merging of skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

merging of skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Exner
03-13-07, 04:29 PM the topic sort of sprung up in a unrelated tread...

this thread is meant to create rational debate. if you dont agree with something, state why rather than just saying no.

what do you think skills/groups like:

move silently and hide
disable device and open locks
diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff
spot and listen
balance, climb, jump, and tumble

should be merged/condensed into a single skill group?

e.g., move silently and hide = stealth

My thoughts: the merging of skills would simplify the rules and give specific skills more use. For example, steath rolls would require only 1 roll vs 1 roll rather then 2 rolls vs 2 rolls. Furthermore, the skill points invested would mean more rather than only be limited to 1 specific action. It was done in 3.0 to 3.5 for many skills and I think it was a great idea back then.
DarkRhystar
03-13-07, 08:15 PM Bad idea.

Helps classes with large skill lists much more than classes with small ones (all of a sudden a Rogue knows almost every class skill he has).

Directly interferes with effects which boost a single skill. A good example is Invisibility which only affects Hide (why should it affect Move Silently?). For Invisibility to affect both Hide and Move Silently would make it far far better. In fact, any effect which boosts a single skill that folds into one becomes much more powerful.

Makes skill tricks and anything skill dependent easier to qualify for since you have more skill points to purchase them (direct result of spending fewer points for other things).
ClementWillowbreaker
03-13-07, 08:20 PM You would have to rebalance skill points per level for every class, every single feat that has a X Ranks prerequisite or requires a skill check, and countless [every category of everything in DnD] that grants a bonus to skills. With that level of revision, you might as well write your own from scratch, or play a system that has already done it. Besides World of Darkness, I don't know any off the top of my head (and WoD is soo not the thing you want when you posting on a DnD board).
Exner
03-13-07, 08:38 PM from what i understand, not that i have played it, iron heroes has skill groups (and isnt that d20?). also modern d20 merge some things into skill groups (specifically hide/ms). those systems seem to work fine.

of course, as is, you can't merge into skill groups without adjusting class #skills per level. changing the other stuff is pretty easy and hardly needs a complete revision of the rules (mr. chicken-little :P ). in fact, not many classes would need revision skill wise since most of the merging skills fall are rogue related.

most characters will take certain skills in groups anyway (how many rogues take ms without hide or an acrobat that takes jump without tumble?) so why not merge them for simplicity. d20 is a great system but sometimes it gets bogged down by the shear number and complexity of the rules. it would speed up the game by keeping the number of rolls down (1 acrobatics score rather then 4 different scores).
DarkRhystar
03-14-07, 01:03 AM it would speed up the game by keeping the number of rolls down (1 acrobatics score rather then 4 different scores).

How much would it speed up the game? You roll a d20 and add the modifier on your character sheet, and see if it beats a DC.

Making Hide and Move Silently checks and checking against a DC takes all of 10 seconds.

Is cutting that down to 5 seconds really worth re-balancing every class's skill list and skill point allocation as well as every item, spell, or ability that gives a bonus to skills merged?

Before you go off doing all of that, ask yourself if there are other simpler ways you could shave time off making rolls. Chances are, there probably are ways to save time in your group that involve much less work that'll give the same or better results.
Exner
03-14-07, 01:20 AM i am not looking to reinvent anything. i am just duscussing my thoughts on the subject for future prosperty :D

i subscribe to the K.I.S.S method (keep it simple stupid) and collapsing some skills into groups is a lot more simple.

for example, most character who use stealth usually have the same (or close to it) number of ranks in move silently/hide. so why not combine them into 1 score? it would cut roll/mental math time by half. i would also cut down on creation time and opportunities for error. 2 rolls also makes it harder for the person actually trying to stealth -- ala 2 chances to fail for potentially 1 desired action.

just some thoughts.
Xeviat-DM
03-14-07, 02:23 AM I merge spot and listen into Notice, move silently and hide into Stealth, and disable device and open lock into Disable Device. I would not merge any others, though, for my own reasons. These skills were merged in Mutants and Masterminds, and it just makes things easier on me (for instance, Notice skill can be used for senses other than spot and listen, when situations like creatures with SCent come up)).
RainerNader
03-14-07, 03:52 AM My group merges Hide and Move Silently into a skill called "Sneak." If you have Hide or Move Silently as a class skill, you now have Sneak as a class skill. The only balance issue is that you only need to max out one skill instead of two to be good at sneaking, but extra skill points are hardly game-breaking.
Neodymium
03-14-07, 04:45 AM My group uses Stealth (Hide and Move Silently), and Perception (Spot and Listen). We haven't really encountered any problems or balance issues at all.
Depending on the situation, players might be called on to roll separate Perception checks for hearing and seeing specifics, or just one that encompasses the taking in of everything around(including smell, which is oft-forgotten due to lack of actual in-game mechanics other than Scent and Stench).
Stealth is similarly used. Often it's just one roll, but when serious sneaking situations are at hand, separate rolls can be used. For the sake of excitement!

I'd be hesitant to merge any skills that have different ability modifiers.
Zumarai
03-14-07, 07:33 AM Apparently d20 Star Wars Saga will be folding some Skills – probably a testing of the waters for 4th edition.

I am already going to implement this in my next campaign:

Acrobatics (Balance + Tumble)

Athletics (Climb + Jump)

Deception (Bluff + Disguise)

Mac Daddy (Diplomacy + Gather Information)

Perception (Listen + Spot)

Stealth (Move Silently + Hide)
Mithrus
03-14-07, 08:24 AM How much would it speed up the game? You roll a d20 and add the modifier on your character sheet, and see if it beats a DC.

Making Hide and Move Silently checks and checking against a DC takes all of 10 seconds.

Is cutting that down to 5 seconds really worth re-balancing every class's skill list and skill point allocation as well as every item, spell, or ability that gives a bonus to skills merged?
In the case of "stealth", each check is an opposed check, which means the DM at least has to calculate/roll the opposed skill for EACH opponent. Fairly often, thats 5+ opponents. It's also every round the person moves. Folding skills in this case would help a ton.

Acrobatics (Balance + Tumble)
Athletics (Climb + Jump)
Deception (Bluff + Disguise)
Mac Daddy (Diplomacy + Gather Information) WT?
Perception (Listen + Spot)
Stealth (Move Silently + Hide)
I like these (although Mac Daddy sounds SO silly, a new name is a must).

OT, I think the number of skill points across the board is too low, so in all honesty, making the minimum skill points 4 instead of 2 would go a long way. And yes, this is AFTER the skill folding.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-14-07, 03:19 PM I am covered in bells then cast invisibility. If you use Stealth, apparently I am more visible because of it. To be sensible, you would have to assign two-tiered DCs- one easy one to hear me, and one hard one to spot me.

Half the time in DnD, some condition or situation affects visibility or hearing, but not both. So you will be making so many exceptions you never get to take advantage of the simplified skills.
Exner
03-14-07, 03:42 PM I am covered in bells then cast invisibility. If you use Stealth, apparently I am more visible because of it. To be sensible, you would have to assign two-tiered DCs- one easy one to hear me, and one hard one to spot me.

Half the time in DnD, some condition or situation affects visibility or hearing, but not both. So you will be making so many exceptions you never get to take advantage of the simplified skills.

but how often does this happen? it is an unrealistic example. but even if this were to happen all it should do is give a circumstance penalty to your stealth check making it more likely someone will notice you through perception. the end result would be the same in both situations, the opposed roller will notice what square you are in (which would realistically make the invis. distortion more likely of being seen). ruleswise I would say that the spell would give you a bonus but the bells would penalize you.
paladin2019
03-14-07, 03:47 PM In answer to another question, Decipher's LotR RPG uses Stealth and Observation. Each skill also has specialties which will enhance the character's chances of one style vs his base.
Moccanime
03-14-07, 04:23 PM I did this with my D20 modern game. The biggest advantage was that my new players had an easier time playing it, now that there was fewer skills to look through.

Before combining skills:
New Player: "I want to try and sneak down into the alley"
Me: "Roll a move silently and hide check"
New Player: Looks through char sheet. Keeps on looking "ahh found it, now where is hide" five minutes later (or so it felt) "Ahh there it is" player rolls

Now:
New Player: "I want to try and sneak down into the alley"
Me: "Roll a stealth check"
New Palyer: quickly looks over the less than 10 skills on his char sheet "there it is" player rolls.
lint trap
03-14-07, 04:25 PM I think Disable Device and Open Locks are already merged in d20 Modern. As for the rest, it makes sense to me. If you're worried about balance getting thrown off, though, you could stipulate that for every "merged" skill a character takes, they have to take one "flavor" skill (Craft, Perform, Profession, etc.).
Zumarai
03-15-07, 07:30 AM I think Disable Device and Open Locks are already merged in d20 Modern.

Can tell me what the merged Skill is called and what ability score modifier it uses?

Disable Device (Int)
Open Locks (Dex)
Zumarai
03-15-07, 07:31 AM I like these (although Mac Daddy sounds SO silly, a new name is a must).

I was obviously joking.

Maybe call it Social?
Moccanime
03-15-07, 10:16 AM This is not exactly D&D but might be usefull anyway. This is the skill combos I currently use in my D20 Modern game.

Agility (Balance + Tumble + Escape Artist)
Assess (Sense Motive + Gamble)
Athletics (Climb + Jump + Swim)
Computer Use
Concentration
Craft (as normal but Repair and Forgery is put under here as well)
Disable Device (Disable Device + Demolitions)
Handle Animal (Handle Animal + Ride)
Interaction (Diplomacy + Gather Information)
Intimidate
Knowledge (as normal but Research, Decipher Script and Navigate is put under here as well)
Linguistics (Speak Language + Read/Write Language)
Perception (Listen + Spot)
Perform
Pilot (Drive + Pilot)
Profession
Treat Injury
Search (as normal but Investigate is put under here as well)
Sleight of Hand
Stealth (Move Silently + Hide)
Subterfuge (Bluff + Disguise)
Survival
drunkendrake
03-15-07, 11:12 AM Think about perception/notice/whatever. doesn't work

Take an eagle. Spot +14, Listen +2.
What's its Perception? 14? 2? 8? 16?
Eagle is facing one way. Someone sneaks up behind. Either it has eyes in the back of its head, or things happen as per normal and birdy gets jumped.
Eagle is facing other way. Somone sneaks up in front. Either it is blind, or things work as normal and birdy is fine.
You can't get both situations to work as normal without having two skills, both Spot and Listen. You also need Move Silently and Hide, because they also can have very different ablities (why would a Tiny thing get a bonus to move silently?)
This does come up in games- I once made a werehawk, and the differences were very pronounced.

-Drake-
Zumarai
03-15-07, 11:14 AM d20 Star Wars Saga will be folding Bluff, Disguise and Forgery into one Skill called Deception among others.
drunkendrake
03-15-07, 11:23 AM <snip>
Athletics (Climb + Jump + Swim) so a deepesa diver is brilliant at mountaineering? even if he's never been a mile from the sea in his life?
Craft (as normal but Repair and Forgery is put under here as well) Making Swords makes you good at faking letters? I don't think so.
Handle Animal (Handle Animal + Ride)you can push a dog sp you can charge a warhorse?
Knowledge (as normal but Decipher Script is put under here as well)does that mean Decipher Script is a section of Knowledge or it's all one skill?
Linguistics (Speak Language + Read/Write Language)barbarians?
Perception (Listen + Spot)see above
Stealth (Move Silently + Hide) see above
Subterfuge (Bluff + Disguise) does Alter Self make you more eloquent?

My opinions. A bit too broad selections for my liking.

-Drake-
Neodymium
03-15-07, 03:26 PM Think about perception/notice/whatever. doesn't work

Take an eagle. Spot +14, Listen +2.
What's its Perception? 14? 2? 8? 16?

-Drake-

I'd say it has 4 ranks in Perception. +2 for 14 WIS.

It also has a racial bonus of +8 when making Perception checks involving sight.

There is a precedent here. Conditional modifiers to skills and saving throws...
like this quote you might recognize

"+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal; Dwarves are especially capable with stonework and metalwork."

easy as pie and no more complicated than the system already is.
kgauck
03-15-07, 03:56 PM Skills should be plentiful in areas of the game where there is a lot going on. If there is a lot of sneaking going on, Hide and Move Silently makes more sense for the reasons described above. If it happens rarely, it might be OK to combine them so that its cost effective for one party member to invest in something that happens rarely.

Likewise if something happens a lot, it makes sense to articulte additional skills. If a game involves a lot of debate, dicussion, bargaining, oratory, formal disputations, and rabble rousing, then it might make sense to have two kinds of Diplomacy, one for formal situations (say law court rooms, academic halls, or speeches in grand assemblies) and another for more mundane haggling (say buying goods, bribing guards, or hiring messengers).

If a skill gets used so often a player would be an idiot not to have it, you might consider splitting it in two. If a skill is so rarely used that no one ever wants to invest even a few ranks, just in case, some combination might be in order.
Xeviat-DM
03-15-07, 04:02 PM Mutants and Masterminds has a very interesting system for it's sensory skills. For the most part, there are 4 sense types: Visual (including normal sight, darkvision, low-light vision, and other super-senses), Auditory (normal hearing, blindsense and blindsight in sonar), Olfactory (normal smell and taste, scent), and Tactile (normal touch, blindsight (vibration), tremorsense); they also have Radio senses, Mental senses, and a "Special" category.

When you gain a sense (lets say you pick up a radar sense), you can pay more for it to make it accurate and/or acute. You can use an accurate sense to pinpoint something's exact location, meaning you can use an accurate sense to target something in combat. You can use an Acute sense to sense fine details about anything you can detect with a particular sense. For humans, visual senses are accurate and acute, and auditory senses are just acute.

So if something makes a noise, a human can figure out its general location with its acute hearing, but it can't pinpoint it well enough to target it. If something is visible, then humans can poinpoint it to target it.

My point is that circumstance modifiers aren't too hard to utilize, like in the hawk example above.
Moccanime
03-18-07, 10:09 AM Athletics (Climb + Jump + Swim) so a deepesa diver is brilliant at mountaineering? even if he's never been a mile from the sea in his life?
Craft (as normal but Repair and Forgery is put under here as well) Making Swords makes you good at faking letters? I don't think so.
Handle Animal (Handle Animal + Ride)you can push a dog sp you can charge a warhorse?
Knowledge (as normal but Decipher Script is put under here as well)does that mean Decipher Script is a section of Knowledge or it's all one skill?
Linguistics (Speak Language + Read/Write Language)barbarians?
Perception (Listen + Spot)see above
Stealth (Move Silently + Hide) see above
Subterfuge (Bluff + Disguise) does Alter Self make you more eloquent

My opinions. A bit too broad selections for my liking.

-Drake-

It would seem you missed two things, 1: this was made for d20 modern so of course I would not work with D&D without changing some of the skills. 2: the places where I wrote "as normal".

Athletics - This makes as much sense as a smart person being better at physical things than a strong person (IE more skill points)
Craft - the as normal part means that there is still all the normal subcategories of the skill. So being good at making swords makes you good at making fake swords as well, not letters.
Handle Animal - Ride has been put under handle animal because ride is rarely used in my d20 modern games and it make sense to me and my group.
Knowledge - In my D20 modern games so far, the things needed to be deciephered so far has been closly tied to knowledge as well, so my group kicked out Decipher Script and made a feat for apllying knowledge to Decipher check conserning the fields
Linguistics - This combination is solely D20 modern specific as D&D dosn't have two seperate skills for speaking and writing a language (IE this like normal speak language in D&D).
Perception - Combined this for two reasons. 1: for simplicity. 2: due to the fact that several PC races in my last couple of games has been reliyng on other sense than hearing and sight as theire primary senses and I didn't feel like making 3 new skills (touch, scent and taste) nor give said PC races any extraodianry abilities.
Stealth - Having combined Perception I combined this as well for simplicity.
Subterfuge - my D20 modern games dosn't have alter self soo... My players also usually have a harder time convincing someone that they are who they are trying to imitate (bluff) than actually looking like the person (disguise).

One thing I didn't mention in my last post was that I have scaled several of the checks' DC up. My game also have a feat that let one gain a bonus on specialised applications of a skill.

Like my post said, then this was also made for D20 modern not D&D, and there is quite a few differences between the two rulesets. One of the main being that just about any character has more feats than your average D&D fighter, so they can afford the specialization feat I mentioned above.
retillin
03-18-07, 12:57 PM Well if merging them makes sense to you and it works fine go for it.

However, for myself and my groups we need two rolls when sneaking for various reasons. If there is a battle and you are trying to sneak around someone they might get a negative penelty to their listen (from the sound of battle) but not their spot. So having the seperte for us just saves us the hassle of trying to fig out if or what new negative there should be in any situation.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Exner 03-13-07, 04:29 PM	the topic sort of sprung up in a unrelated tread... this thread is meant to create rational debate. if you dont agree with something, state why rather than just saying no. what do you think skills/groups like: move silently and hide disable device and open locks diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff spot and listen balance, climb, jump, and tumble should be merged/condensed into a single skill group? e.g., move silently and hide = stealth My thoughts: the merging of skills would simplify the rules and give specific skills more use. For example, steath rolls would require only 1 roll vs 1 roll rather then 2 rolls vs 2 rolls. Furthermore, the skill points invested would mean more rather than only be limited to 1 specific action. It was done in 3.0 to 3.5 for many skills and I think it was a great idea back then.
DarkRhystar 03-13-07, 08:15 PM	Bad idea. Helps classes with large skill lists much more than classes with small ones (all of a sudden a Rogue knows almost every class skill he has). Directly interferes with effects which boost a single skill. A good example is Invisibility which only affects Hide (why should it affect Move Silently?). For Invisibility to affect both Hide and Move Silently would make it far far better. In fact, any effect which boosts a single skill that folds into one becomes much more powerful. Makes skill tricks and anything skill dependent easier to qualify for since you have more skill points to purchase them (direct result of spending fewer points for other things).
ClementWillowbreaker 03-13-07, 08:20 PM	You would have to rebalance skill points per level for every class, every single feat that has a X Ranks prerequisite or requires a skill check, and countless [every category of everything in DnD] that grants a bonus to skills. With that level of revision, you might as well write your own from scratch, or play a system that has already done it. Besides World of Darkness, I don't know any off the top of my head (and WoD is soo not the thing you want when you posting on a DnD board).
Exner 03-13-07, 08:38 PM	from what i understand, not that i have played it, iron heroes has skill groups (and isnt that d20?). also modern d20 merge some things into skill groups (specifically hide/ms). those systems seem to work fine. of course, as is, you can't merge into skill groups without adjusting class #skills per level. changing the other stuff is pretty easy and hardly needs a complete revision of the rules (mr. chicken-little :P ). in fact, not many classes would need revision skill wise since most of the merging skills fall are rogue related. most characters will take certain skills in groups anyway (how many rogues take ms without hide or an acrobat that takes jump without tumble?) so why not merge them for simplicity. d20 is a great system but sometimes it gets bogged down by the shear number and complexity of the rules. it would speed up the game by keeping the number of rolls down (1 acrobatics score rather then 4 different scores).
DarkRhystar 03-14-07, 01:03 AM	it would speed up the game by keeping the number of rolls down (1 acrobatics score rather then 4 different scores). How much would it speed up the game? You roll a d20 and add the modifier on your character sheet, and see if it beats a DC. Making Hide and Move Silently checks and checking against a DC takes all of 10 seconds. Is cutting that down to 5 seconds really worth re-balancing every class's skill list and skill point allocation as well as every item, spell, or ability that gives a bonus to skills merged? Before you go off doing all of that, ask yourself if there are other simpler ways you could shave time off making rolls. Chances are, there probably are ways to save time in your group that involve much less work that'll give the same or better results.
Exner 03-14-07, 01:20 AM	i am not looking to reinvent anything. i am just duscussing my thoughts on the subject for future prosperty :D i subscribe to the K.I.S.S method (keep it simple stupid) and collapsing some skills into groups is a lot more simple. for example, most character who use stealth usually have the same (or close to it) number of ranks in move silently/hide. so why not combine them into 1 score? it would cut roll/mental math time by half. i would also cut down on creation time and opportunities for error. 2 rolls also makes it harder for the person actually trying to stealth -- ala 2 chances to fail for potentially 1 desired action. just some thoughts.
Xeviat-DM 03-14-07, 02:23 AM	I merge spot and listen into Notice, move silently and hide into Stealth, and disable device and open lock into Disable Device. I would not merge any others, though, for my own reasons. These skills were merged in Mutants and Masterminds, and it just makes things easier on me (for instance, Notice skill can be used for senses other than spot and listen, when situations like creatures with SCent come up)).
RainerNader 03-14-07, 03:52 AM	My group merges Hide and Move Silently into a skill called "Sneak." If you have Hide or Move Silently as a class skill, you now have Sneak as a class skill. The only balance issue is that you only need to max out one skill instead of two to be good at sneaking, but extra skill points are hardly game-breaking.
Neodymium 03-14-07, 04:45 AM	My group uses Stealth (Hide and Move Silently), and Perception (Spot and Listen). We haven't really encountered any problems or balance issues at all. Depending on the situation, players might be called on to roll separate Perception checks for hearing and seeing specifics, or just one that encompasses the taking in of everything around(including smell, which is oft-forgotten due to lack of actual in-game mechanics other than Scent and Stench). Stealth is similarly used. Often it's just one roll, but when serious sneaking situations are at hand, separate rolls can be used. For the sake of excitement! I'd be hesitant to merge any skills that have different ability modifiers.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 07:33 AM	Apparently d20 Star Wars Saga will be folding some Skills – probably a testing of the waters for 4th edition. I am already going to implement this in my next campaign: Acrobatics (Balance + Tumble) Athletics (Climb + Jump) Deception (Bluff + Disguise) Mac Daddy (Diplomacy + Gather Information) Perception (Listen + Spot) Stealth (Move Silently + Hide)
Mithrus 03-14-07, 08:24 AM	How much would it speed up the game? You roll a d20 and add the modifier on your character sheet, and see if it beats a DC. Making Hide and Move Silently checks and checking against a DC takes all of 10 seconds. Is cutting that down to 5 seconds really worth re-balancing every class's skill list and skill point allocation as well as every item, spell, or ability that gives a bonus to skills merged? In the case of "stealth", each check is an opposed check, which means the DM at least has to calculate/roll the opposed skill for EACH opponent. Fairly often, thats 5+ opponents. It's also every round the person moves. Folding skills in this case would help a ton. Acrobatics (Balance + Tumble) Athletics (Climb + Jump) Deception (Bluff + Disguise) Mac Daddy (Diplomacy + Gather Information) WT? Perception (Listen + Spot) Stealth (Move Silently + Hide) I like these (although Mac Daddy sounds SO silly, a new name is a must). OT, I think the number of skill points across the board is too low, so in all honesty, making the minimum skill points 4 instead of 2 would go a long way. And yes, this is AFTER the skill folding.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-14-07, 03:19 PM	I am covered in bells then cast invisibility. If you use Stealth, apparently I am more visible because of it. To be sensible, you would have to assign two-tiered DCs- one easy one to hear me, and one hard one to spot me. Half the time in DnD, some condition or situation affects visibility or hearing, but not both. So you will be making so many exceptions you never get to take advantage of the simplified skills.
Exner 03-14-07, 03:42 PM	I am covered in bells then cast invisibility. If you use Stealth, apparently I am more visible because of it. To be sensible, you would have to assign two-tiered DCs- one easy one to hear me, and one hard one to spot me. Half the time in DnD, some condition or situation affects visibility or hearing, but not both. So you will be making so many exceptions you never get to take advantage of the simplified skills. but how often does this happen? it is an unrealistic example. but even if this were to happen all it should do is give a circumstance penalty to your stealth check making it more likely someone will notice you through perception. the end result would be the same in both situations, the opposed roller will notice what square you are in (which would realistically make the invis. distortion more likely of being seen). ruleswise I would say that the spell would give you a bonus but the bells would penalize you.
paladin2019 03-14-07, 03:47 PM	In answer to another question, Decipher's LotR RPG uses Stealth and Observation. Each skill also has specialties which will enhance the character's chances of one style vs his base.
Moccanime 03-14-07, 04:23 PM	I did this with my D20 modern game. The biggest advantage was that my new players had an easier time playing it, now that there was fewer skills to look through. Before combining skills: New Player: "I want to try and sneak down into the alley" Me: "Roll a move silently and hide check" New Player: Looks through char sheet. Keeps on looking "ahh found it, now where is hide" five minutes later (or so it felt) "Ahh there it is" player rolls Now: New Player: "I want to try and sneak down into the alley" Me: "Roll a stealth check" New Palyer: quickly looks over the less than 10 skills on his char sheet "there it is" player rolls.
lint trap 03-14-07, 04:25 PM	I think Disable Device and Open Locks are already merged in d20 Modern. As for the rest, it makes sense to me. If you're worried about balance getting thrown off, though, you could stipulate that for every "merged" skill a character takes, they have to take one "flavor" skill (Craft, Perform, Profession, etc.).
Zumarai 03-15-07, 07:30 AM	I think Disable Device and Open Locks are already merged in d20 Modern. Can tell me what the merged Skill is called and what ability score modifier it uses? Disable Device (Int) Open Locks (Dex)
Zumarai 03-15-07, 07:31 AM	I like these (although Mac Daddy sounds SO silly, a new name is a must). I was obviously joking. Maybe call it Social?
Moccanime 03-15-07, 10:16 AM	This is not exactly D&D but might be usefull anyway. This is the skill combos I currently use in my D20 Modern game. Agility (Balance + Tumble + Escape Artist) Assess (Sense Motive + Gamble) Athletics (Climb + Jump + Swim) Computer Use Concentration Craft (as normal but Repair and Forgery is put under here as well) Disable Device (Disable Device + Demolitions) Handle Animal (Handle Animal + Ride) Interaction (Diplomacy + Gather Information) Intimidate Knowledge (as normal but Research, Decipher Script and Navigate is put under here as well) Linguistics (Speak Language + Read/Write Language) Perception (Listen + Spot) Perform Pilot (Drive + Pilot) Profession Treat Injury Search (as normal but Investigate is put under here as well) Sleight of Hand Stealth (Move Silently + Hide) Subterfuge (Bluff + Disguise) Survival
drunkendrake 03-15-07, 11:12 AM	Think about perception/notice/whatever. doesn't work Take an eagle. Spot +14, Listen +2. What's its Perception? 14? 2? 8? 16? Eagle is facing one way. Someone sneaks up behind. Either it has eyes in the back of its head, or things happen as per normal and birdy gets jumped. Eagle is facing other way. Somone sneaks up in front. Either it is blind, or things work as normal and birdy is fine. You can't get both situations to work as normal without having two skills, both Spot and Listen. You also need Move Silently and Hide, because they also can have very different ablities (why would a Tiny thing get a bonus to move silently?) This does come up in games- I once made a werehawk, and the differences were very pronounced. -Drake-
Zumarai 03-15-07, 11:14 AM	d20 Star Wars Saga will be folding Bluff, Disguise and Forgery into one Skill called Deception among others.
drunkendrake 03-15-07, 11:23 AM	<snip> Athletics (Climb + Jump + Swim) so a deepesa diver is brilliant at mountaineering? even if he's never been a mile from the sea in his life? Craft (as normal but Repair and Forgery is put under here as well) Making Swords makes you good at faking letters? I don't think so. Handle Animal (Handle Animal + Ride)you can push a dog sp you can charge a warhorse? Knowledge (as normal but Decipher Script is put under here as well)does that mean Decipher Script is a section of Knowledge or it's all one skill? Linguistics (Speak Language + Read/Write Language)barbarians? Perception (Listen + Spot)see above Stealth (Move Silently + Hide) see above Subterfuge (Bluff + Disguise) does Alter Self make you more eloquent? My opinions. A bit too broad selections for my liking. -Drake-
Neodymium 03-15-07, 03:26 PM	Think about perception/notice/whatever. doesn't work Take an eagle. Spot +14, Listen +2. What's its Perception? 14? 2? 8? 16? -Drake- I'd say it has 4 ranks in Perception. +2 for 14 WIS. It also has a racial bonus of +8 when making Perception checks involving sight. There is a precedent here. Conditional modifiers to skills and saving throws... like this quote you might recognize "+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal; Dwarves are especially capable with stonework and metalwork." easy as pie and no more complicated than the system already is.
kgauck 03-15-07, 03:56 PM	Skills should be plentiful in areas of the game where there is a lot going on. If there is a lot of sneaking going on, Hide and Move Silently makes more sense for the reasons described above. If it happens rarely, it might be OK to combine them so that its cost effective for one party member to invest in something that happens rarely. Likewise if something happens a lot, it makes sense to articulte additional skills. If a game involves a lot of debate, dicussion, bargaining, oratory, formal disputations, and rabble rousing, then it might make sense to have two kinds of Diplomacy, one for formal situations (say law court rooms, academic halls, or speeches in grand assemblies) and another for more mundane haggling (say buying goods, bribing guards, or hiring messengers). If a skill gets used so often a player would be an idiot not to have it, you might consider splitting it in two. If a skill is so rarely used that no one ever wants to invest even a few ranks, just in case, some combination might be in order.
Xeviat-DM 03-15-07, 04:02 PM	Mutants and Masterminds has a very interesting system for it's sensory skills. For the most part, there are 4 sense types: Visual (including normal sight, darkvision, low-light vision, and other super-senses), Auditory (normal hearing, blindsense and blindsight in sonar), Olfactory (normal smell and taste, scent), and Tactile (normal touch, blindsight (vibration), tremorsense); they also have Radio senses, Mental senses, and a "Special" category. When you gain a sense (lets say you pick up a radar sense), you can pay more for it to make it accurate and/or acute. You can use an accurate sense to pinpoint something's exact location, meaning you can use an accurate sense to target something in combat. You can use an Acute sense to sense fine details about anything you can detect with a particular sense. For humans, visual senses are accurate and acute, and auditory senses are just acute. So if something makes a noise, a human can figure out its general location with its acute hearing, but it can't pinpoint it well enough to target it. If something is visible, then humans can poinpoint it to target it. My point is that circumstance modifiers aren't too hard to utilize, like in the hawk example above.
Moccanime 03-18-07, 10:09 AM	Athletics (Climb + Jump + Swim) so a deepesa diver is brilliant at mountaineering? even if he's never been a mile from the sea in his life? Craft (as normal but Repair and Forgery is put under here as well) Making Swords makes you good at faking letters? I don't think so. Handle Animal (Handle Animal + Ride)you can push a dog sp you can charge a warhorse? Knowledge (as normal but Decipher Script is put under here as well)does that mean Decipher Script is a section of Knowledge or it's all one skill? Linguistics (Speak Language + Read/Write Language)barbarians? Perception (Listen + Spot)see above Stealth (Move Silently + Hide) see above Subterfuge (Bluff + Disguise) does Alter Self make you more eloquent My opinions. A bit too broad selections for my liking. -Drake- It would seem you missed two things, 1: this was made for d20 modern so of course I would not work with D&D without changing some of the skills. 2: the places where I wrote "as normal". Athletics - This makes as much sense as a smart person being better at physical things than a strong person (IE more skill points) Craft - the as normal part means that there is still all the normal subcategories of the skill. So being good at making swords makes you good at making fake swords as well, not letters. Handle Animal - Ride has been put under handle animal because ride is rarely used in my d20 modern games and it make sense to me and my group. Knowledge - In my D20 modern games so far, the things needed to be deciephered so far has been closly tied to knowledge as well, so my group kicked out Decipher Script and made a feat for apllying knowledge to Decipher check conserning the fields Linguistics - This combination is solely D20 modern specific as D&D dosn't have two seperate skills for speaking and writing a language (IE this like normal speak language in D&D). Perception - Combined this for two reasons. 1: for simplicity. 2: due to the fact that several PC races in my last couple of games has been reliyng on other sense than hearing and sight as theire primary senses and I didn't feel like making 3 new skills (touch, scent and taste) nor give said PC races any extraodianry abilities. Stealth - Having combined Perception I combined this as well for simplicity. Subterfuge - my D20 modern games dosn't have alter self soo... My players also usually have a harder time convincing someone that they are who they are trying to imitate (bluff) than actually looking like the person (disguise). One thing I didn't mention in my last post was that I have scaled several of the checks' DC up. My game also have a feat that let one gain a bonus on specialised applications of a skill. Like my post said, then this was also made for D20 modern not D&D, and there is quite a few differences between the two rulesets. One of the main being that just about any character has more feats than your average D&D fighter, so they can afford the specialization feat I mentioned above.
retillin 03-18-07, 12:57 PM	Well if merging them makes sense to you and it works fine go for it. However, for myself and my groups we need two rolls when sneaking for various reasons. If there is a battle and you are trying to sneak around someone they might get a negative penelty to their listen (from the sound of battle) but not their spot. So having the seperte for us just saves us the hassle of trying to fig out if or what new negative there should be in any situation.