Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Snilloc 01-31-08, 03:35 PM	Hi again, another good question for this great comunity. I've got a problem... or just better... a wizard. He has the Metamagic Feat "Maximize Spell" and a Metamagic Rod (lesser) of Empower Spell. He uses the combination of this two items with Scorching Ray... the real problem is that this combination means that he deals 24 HP + 2d6 each ray, and at 11th level he casts 3 rays for a total amount of 24x3 = 72 + 6d6 of damage (taking a medium result it's 72 + 21 = 91HP) with a 5th spell slot used.... isn't it a too powerful combination? Do you have the same problem? :D
wonlee76 01-31-08, 03:57 PM	Not really. He has to hit with the rays to get that damage output. He has to hope the target isn't resistant to fire (and level 11 encounters, there should be lots of options available to bad guys to get some kind of fire resistance) and there are other more deadly spells at level 5 that he could memorize instead of maximized scorching ray. Plus, being within 60 feet of a target and if that target survives, wizard just became a target of a nice charge attack.
dman11235 01-31-08, 10:55 PM	Also: three times per day. And the fact that scorching ray is one of the better 1st level spells out there, right up there with Grease (this one is just so useful!). There is the resistance and immunity to fire factored in, and the actually hitting them. And I believe SR to overcome. So powerful? Yes. Overpowered? Hardly.
Snilloc 02-01-08, 08:50 AM	He has to hit with the rays to get that damage output. At that level a mage has a BAB of +6, calculating a basic +3 bonus of dext he got a total of +9, most Contact AC are about 13-14: it mean that a 4 on a d20 hit the target. He has to hope the target isn't resistant to fire (and level 11 encounters, there should be lots of options available to bad guys to get some kind of fire resistance). Resistance is about 10 with that CR, he still deal a lot of damage for that combination. (72-30= 42HP + 6d6 still a lot of damage) Maybe it should be a little much better this: Metamagic Wand (lesser) works only up to 3rd level spell. Metamagic SR use a 5th spell slot (but teorically it is still a 2nd level spell), in that case for use the wand I think I'll watch the effective spell slot.
Gnarl 02-01-08, 10:42 AM	Are you sure a maximized 2nd level spell doesn't count as a 5th level spell for the purpose of metamagic rods?
Merestil Haye 02-01-08, 10:44 AM	At that level a mage has a BAB of +6, calculating a basic +3 bonus of dext he got a total of +9, most Contact AC are about 13-14: it mean that a 4 on a d20 hit the target.First a minor nitpick; at 11th level his BAB is +5. Secondly, is he firing into melee? If so, he takes a -4 penalty to hit. Thirdly, is one of his allies granting the target cover? if so then it gets a +4 bonus to its AC. Concealment affects ray attacks in the same way as any other. Resistance is about 10 with that CR, he still deal a lot of damage for that combination. (72-30= 42HP + 6d6 still a lot of damage)Your evaluation still assumes he hits every time, and he does not. Even assuming he hits on a 4, that means he's not doing 63 hp; he's doing 63 * 0.85 hp = 54hp damage per round. Maybe it should be a little much better this: Metamagic Wand (lesser) works only up to 3rd level spell. Metamagic SR use a 5th spell slot (but teorically it is still a 2nd level spell), in that case for use the wand I think I'll watch the effective spell slot.You should compare a Maximised Empowered Scorching Ray to an Empowered Cone of Cold. Weighting is difficult because of the disparity of reflex saves and the existence of Evasion, but assuming he catches three creatures he'll be doing something like 58 points of damage each before saving throws. Assuming he can get a saving throw DC of 21, that would mean a typical poor-Ref creature with moderate Dex has about a 25% chance of saving. The weighted average damage comes out to about 50 per creature. (No wizard in his right mind employs an area effect spell against a high-Ref creature with any expectation of doing damage to the creature).
Nephlite 02-01-08, 11:45 AM	Hi again, another good question for this great comunity. I've got a problem... or just better... a wizard. He has the Metamagic Feat "Maximize Spell" and a Metamagic Rod (lesser) of Empower Spell. He uses the combination of this two items with Scorching Ray... the real problem is that this combination means that he deals 24 HP + 2d6 each ray, and at 11th level he casts 3 rays for a total amount of 24x3 = 72 + 6d6 of damage (taking a medium result it's 72 + 21 = 91HP) with a 5th spell slot used.... isn't it a too powerful combination? Do you have the same problem? :D How is he using both at same time... he only has 2 hands and spells like Scorchingray need Somatic components?
PhaedrusXY 02-01-08, 11:52 AM	How is he using both at same time... he only has 2 hands and spells like Scorchingray need Somatic components?So? Somatic components only require one hand.
Snilloc 02-01-08, 01:16 PM	Are you sure a maximized 2nd level spell doesn't count as a 5th level spell for the purpose of metamagic rods? This is a good question... I'm not sure about that... what do you think? there are various sides of the question, if level is 5th then some monsters immune to lower spell are affected but in that case the wand doesn't work (if it is the lesser version); if level is not affected the wand still works but enemies immune to lower level spell don't care about SR Maximized. In the PH when it introduces the Metamagic Feat it says: "Effect of Metamagic Feats on spell: in every case, a metamagic spell still works at its original level..." then I think the right answer is the second. There is only one metamagic feat that raises the effective level of the spell ("Heighten spell" if I'm right with translation :P ).
Gnarl 02-01-08, 03:18 PM	This is a good question... I'm not sure about that... what do you think? there are various sides of the question, if level is 5th then some monsters immune to lower spell are affected but in that case the wand doesn't work (if it is the lesser version); if level is not affected the wand still works but enemies immune to lower level spell don't care about SR Maximized. In the PH when it introduces the Metamagic Feat it says: "Effect of Metamagic Feats on spell: in every case, a metamagic spell still works at its original level..." then I think the right answer is the second. There is only one metamagic feat that raises the effective level of the spell ("Heighten spell" if I'm right with translation :P ). You seem right but it doesn't sound right... Does this mean that a wand of maximized magic missile costs 1x1x9x750 gold pieces?
Snilloc 02-01-08, 04:19 PM	There are 3 kinds of Metamagic Wands, each kind can be used with a maximum level (3rd, 6th or 9th level but I'm not sure of this and it's too late for check it out). You can create a wand of almost all the Metamagic Feats, you can use the wand 3 times for day and apply its power on every spell you want.
Father Dale 02-01-08, 04:49 PM	I wouldn't consider there to be a problem with the combination, per se. i.e. nothing wrong with Maximized, Empowered Scorching Rays. I don't think he can use that lesser metamagic rod on a Maximized Scorching Ray though. The rod can only affect spells of 3rd level or lower. If he had a regular rod of Empower then there would be no problem. If you read the sections on Metamagic Feats and also Metamagic Rods, I think it leads pretty clearly to the conclusion that a metamagic enhanced spell would count as the higher spell level for purposes of using metamagic rods with it.