Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SeekerInTheNight 03-11-07, 08:31 PM	I'll spare everyone here the two pages worth of debate that has raged over this subject, but it boils down to two questions. Can a Twinned Vitriolic Sphere made into a spell-like ability by the Archmage's high arcana class ability be a valid target for Quicken Spell-like Ability? Can Sudden Metamagic (CArc) be used on Spell-like abilities in addition to regular spells? -=NOTE=- We have debated this already from both sides, I'm looking for a hard source via book or errata or the judgment of a WotC person.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-11-07, 09:03 PM	While the Sudden feats themselves don't say anything, the paragraph that introduces the concept at the beginning of the CA's Feat chapter says they can. Whether this is just a relic of a previous version that didn't get changed to reflect the final version of the feat (like what happens with tables all the time), or just bad writing of a different kind, is up to you. And the spell is valid if three conditions are met. 1) Metamagicked spells can be selected as High Arcana by Archmages, 2) Archmages make them into SLAs, 3) the specific archmage can meet the caster level requirements for Quicken SLA to select the High Arcana in the first place. The first condition is not explicitly stated anywhere, the second is very much yes, and the third depends on the character. I don't remember Vitrolic Sphere's level or the adjustment of of Twin Spell, but they are probably really high (and Quicken SLA is pretty steep). Yeah, and you won't get a direct comment. WotC doesn't do that, unless you could CustServ emails (which you shouldn't).
runestar 03-12-07, 12:26 AM	I have my doubts about the first question. Does the twin spell count towards the effective lv of vitrolic sphere? Say vitrolic sphere is a 5th spell(I am not sure, but just assume for argument's sake). Twinning it normally takes up a 9th lv slot. If I take quicken SLA at 18th lv, this lets me apply it to a SLA of 5th lv or lower. In this case, does a twinned vitrolic sphere count as a 5th lv spell or a 9th lv spell for purposes of interacting with the quicken SLA feat?:confused:
SeekerInTheNight 03-12-07, 01:28 AM	xP You've stumbled onto the essence of the debate.
Merestil Haye 03-12-07, 06:56 AM	The generall principle is that if it's worse for the creature in question to interpret it as a lower level spell, it's a lower level spell, but if it's worse to interpret it as a higher level spell, its a higher level spell. Thus the spell is lower level when talking about save DCs, Spell Immunity issues, whether it can penetrate a Globe of Invulnerability etc etc etc. It's considered the higher level for purposes of spell slot expended, when calculating the cost of a magic item storing the metamagiced spell and so on. I'd allow the High Arcana to apply to the metamagiced spell - he's giving up a 5th level slot and a 9th level slot to do that - and require the creature be CL26 before he can apply Quicken SLA. If you want something official, e-mail the Sage.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-12-07, 01:49 PM	The general principle is that if it's worse for the creature in question to interpret it as a lower level spell, it's a lower level spell, but if it's worse to interpret it as a higher level spell, its a higher level spell. Definitely the situation. I have no doubts that you would use the adjusted spell level- that is basic metamagic rules. What is not explicitly stated is if metamagicked spells can be taken for High Arcana. Archmage doesn't say anything. The default assumption would be that it does, but if the DM thinks that is an unintended consequence of the ability and overpowered, he doesn't have to give it to you, and it isn't a house rule. Generally, I wouldn't mind a +4 metamagic effect on a lvl5 spell, since lvl9 slots are expensive. Specifically, I think Twin Spell is stupid, and remove the feat from my games. So I would let an Archmage get a Quickened Sphere as a SLA, for example. The RAW then allow metaSLA feats to be stacked on it.