Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ssj4sg 06-09-07, 02:37 PM	I'm sure this has been asked since the PHB2 came out, but we have a small debate in our group. I asked at the D&D "Ask Wizards", but they didn't respond. Our fighter is going all daggers (his choice, mainly stylistic) and wants to take both of the Weapon Mastery feats. His impression, and mine for a while, was that as the dagger is treated as both a ranged and melee weapon, it would gain the bonuses from both feats (if both feats were configured to either piercing, slashing, or a combination thereof). The question is: Do both bonuses apply when throwing the dagger? What about in melee? I know this sounds like a common sense thing, "One says melee, the other says ranged! Duh!"The problem is really that they both apply a bonus to all weapons of that type (p/s/b). He will meet the prereqs for both, and the dagger, while versatile, is a simple, low damage weapon. I'm still kinda torn on the issue as they are both unnamed bonuses like Spec., and I'm not too sure this is what is intended by the feat. It also sounds suspiciously like a CO boards kinda trick, but I can't find a RAW flaw in it. Anyone know of a SPECIFIC ruling/errata on this??? We're considering a house ruling, but we'd rather have a concrete rule if possible.
Salla 06-09-07, 02:43 PM	If you're stabbing/slashing with the dagger, it's a melee weapon. If you're throwing it, it's a ranged weapon. You only get to use the appropriate mastery for the way you're using it.
Kalarus 06-09-07, 03:02 PM	Well it really is a common sense thing ;) The type of mastery you choose represents training in the way of using the weapon that way. Ranged weapon mastery is training in using a weapon at range. Melee weapon mastery is training in using a weapon in melee. One by definition excludes the other. If the dagger idea is so confusing for you, try using the longbow as a similar example. The longbow is obviously a ranged weapon, so you could get Ranged Weapon Mastery for it. However, the bow can also be used as an improvised weapon, functioning much like a quarterstaff. It seems very silly to apply Ranged Weapon Mastery bonuses to a longbow being wielded as an improvised quarterstaff. Basically a weapon is never a ranged and melee weapon at the same time. Some weapons merely have the quality to be used as either as a ranged weapon, or as a melee weapon. Unless you can somehow work out how "ranged melee" should work, the bonuses really do not stack.
Part-Human2 06-09-07, 04:33 PM	And this was answered in the Main Rules FAQ. Does a spear count as a melee weapon or a ranged weapon for the purpose of qualifying for the Weapon Mastery feats (Player’s Handbook II, 81–82)? Both, actually, although you can gain the benefit of only one feat or the other at any one time, and only when using the weapon in the appropriate manner. For example, if you have Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing), you’d apply the feat’s benefit only when using the spear in melee, not when throwing it.
ssj4sg 06-09-07, 06:03 PM	Thank you Part-Human2, I appreciate your help finding the rule and your incredible ability to read the english language, as opposed to the other posters. ;) All i asked was if there was a rule, not opinions. When i ask for opinions, i'm sure i'll ask you other guys first.
Lucas Blackstone 06-09-07, 06:49 PM	Your snide comment afterwords about the english language isn't really appropriate. They told you the way it works by the rules. If you didn't understand that they were using a rule to tell you the answer, that's more of an issue on your end rather then theirs, don't you think?
risner 06-09-07, 08:33 PM	You can only gain the bonus from MWM when using the Dagger as a melee weapon (making a melee attack.) You can only gain the bonus from RWM when using the Dagger as a ranged weapon (making a ranged attack.) You could never gain the bonus from both on one attack (since an attack is either melee or ranged and never both.) If it were both, which stat would you use to attack? STR or DEX? You could interchange them between attacks: +11 BAB = three attacks 1st attack melee adding MWM 2nd attack ranged (throwing one) adding RWM 3rd attack melee adding MWM from a quickdrawn Dagger. Oh, and I agree, that every single post in this thread except for the OP was a posting of the rules and a rejection of the notion of being able to gain both bonuses when clearly the rules would not allow for that to happen. I only found one "opinion" in this thread, and that was the OP's opinion.
Kalarus 06-09-07, 08:38 PM	Thank you Part-Human2, I appreciate your help finding the rule and your incredible ability to read the english language, as opposed to the other posters. ;) All i asked was if there was a rule, not opinions. When i ask for opinions, i'm sure i'll ask you other guys first. You're not really encouraging people to help you in the future by comments like that. The FAQ does not actually state rules, it simply clarifies rules, much like Salla and I did. Only the original source books and their published errata actually constitutes rules. Since your question originated from your own inability to properly understand the rules, rather than a problem with the rules, there was no official source to quote other than the published source, which we attempted to help explain. Next time I'm sure we won't bother. Have a good day.
ssj4sg 06-10-07, 02:33 AM	Sorry if i ****** you guys off. i asked for a simple answer. no hard feelings i hope, my bad.