Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 03-29-08, 03:45 PM	I have a prestige class that grants a special ability called metamagic mastery. Metamagic mastery reduces by 1 the increase in the spell-level slot needed to cast a spell with metamagic, but not below zero. The class grants metamagic mastery 1 at 1st level, 2 at 5th, and 3 at 9th level. (The progression continues every 4 levels at epic levels.) Initially I gave the prestige class a level of spell casting for each level. The party's NPC sorcerer/metamagic master, however, really outshines the party's PC wizard, at least in combat, even though right now he's got a caster level of 22 and she's got a caster level of 18. (She's got a +2 LA for being a drow, and her total level is only 20, not 22, because she doesn't earn the roleplaying experience that the wizard does. She's actually about to reach 21st, when her caster level under my original rules would rise to 19.) The PHB II introduced the metamagic specialist alternative to having a sorcerer's familiar, which contributes to her effectiveness in combat since she no longer needs to take a full-round action to add metamagic. I'd decided to adjust the prestige class to not grant an increase in caster level at each level where it grants an increase in metamagic mastery, i.e. where it allows her to reduce by one more the spell-level slot she need to cast with metamagic. (Right now she has metamagic mastery 2, so she can cast an empowered spell in the same level slot as the base spell, or a maximized spell in a slot only one level higher.) As the party is moving into epic levels, I'm wondering though if reducing her caster level by one (i.e. not having it go up by one) every four levels might not be too large a payment for reducing the metamagic level slot by one. I had thought about maybe having the prestige class not grant a caster level only at 1st level, when it grants metamagic mastery 1, or perhaps have it not grant a caster level every second time it grants an increase to metamagic mastery, so at levels 1 and 9. So I really have three options: 1. Grant a caster level per level. 2. Grant a caster level only when it doesn't grant a level of metamagic mastery. 3. Grant a caster level only when it doesn't grant an odd level of metamagic mastery. Which option seems best to you, and why? Thanks! :)
Kouk 03-29-08, 04:16 PM	Seems fine to not give CL increases with that Metamagic Mastery thing. The Metamagic Mastery is still more effective than a single Caster Level after all (except in the case of spell resistance).
Thorsbjorn 03-29-08, 04:22 PM	Seems fine to not give CL increases with that Metamagic Mastery thing. The Metamagic Mastery is still more effective than a single Caster Level after all (except in the case of spell resistance). Thanks! How did you arrive at the conclusion that metamagic mastery is more effective than a single caster level? Thanks! :)
Kouk 03-29-08, 04:38 PM	Just by figuring that if you Empower a CL 6 Fireball, you get effectively an "extra 3d6" dice of damage on average. Compared to the 2 caster levels, which would give you 2d6 extra damage. Take the same Fireball at CL 10. An Empowered CL 10 Fireball will do an "extra 5d6" worth of damage on average. Increasing the Caster Level by 2 would be useless for a CL 10 Fireball normally, because it caps out at 10d6. EDIT: The only issues are CL checks for Spell Resistance (could be important but there's still Spell Penetration out there) and for range, which is rarely an issue itself.
Thorsbjorn 03-29-08, 04:44 PM	Just by figuring that if you Empower a CL 6 Fireball, you get effectively an "extra 3d6" dice of damage on average. Compared to the 2 caster levels, which would give you 2d6 extra damage. Take the same Fireball at CL 10. An Empowered CL 10 Fireball will do an "extra 5d6" worth of damage on average. Increasing the Caster Level by 2 would be useless for a CL 10 Fireball normally, because it caps out at 10d6. EDIT: The only issues are CL checks for Spell Penetration (could be important but there's still Spell Penetration out there) and for range, which is rarely an issue itself. It takes two levels of metamagic mastery to empower a spell in its usual slot. So when empowering adds another 3d6, each level of metamagic mastery is granting 1.5d6, which I guess is technically better than 1 caster level. For 5d6 it's 2.5d6 per level of metamagic mastery, so that's better. But you're still losing not only the caster level for spell resistance and dispel magic, but also for Spellcraft bonus (and thus epic spell DC) and before 20th level caster new spells known and spells per day.
Kouk 03-29-08, 05:35 PM	I can't really comment on Epic levels, I've never played a campaign that far myself. The reason Metamagic feats usually take spell slots of higher levels is because, theoretically, the modified spell is about equivalent to a spell of that higher level. Usually it is a bit less effective, but the versatility offered by the option of Metamagic feats can balance that slight difference out. Sticking with Fireball: A normal Fireball caps at 10d6 damage at 10th level. Let's use a 14th level Sorcerer for this. If you Empower it, it takes a 5th level spell slot and deals what approximates 15d6 damage. Average damage is about 52.5. Compare it to Delayed Blast Fireball, which is a 7th level spell and deals 14d6 damage when a Sorcerer first gains access to it. Delayed Blast Fireball will continue to scale up to 20d6 at 20th level, so it is still useful, and there is that "delay" function, which in a few rare instances might be neat. Average damage at 14th level is 49. Average damage for 20th level Delayed Blast Fireball is about 70. If you take your normal Fireball, and Maximize it instead, it now deals a guaranteed 60 points of damage for a level 6 spell slot. Don't get me wrong, the higher level spell still has a slightly higher Save DC, which may put it over the edge -- but the Metamagicked lower-level spell gets close. But, say your 14th level Sorcerer is fighting creatures Immune to fire. Now your Delayed Blast Fireball is nearly useless, but you can still use your Lightning Bolt with Metamagic feats instead of having to try and learn a higher level Lightning damage spell. For Sorcerers, Metamagic is sort of like getting extra "spells known." (Obviously, I am assuming you have a spell with a different energy type than "fire" that you can improve). The examples of these direct damage spells don't really hold up if the spellcaster doesn't use them. However, an Enchanter could still benefit from a longer lasting Charm or Dominate (Extend), or a spell with particular effects not mimicked at higher levels, like Otto's Irresistible Dance, getting a boost to Save DCs (Heighten). You said the Sorcerer was outshining the Wizard, so that made me assume they were competing in the same area, most likely damage.
Thorsbjorn 03-29-08, 11:40 PM	I can't really comment on Epic levels, I've never played a campaign that far myself. The reason Metamagic feats usually take spell slots of higher levels is because, theoretically, the modified spell is about equivalent to a spell of that higher level. Usually it is a bit less effective, but the versatility offered by the option of Metamagic feats can balance that slight difference out. Sticking with Fireball: A normal Fireball caps at 10d6 damage at 10th level. Let's use a 14th level Sorcerer for this. If you Empower it, it takes a 5th level spell slot and deals what approximates 15d6 damage. Average damage is about 52.5. Compare it to Delayed Blast Fireball, which is a 7th level spell and deals 14d6 damage when a Sorcerer first gains access to it. Delayed Blast Fireball will continue to scale up to 20d6 at 20th level, so it is still useful, and there is that "delay" function, which in a few rare instances might be neat. Average damage at 14th level is 49. Average damage for 20th level Delayed Blast Fireball is about 70. If you take your normal Fireball, and Maximize it instead, it now deals a guaranteed 60 points of damage for a level 6 spell slot. Don't get me wrong, the higher level spell still has a slightly higher Save DC, which may put it over the edge -- but the Metamagicked lower-level spell gets close. But, say your 14th level Sorcerer is fighting creatures Immune to fire. Now your Delayed Blast Fireball is nearly useless, but you can still use your Lightning Bolt with Metamagic feats instead of having to try and learn a higher level Lightning damage spell. For Sorcerers, Metamagic is sort of like getting extra "spells known." (Obviously, I am assuming you have a spell with a different energy type than "fire" that you can improve). The examples of these direct damage spells don't really hold up if the spellcaster doesn't use them. However, an Enchanter could still benefit from a longer lasting Charm or Dominate (Extend), or a spell with particular effects not mimicked at higher levels, like Otto's Irresistible Dance, getting a boost to Save DCs (Heighten). You said the Sorcerer was outshining the Wizard, so that made me assume they were competing in the same area, most likely damage. Yes, this particular sorcerer has many spells that cause hit points of damage. She can now cast an empowered meteor swarm, for example, right in its 9th-level slot. The 22nd-level wizard took Improved Spell Capacity because he doesn't have time right now to sit down for weeks to create epic spells, but alas he's not optimized for combat and has no metamagic feats at all, so the spells in his 10th-level slot don't do any more damage than his 9th-level spells. Both casters can cast spells with different energy descriptors. They both have meteor swarm, polar ray, delayed blast fireball, and lightning bolt. Without checking I think they both have cone of cold, and the sorcerer (whose sheet I have) has arc of lightning and chain lightning as well. She also has the feat Energy Affinity: acid, so she can turn any of of these into an acid spell.
Kouk 03-29-08, 11:59 PM	"Outshining" or competing members of a party should be avoided, because it is better that everyone have their own niche and are not "second fiddle" to the "real" character of that role. Even if you tweaked the Prestige Class (which is probably a good idea) it wouldn't change one player being better and one worse than another. Being exactly equal at the same task is not much better. Maybe you could suggest to the Wizard to try some different spells, since he is not already focused on one area. There are many aspects of magic which do not involve hit point damage. If there is no time for the Wizard to get more differentiated spells, perhaps one of their next encounters could be with a high level enemy Wizard... with his spellbook nearby of course. You could allow one character to "retrain" or just introduce a new character, though those are more obvious changes to the game world.
dman11235 03-30-08, 01:04 AM	You know a feat called Arcane Thesis? It's overpowered in some cases due to the fact that it lowers the cost of MM feats by insane amounts. The Incantatrix gets this (your) ability as its capstone and that (among other things) make it a really, really, really powerful class (overpowered). Getting that ability four times is just rediculous. There is the epic feat you know. I shall now list a couple instances in which you do not want this to be in the hands of players (or DMs!): Enervation Scorching Ray+Searing Spell Orb of X (cold or fire+piercing cold or searing spell) Hammer of Righteousness. Any other damage spell or spell that does ability or energy damage or drain sort of thing. EDIT: The MM mastery PrC class already exists: Incantatrix (PGtF).
Rymosrac 03-30-08, 01:22 AM	The dman is correct. Reducing all metamagic costs by up to four levels is disgusting beyond description.
Thorsbjorn 03-30-08, 01:36 AM	You know a feat called Arcane Thesis? It's overpowered in some cases due to the fact that it lowers the cost of MM feats by insane amounts. The Incantatrix gets this (your) ability as its capstone and that (among other things) make it a really, really, really powerful class (overpowered). Getting that ability four times is just rediculous. There is the epic feat you know. I shall now list a couple instances in which you do not want this to be in the hands of players (or DMs!): Enervation Scorching Ray+Searing Spell Orb of X (cold or fire+piercing cold or searing spell) Hammer of Righteousness. Any other damage spell or spell that does ability or energy damage or drain sort of thing. EDIT: The MM mastery PrC class already exists: Incantatrix (PGtF). The capstone ability of the incantatrix is drain item, not improved metamagic, the incantatrix gets many, many more abilities than the metamagic master, I created the class before the epic feat Improved Metamagic existed, metamagic mastery works differently than Improved Metamagic in any case, the metamagic master reduces the level slot required by three at 9th level, not by four as you state, and "ridiculous" is the correct spelling of the word. :P
dman11235 03-30-08, 09:48 PM	Are you using the other Incantatrix? Cause the one I see in PGtF has Improved Metamagic. The 3.0 version has Item Drain, and IM at level 8. And excuse my spelling error, I was away from my normal computer and wasn't using Firefow. And three is just as bad. Well, it's a little better, but still.
Weab 03-31-08, 11:28 AM	being able to maximize, twin ray, searing spell, etc, with no adjusting is just sick. I've never played epic, but in a regular game, I'd gladly give up 3 caster levels for maximized twinned enervations a bunch of times, as well as maximized shivering touches. heck, could you use this on heighten? worst case scenario, you cast every spell with a CL 3 levels higher, effectively making up your level differetial.
Kouk 03-31-08, 11:31 AM	being able to maximize, twin ray, searing spell, etc, with no adjusting is just sick. I've never played epic, but in a regular game, I'd gladly give up 3 caster levels for maximized twinned enervations a bunch of times, as well as maximized shivering touches. heck, could you use this on heighten? worst case scenario, you cast every spell with a CL 3 levels higher, effectively making up your level differetial. Using Heighten won't affect your Caster Level, it will only affect your Save DCs by making them whatever the new spell level is. DCs are 10 + Spell Level + Modifier, so it raises the Spell Level part.