Metamagic Feats and Item Creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamagic Feats and Item Creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WNG_pfoster
03-20-07, 11:46 AM Hi all, for some reason I can't find any official rules for using Metamagic Feats and Item Creation feats together.

For example, Widened Bless is 1st level spell but uses a 3rd or 4th spell slot (doesn't really matter, the fact is it uses a higher level slot). For the mechanic of saves or other effects, it's a 1st level spell, it just takes a higher level slot.

Now if my Cleric were to Scribe this as a scroll, what would the cost be?

Spell Level*Casting Level *(I forget what, but it's the other two variables I'm interested in).

1*1*(whatever) - 1st level spell, at a first level casting?

4*1*(whatever) - 4th level spell (slot) at a 1st level casting?

1*7*(whatever) - 1st level spell at a 7th level casting because you need to be at least level 7 to have 4th level spell slots?

4*7*(whatever) - 4th level spell (slot) at a 7th level casting because you need to be at least level 7 to have 4th level spell slots?

I'm thinking it's one of the later two but I'm a bit torn because the spell isn't really a 4th level spell for the sake of all other mechanics (determining save DC, spell immunities such as Minor Globe of Invulnerability, etc.).

Thoughts?

NOTE: I did download the official FAQ and it implied the last one, though another Feat that I'm not familiar with was added into the equation.
TygerTyger
03-20-07, 12:49 PM From the SRD

Magic Items and Metamagic Spells
With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

So yes, it would be the last one. For the exact reasons you ennumerated in your list. If the level limit applies, then it assumes the spell is, in fact, that level. Which of course means increased cost.

Had to look this up the other day to scribe a Extended Rope Trick as the character is only level 6. So it was 3 (level of the extended spell) X 5 (Minimum caster level for 3rd level spell) X 25 = 375. Still works out cheaper than it will at level 10 though, oddly enough. I think I'll be applying metamagic to that scroll for ever! :)
runestar
03-20-07, 12:50 PM The last one.
I can't remember off hand where the rule is, but there is a rule stipulating that you use the final lv for purposes of item creation costs, and raise the caster lv accordingly.

Someone help me out here?:P
WNG_pfoster
03-20-07, 01:34 PM Our DM dug this out of the SRD, it seems I skimmed over it. :embarrass

"While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

Seems, for the sake of item creation, you count the spell slot consumed. Thanks to those that replied. :D
Kyaran
03-20-07, 02:53 PM Just to bring up new issues... what about the Sudden X feats?

Can you Sudden Maximize a spell and scribe that onto a scroll? Into an item?

Wand of Sudden Empowered Scorching Ray?

Just for fun:
The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
AND
The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand’s creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)This sounds like you use one slot each day in making the item.
tarkin
03-20-07, 04:07 PM The Sudden ability are not really seperate feats.

They grant the use of the normal metamagic feat, without forcing you to pay the increased cost when casting the spell..

But making a magic item does NOT involve casting a spell.

Effectively this means that while most DM's allow you to use the Sudden feats to qualify for the pre-reqs to make a magic item, they do not lower the price.

A Wand of Empower Magic Missile costs the same, to buy, and to make (in time, gold and xp) if it was made by someone with the feat Empower, or if it was made by someone with the feat Sudden Empower.

--------

Also, technically, you can not make a Wand of Empowered Fireball, because it counts as a 5th level spell and Wands are restricted to 4th.

Power Gamers tend to house rule to let you get away with making a Wand of Empowered Fireball.
runestar
03-20-07, 09:56 PM Here you go.:)
Can sudden metamagic feats (from Complete Arcane) be used to scribe scrolls or craft wands that include the metamagic effect? If so, how would you calculate the cost (since sudden metamagic feats don’t alter the level of the spell)?

You can use a sudden metamagic feat in item creation; the cost to create the item would be just as if you were using the regular metamagic feat. For instance, using your Sudden Widen feat to create a scroll of widened fireball would cost as much as a scroll of a 6th-level spell (which is what a widened fireball is). The act of creating the scroll or wand would expend your daily use of Sudden Widen (since the act of creation triggers the spell, making it unavailable for casting).
TygerTyger
03-20-07, 10:52 PM Runestar,

Does that mean that, in the example they give there, if the person scribing the scroll is a 6th level wizard, that the cost would be:

6 (acting level of the spell) X 11 (needed level to cast 6th level spells, assuming wizard class) X 25

or

6 (acting level of spell) X 6 (actual caster level) X 25?

If its the second, scribing scrolls with that Sudden feat of mine just got a lot more interesting.
runestar
03-20-07, 10:55 PM It would be the first option(6*11*25). The spell is treated as 6th lv with regards to pricing, and a 6th lv spell requires a minimum caster lv of 11.

There is no free lunch in dnd.:P
TygerTyger
03-20-07, 10:59 PM Damn. Smoted by the evilness that is TANSTAFL. Thanks though.
Merestil Haye
03-21-07, 06:21 AM It would be the first option(6*11*25). The spell is treated as 6th lv with regards to pricing, and a 6th lv spell requires a minimum caster lv of 11.

There is no free lunch in dnd.:PSo how is being a 6th level caster successfully creating an item with a CL of 11 not getting a free lunch?

Suppose the spell in question were Fireball. By your ruling, my 6th level character, who can cast Fireballs that deliver 6d6 damage, has just created an item that can deal 60. Practiced Spellcaster could do that, but also requires the character actually be a 10HD creature - your ruling would allow this to be created by a 6HD creature.

I'd say the CL of that scroll is 6 for all purposes, including the evaluation of costs. It would have a market price of 900gp, twice that of the unMaximised scroll for a little bit less than twice the impact.
runestar
03-21-07, 06:26 AM I never said you could.
You still need caster lv of 11 to prepare a scroll of maximized fireball, even one modified with sudden maximize. If you can't, then I suppose the item creation attempt simply fails.

This combo simply allows you to do so with 6 lvs of wiz spellcasting, but you still need to master a caster lv of 11. Perhaps a fighter4/wiz5 with practiced spellcaster and another way of increasing his caster lv by another 2?:)
Merestil Haye
03-21-07, 07:20 AM I never said you could.
You still need caster lv of 11 to prepare a scroll of maximized fireball, even one modified with sudden maximize. If you can't, then I suppose the item creation attempt simply fails.

This combo simply allows you to do so with 6 lvs of wiz spellcasting, but you still need to master a caster lv of 11. Perhaps a fighter4/wiz5 with practiced spellcaster and another way of increasing his caster lv by another 2?:)Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying there. You make more sense now. Maybe I need more coffee?

I'd still probably allow the item to be crafted at less than 11th level; I think it makes for some interesting possibilities. I'll have to think on whether that allows other problems to creep in though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WNG_pfoster 03-20-07, 11:46 AM	Hi all, for some reason I can't find any official rules for using Metamagic Feats and Item Creation feats together. For example, Widened Bless is 1st level spell but uses a 3rd or 4th spell slot (doesn't really matter, the fact is it uses a higher level slot). For the mechanic of saves or other effects, it's a 1st level spell, it just takes a higher level slot. Now if my Cleric were to Scribe this as a scroll, what would the cost be? Spell LevelCasting Level (I forget what, but it's the other two variables I'm interested in). 11(whatever) - 1st level spell, at a first level casting? 41(whatever) - 4th level spell (slot) at a 1st level casting? 17(whatever) - 1st level spell at a 7th level casting because you need to be at least level 7 to have 4th level spell slots? 47(whatever) - 4th level spell (slot) at a 7th level casting because you need to be at least level 7 to have 4th level spell slots? I'm thinking it's one of the later two but I'm a bit torn because the spell isn't really a 4th level spell for the sake of all other mechanics (determining save DC, spell immunities such as Minor Globe of Invulnerability, etc.). Thoughts? NOTE: I did download the official FAQ and it implied the last one, though another Feat that I'm not familiar with was added into the equation.
TygerTyger 03-20-07, 12:49 PM	From the SRD Magic Items and Metamagic Spells With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell. So yes, it would be the last one. For the exact reasons you ennumerated in your list. If the level limit applies, then it assumes the spell is, in fact, that level. Which of course means increased cost. Had to look this up the other day to scribe a Extended Rope Trick as the character is only level 6. So it was 3 (level of the extended spell) X 5 (Minimum caster level for 3rd level spell) X 25 = 375. Still works out cheaper than it will at level 10 though, oddly enough. I think I'll be applying metamagic to that scroll for ever! :)
runestar 03-20-07, 12:50 PM	The last one. I can't remember off hand where the rule is, but there is a rule stipulating that you use the final lv for purposes of item creation costs, and raise the caster lv accordingly. Someone help me out here?:P
WNG_pfoster 03-20-07, 01:34 PM	Our DM dug this out of the SRD, it seems I skimmed over it. :embarrass "While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal." Seems, for the sake of item creation, you count the spell slot consumed. Thanks to those that replied. :D
Kyaran 03-20-07, 02:53 PM	Just to bring up new issues... what about the Sudden X feats? Can you Sudden Maximize a spell and scribe that onto a scroll? Into an item? Wand of Sudden Empowered Scorching Ray? Just for fun: The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) AND The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand’s creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)This sounds like you use one slot each day in making the item.
tarkin 03-20-07, 04:07 PM	The Sudden ability are not really seperate feats. They grant the use of the normal metamagic feat, without forcing you to pay the increased cost when casting the spell.. But making a magic item does NOT involve casting a spell. Effectively this means that while most DM's allow you to use the Sudden feats to qualify for the pre-reqs to make a magic item, they do not lower the price. A Wand of Empower Magic Missile costs the same, to buy, and to make (in time, gold and xp) if it was made by someone with the feat Empower, or if it was made by someone with the feat Sudden Empower. -------- Also, technically, you can not make a Wand of Empowered Fireball, because it counts as a 5th level spell and Wands are restricted to 4th. Power Gamers tend to house rule to let you get away with making a Wand of Empowered Fireball.
runestar 03-20-07, 09:56 PM	Here you go.:) Can sudden metamagic feats (from Complete Arcane) be used to scribe scrolls or craft wands that include the metamagic effect? If so, how would you calculate the cost (since sudden metamagic feats don’t alter the level of the spell)? You can use a sudden metamagic feat in item creation; the cost to create the item would be just as if you were using the regular metamagic feat. For instance, using your Sudden Widen feat to create a scroll of widened fireball would cost as much as a scroll of a 6th-level spell (which is what a widened fireball is). The act of creating the scroll or wand would expend your daily use of Sudden Widen (since the act of creation triggers the spell, making it unavailable for casting).
TygerTyger 03-20-07, 10:52 PM	Runestar, Does that mean that, in the example they give there, if the person scribing the scroll is a 6th level wizard, that the cost would be: 6 (acting level of the spell) X 11 (needed level to cast 6th level spells, assuming wizard class) X 25 or 6 (acting level of spell) X 6 (actual caster level) X 25? If its the second, scribing scrolls with that Sudden feat of mine just got a lot more interesting.
runestar 03-20-07, 10:55 PM	It would be the first option(61125). The spell is treated as 6th lv with regards to pricing, and a 6th lv spell requires a minimum caster lv of 11. There is no free lunch in dnd.:P
TygerTyger 03-20-07, 10:59 PM	Damn. Smoted by the evilness that is TANSTAFL. Thanks though.
Merestil Haye 03-21-07, 06:21 AM	It would be the first option(61125). The spell is treated as 6th lv with regards to pricing, and a 6th lv spell requires a minimum caster lv of 11. There is no free lunch in dnd.:PSo how is being a 6th level caster successfully creating an item with a CL of 11 not getting a free lunch? Suppose the spell in question were Fireball. By your ruling, my 6th level character, who can cast Fireballs that deliver 6d6 damage, has just created an item that can deal 60. Practiced Spellcaster could do that, but also requires the character actually be a 10HD creature - your ruling would allow this to be created by a 6HD creature. I'd say the CL of that scroll is 6 for all purposes, including the evaluation of costs. It would have a market price of 900gp, twice that of the unMaximised scroll for a little bit less than twice the impact.
runestar 03-21-07, 06:26 AM	I never said you could. You still need caster lv of 11 to prepare a scroll of maximized fireball, even one modified with sudden maximize. If you can't, then I suppose the item creation attempt simply fails. This combo simply allows you to do so with 6 lvs of wiz spellcasting, but you still need to master a caster lv of 11. Perhaps a fighter4/wiz5 with practiced spellcaster and another way of increasing his caster lv by another 2?:)
Merestil Haye 03-21-07, 07:20 AM	I never said you could. You still need caster lv of 11 to prepare a scroll of maximized fireball, even one modified with sudden maximize. If you can't, then I suppose the item creation attempt simply fails. This combo simply allows you to do so with 6 lvs of wiz spellcasting, but you still need to master a caster lv of 11. Perhaps a fighter4/wiz5 with practiced spellcaster and another way of increasing his caster lv by another 2?:)Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying there. You make more sense now. Maybe I need more coffee? I'd still probably allow the item to be crafted at less than 11th level; I think it makes for some interesting possibilities. I'll have to think on whether that allows other problems to creep in though.