Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sadley 11-04-07, 08:28 PM	So here is the situation.... My character is 10 levels of Mystic Theurge, 4 levels of Favored Soul and 2 levels of War Mage. He is awesome and fun to play and of course I have more spells than I can shake a stick at each day. So this is what I want to do and I need some help on the best way to do it or if it is even possible. I just like every other spontaneous caster out there want to be able to use Metamagic feats with my spells, whether they come from me or a wand. And of course I do not want it to take me a full round action, cause that is silly. I have right now two lesser rods of maximize and empower and a normal rod of quicken. Can I use those first of all like normal and not have it take me a full round to cast my spell ??? second of all....if I take the feats to counter act the full round casting time, which ones will I need. Do I have to use the alternate build in the PHBII for the sorcerer to be able to do this ?? Which would mean taking a level in sorcerer, or is there some way through takin other metamagic feats that will lesten the casting time as well ??? and I would also assume that if the Feats will allow me to cast something in regular time that it would still use up the slots higher than the spell to pay the price for the feat ??? ex. third level fireball from my war mage empowered would use up a 5th level spell slot instead of a 3rd level spell slot for the day. If you could please help that would be awesome, I have looked for some responses and other threads and have found a couple but something just seemed to me like they contradicted themselves. And certain people said this while others said that. Thanks in advance
dman11235 11-04-07, 08:44 PM	There's a feat in Complete Mage, Rapid Metamagic. That's all you need. And the rods do not increase the casting time, just like the sudden metamagic feats. And yes, even though the time is reduced, the payment is not.
sadley 11-05-07, 02:34 AM	So then if I have a Rod of Quicken Spell then I can use it as normal with my spontaneous spells ??
draco1119 11-05-07, 02:46 AM	So then if I have a Rod of Quicken Spell then I can use it as normal with my spontaneous spells ?? Yes.
LSMFT 11-05-07, 10:12 AM	Metamagic Rods Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast. Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses. It says only sorcerers, not spontaneous casters is general, but in principle, no quicken rods for you and the others still increase your casting time. As said before, get Rapid Metamagic and you're good to go. and I would also assume that if the Feats will allow me to cast something in regular time that it would still use up the slots higher than the spell to pay the price for the feat ??? ex. third level fireball from my war mage empowered would use up a 5th level spell slot instead of a 3rd level spell slot for the dayYes, of course. The casting time and the level-adjustment are two entirely separate issues. I just like every other spontaneous caster out there want to be able to use Metamagic feats with my spells, whether they come from me or a wand.Normally, you cannot apply your mm feats to spells from wands; although, there is a feat to let you do this: Metamagic Spell Trigger from CMag.
kjenks 11-05-07, 07:25 PM	My character is 10 levels of Mystic Theurge, 4 levels of Favored Soul and 2 levels of War Mage. Really? With only two levels of War Mage, how does he meet the arcane spellcasting requirement for Mystic Theurge? SRD === MYSTIC THEURGE Hit Die: d4. Requirements To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks. Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells. === You'd need two more levels of War Mage to qualify.
The_sleeper1 11-06-07, 10:59 AM	Really? With only two levels of War Mage, how does he meet the arcane spellcasting requirement for Mystic Theurge? SRD === MYSTIC THEURGE Hit Die: d4. Requirements To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks. Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells. === You'd need two more levels of War Mage to qualify. Saddly I was going to make a sorc/PS and it required 4 levels in each to get the level of spells required for thurge, seems nice but you will be 2 spell levels (4 caster levels) back in each class so no level 9 spells till epic and no level 8 spells till level 20. You do get lots of spells to chose from but all lower level ones.
StevenO 11-07-07, 12:28 AM	Thought one was you're build is incorrect as you can't get MT without 4 levels of War Mage. Now with Spontaneous casters and Metamagic (MM) there are a few options. My first question is how important is the move action you normally need to give up applying a MM feat to a spell? Mobility may be important but you can still use your 5' step. The feat "Arcane Preperation" allow you to prepare specific spells early and release the magic later at its normal speed. This feat effectively lets a spontaneous caster prepare some number of spell like a wizard/cleric would. Some may disagree but I believe the "Sudden" MM line should work with no increased casting time and I'd probably put the rods in this category as well.
Merestil Haye 11-07-07, 05:53 AM	Some may disagree but I believe the "Sudden" MM line should work with no increased casting time and I'd probably put the rods in this category as well.On Rods : The DMG explicitly states that applying a feat via a rod lengthens the casting time. On Sudden feats - I'm one who would argue. The Sudden feats have the [Metamagic] tag, which means they are Metamagic feats and subject to all the rules for Metamagic feats. I am aware that the Miniatures Handbook says that spells with Sudden feats applied take no more time to cast. I am also aware that CArc does not say that, that CArc is the later book and that WotC policy is that the latest version of a rule in a splatbook is the correct one. I also note that if that had been accidentally omitted, then WotC have had many chances to correct the omission (most recently the Rules Compendium) and have not taken them.
sadley 11-27-07, 10:19 AM	Ok first...I am only two levels of War Mage becuase my DM let it slide the Precocious Apprentice would meet my requirement for MT. It gives me a second level Arcane Spell. Our DM is a nice guy and let it slide for me. Second. Ok so this is the scoop, I am going to take Rapid Metamagic for a Feat. This would be enough to let me use the sudden rod ??? Or do I need the other Feat mentioned above ?? Metamagic Spell Trigger... Thirdly, I know I will not have the big spells till Epic, but that is all good. t is so much fun having so many spells at your disposal. And I think I have 7th Level spells right now with my Favored Soul and that is fun. Now that my arcane is at his 6th level spell slots, I think I can cast 13 Flame Strikes or something crazy like that...lol. So my feat pick ups are firstly Rapid Metamagic. And then do I still need, Metamagic Spell Trigger ??? Thanks for your help guys. Like I said the biggest thing this guy needs to do first and foremost is buff the party. So first round I would love to be able to fire off three spells. Rod of quicken (if it is still a free action for a rod, can not remember), Circlet of rapid casting ( swift ), and then regular action. Does anyone else have any other tactics I could use for spell casting faster ???
LSMFT 11-27-07, 11:12 AM	Ok first...I am only two levels of War Mage becuase my DM let it slide the Precocious Apprentice would meet my requirement for MT. It gives me a second level Arcane Spell. Our DM is a nice guy and let it slide for me.The only reason I don't allow it is out of meanness. :) Second. Ok so this is the scoop, I am going to take Rapid Metamagic for a Feat. This would be enough to let me use the sudden rod ??? Whether you could use a metamagic rod without an increase in casting time is going to be up to your DM I think. I (who am not your DM) would let you use rods with the same casting time as your regular feats, i.e. no increased time. I think mine is the better interpretation. Or do I need the other Feat mentioned above ?? Metamagic Spell Trigger...I don't think that would matter one way or the other. This feat works for applying mm feats you know to spells from wands and staves. Thanks for your help guys. Like I said the biggest thing this guy needs to do first and foremost is buff the party. So first round I would love to be able to fire off three spells. Rod of quicken (if it is still a free action for a rod, can not remember), Circlet of rapid casting ( swift ), and then regular action.Quicken (as a known feat or from a rod) has been changed to a swift action. Only one swift action per round. Does anyone else have any other tactics I could use for spell casting faster ???I think Craft Contingent item is going to be your best option. Craft the items and have them set to trigger in response to some specifc action on your part. If you were a sorcerer instead of a bloody warmage (enjoy all those redundant evocations :) I could list a few: Arcane Fusion, Celerity, Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability. (You could still get a familiar and use your cleric spell Imbue with Spell Ability.)
solbergb 11-27-07, 11:38 AM	So here is the situation.... I just like every other spontaneous caster out there want to be able to use Metamagic feats with my spells, whether they come from me or a wand. And of course I do not want it to take me a full round action, cause that is silly. I have right now two lesser rods of maximize and empower and a normal rod of quicken. Can I use those first of all like normal and not have it take me a full round to cast my spell ??? second of all....if I take the feats to counter act the full round casting time, which ones will I need. What you want is the feat "Rapid metamagic". It requires 12 ranks in spellcraft, so you can only take it at level 9. If your GM allows retraining (PHB2) you could probably take it next time you levelup. Using rods normally means you will have to spend a full round action to cast a spell. Be aware though, that this is a full round action in the sense of "I do a full attack" or "I charge" not a " 1 round casting time" action like summon monster 3. Spont casting means you lose your move action for the turn, that's all. It does not delay when the spell goes off (it goes off on your initiative, rather than just before your next initiative like a summon spell) The easiest way to mitigate the lost move action is to ride a horse or other mount. It can move while you cast your metamagicked spell. If you only move up to the mount's speed, no concentration check. If it moves up to 2x its speed, 10+spell level concentration check. If it is doing a run action, 15+spell levle concentration check. At your level you can probably automake all 3 checks. A rod of quicken won't work at all until you get rapid metamagic. With the others, the real awkwardness is to get the rod into your hand...this normally takes a move action, barring quickdraw. So you have to plan ahead. Sudden feats are normally ruled to not extend casting time (consider that sudden quicken is a warmage bonus feat, and it would be useless if it extended casting time - this is a pretty strong precedent as is the wording of the sudden feats). YMMV with your DM though.
Merestil Haye 11-27-07, 12:44 PM	Ok first...I am only two levels of War Mage becuase my DM let it slide the Precocious Apprentice would meet my requirement for MT. It gives me a second level Arcane Spell. Our DM is a nice guy and let it slide for me.Yes he is. It's well understood that as soon as you get ssecond level spellcasting in any class - divine classes included - the benefit of the feat becomes one extra second level spell slot. You thus lose the ability to cast that second level arcane spell. Second. Ok so this is the scoop, I am going to take Rapid Metamagic for a Feat. This would be enough to let me use the sudden rod ??? Or do I need the other Feat mentioned above ?? Metamagic Spell Trigger...Rapid Metamagic works fine. As far as rods go, the SRD says : A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.Any other class with spontaneous spellcasting works like the sorcerer; thus it applies to Warmage. Rapid Metamagic allows the featholder to cast his metamagic spells at normal casting times, and as we have seen, rods work for their wielders as if they were casting the spell themselves. If the DM houserules that the rods don't increase casting time, then you may not need the feat, but I would take it.
sadley 11-27-07, 09:19 PM	Awesome !! Awesome !! So I am going to take rapid metamagic and I still can have one more feat.... any suggestions, lol. And then I can buff like no other. But I guess it will not be three in one round just two because I guess rods are no longer free actions. Damn would that be nice. I thank you all for the help !!!!
risner 11-28-07, 12:10 AM	1) Can I use those first of all like normal and not have it take me a full round to cast my spell ??? 2) second of all....if I take the feats to counter act the full round casting time, which ones will I need. 3) Do I have to use the alternate build in the PHBII for the sorcerer to be able to do this ?? 4) and I would also assume that if the Feats will allow me to cast something in regular time that it would still use up the slots higher than the spell to pay the price for the feat ??? 5) ex. third level fireball from my war mage empowered would use up a 5th level spell slot instead of a 3rd level spell slot for the day. 6) MT 10, FS 4, WM 2 1) You can't use the Quicken at all and the others take a full round action. 2) Rapid Metamagic CM p46 3) Wouldn't help you, since only Sorcerer spells would be normal. 4) What? Nothing is going to change the level it takes. It will take whatever level it takes, the speed of casting won't effect that. 5) Yes, empower is +2. 6) Your build is invalid, there is no way (including feats) to get into MT without at least 4 levels of Warmage (or is it 3? if they get 2nd level spells at 3.)
ibayboy 11-28-07, 04:02 AM	Sudden feats are normally ruled to not extend casting time Can you say where this is written, or is it a houserule? (consider that sudden quicken is a warmage bonus feat, and it would be useless if it extended casting time - this is a pretty strong precedent as is the wording of the sudden feats). YMMV with your DM though. Sudden Quicken is not a Warmage bonus feat, they get Sudden Empower, Enlarge, Widen, and Maximise. I agree with Merestil Haye on this topic.
kjenks 11-28-07, 08:57 AM	When the Sudden metamagic feats were first published in the Miniatures Handbook, there was a rule going along with them that stated that the feats do not increase casting time for spontaneous casters. When the Sudden metamagic feats were reprinted and modified in Complete Arcane, that rule was left out. So it depends on which books your DM uses.
LSMFT 11-28-07, 09:50 AM	So I am going to take rapid metamagic and I still can have one more feat.... any suggestions, lol.Well, considering your investment in Rapid Metamagic, it would seem foolish to not invest in another metamagic feat. Buy going MT, you are going to miss out on those bonus feats the warmage normally gets. You're a blaster, so I would look at feats that allow you to up your damage with spells, like Maximize, Empower, of even the Sudden Versions of them. Another option is to look at ways to make sure SR doesn't screw you. Spell Penetration and/or Arcane Mastery. You have take Practiced Spellcaster at least once, right?
solbergb 11-28-07, 11:55 AM	Sudden Quicken is not a Warmage bonus feat, they get Sudden Empower, Enlarge, Widen, and Maximise. . I thought they got it at level 18, but don't have my books in front of me to be sure.
sadley 11-28-07, 01:04 PM	Yea I have practiced spell caster for my War Mage, it has done me well. But I was thinking of swapping it out now because most damage spells that I woul dcast have a cap of level 10 (you know 10d6 max) so I may not need it really anymore and then I could grab some spell penetration or something. and again I took Precocious Apprentice to cheat my way into MT early. Like I said...my DM is nice.
Merestil Haye 11-28-07, 01:12 PM	I thought they got it at level 18, but don't have my books in front of me to be sure.Sudden Quicken is not a Warmage bonus feat. I remember when I first had a Warmage PC reach 7th level, I thought about the issue and decided that the feats did make the spell take longer to cast, because SQ was not a Warmage bonus feat. If it had been I'd have ruled the other way.
LSMFT 11-28-07, 01:18 PM	Caster-level is a lot more than just the damage dice. The +4 caster-level you have from Practiced Spellcaster is as good as Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration combined, plus it adds range and duration to many of your spells. It can affect your ability to dispel magic and will help you avoid having your own spells dispelled. It is big. Do not dump that feat.