09:55 PM All the DM's rogue would need to do to get sneak attack is flank a rogue without improved uncanny dodge or flank a rogue with improved uncanny dodge and be four levels higher. Other gimmicks that should work are the telling blow (gives sneak attack dmg whenever a crit is confirmed). The acrobatic backstab skill trick would also help once per encounter.
StevenO
12-08-07, 11:21 PM With that feat you do need to do a better job describing what you mean by "study" your opponent. Is it three uninterupted rounds like an assassin's death strike or something relatively meaningless like a swift or move action? A second question is how long is each "study" good for: one attack, round, encounter, one day, or is it permanent?

It merits repeating. The standard ways around IUD are fienting, flanking as a higher level attacker, or doing something else to stun or otherwise render the target helpless in some sneak attackable form.

To me the concept of a Practiced Sneak Attacker based on the idea of Practiced Spellcaster is that your SA is treated as if delivered by an appropriate character four levels higher (but without the normal damage increased) although it would need a little more than that. I'd probably test a feinting bonus in addition to the level bonus.
MnemonicSV
12-09-07, 02:34 AM I know it should go without saying, but shouldn't Sneak Attack itself be a listed prerequisite for this feat? I suggest +5d6 minimum.
Master_Vega
12-09-07, 11:56 AM This is why I told you to tear it apart. I posted it five minutes after I got the idea, and there were several obvious things I meant to put there (such as study for one round, and Sneak Attack as a prereq), that I missed.

Thanks for pointing that out.
blacksheepcannibal
12-09-07, 06:38 PM Uncanny Dodge does not prevent sneak attacks. It prevents loss of dex bonus to armor class if caught flat footed or struck by an invisible attacker. This does not mean that a Rogue with Uncanny cannot be sneak-attacked - it is, however, a little more difficult to do so.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master_Vega 12-08-07, 04:18 PM	There was a DM on the "What's a DM to Do?" boards who was ticked off that his rogue could not, by the rules, sneak attack a rogue with Uncanny Dodge I/II. I don't remember the exact circumstances -I think the game was gestalt, but I'm not sure-, but this thread about railroading or player killing. :P This is about a feat that will enable assassin characters (not just the class) to sneak attack opponents that ordinarily would be invulnerable to such an attack. Masterful Sneak Attack Prerequisites: Uncanny Dodge, Stealthy, Weapon Focus, BAB 11, Sneak Attack +5d6. Benefit: After studying a target with Uncanny Dodge I or II for one round, you may sneak attack him with your focused weapon as though he did not have either ability. I decided to make the requirements pretty steep, as you really should feel safe if you get Uncanny Dodge and Uncanny Dodge II. This is an "I just got the idea" draft, so if it sucks, that's not too big a problem for me. Critique, tear apart, have fun, don't flame. :P Thanks!
KIDS 12-08-07, 08:25 PM	Well, entirely depends on whether you feel that a high level rogue/barbarian deserves not to be sneak attacked but generally a good job. I've faced same problem as piercing such a defense when playing a Ninja (even worse than when playing a Rogue!) but hopefully, in the end Feint still denied them their DEX and they could do nothing about it. MWHAHAHAAH!
elonin 12-08-07, 09:55 PM	All the DM's rogue would need to do to get sneak attack is flank a rogue without improved uncanny dodge or flank a rogue with improved uncanny dodge and be four levels higher. Other gimmicks that should work are the telling blow (gives sneak attack dmg whenever a crit is confirmed). The acrobatic backstab skill trick would also help once per encounter.
StevenO 12-08-07, 11:21 PM	With that feat you do need to do a better job describing what you mean by "study" your opponent. Is it three uninterupted rounds like an assassin's death strike or something relatively meaningless like a swift or move action? A second question is how long is each "study" good for: one attack, round, encounter, one day, or is it permanent? It merits repeating. The standard ways around IUD are fienting, flanking as a higher level attacker, or doing something else to stun or otherwise render the target helpless in some sneak attackable form. To me the concept of a Practiced Sneak Attacker based on the idea of Practiced Spellcaster is that your SA is treated as if delivered by an appropriate character four levels higher (but without the normal damage increased) although it would need a little more than that. I'd probably test a feinting bonus in addition to the level bonus.
MnemonicSV 12-09-07, 02:34 AM	I know it should go without saying, but shouldn't Sneak Attack itself be a listed prerequisite for this feat? I suggest +5d6 minimum.
Master_Vega 12-09-07, 11:56 AM	This is why I told you to tear it apart. I posted it five minutes after I got the idea, and there were several obvious things I meant to put there (such as study for one round, and Sneak Attack as a prereq), that I missed. Thanks for pointing that out.
blacksheepcannibal 12-09-07, 06:38 PM	Uncanny Dodge does not prevent sneak attacks. It prevents loss of dex bonus to armor class if caught flat footed or struck by an invisible attacker. This does not mean that a Rogue with Uncanny cannot be sneak-attacked - it is, however, a little more difficult to do so.