Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sijigs 09-05-07, 12:13 AM	Mindsight A creature that has this feat possesses innate telepathic ability that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings within range of its telepathy. The creature perceives where the others are and how powerful their intellects are. Prerequisite: Telepathy special quality. Benefit: A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. This works much like blindsense―the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the being still has total concealment unless the creature can see it by some other means. The creature also perceives several observable characteristics about each being detected with mindsight, including the being's type and Intelligence score. The creature need not take any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is as obvious to mindsight as the being's race and clothing would be to eyesight. Normal: Telepathy offers no special ability to sense other minds. The creature has to know that a being is there to communicate with it telepathically. Blindsense : Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. Line of Effect : A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin). An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect. Total Cover : If you don't have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover. Guys, one of our PCs think that his mindsight feat can go through walls. I keep hammering him that you need line-of-sight therefore NO. But he keeps insisting so I'm putting this up for your opinions - what do you think??
tarkin 09-05-07, 09:51 AM	It definitely does not need Line of SIGHT. But it does need line of Effect. This works much like blindsense The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Blindsense can not see through walls, because it needs line of effect. As the feat you are discussing refers to blindsense, it also needs LOE and can not see through walls.
Tempest Stormwind 09-05-07, 10:12 AM	Actually, that part is arguable. Take the situation where you have a person on the other side of the door. For sake of simplicity, we'll use the typical PC "telepathy" of Mindbender 1, which grants 100' telepathy that can reach any creature with a language. This person can be contacted by your telepathy, since telepathy does NOT require line of effect. Thus, this person is within range of your telepathy. Thus, this person can be detected with Mindsight. Conclusion (of this line of reasoning): Mindsight isn't affected by walls. It all depends on how much emphasis you put on "much like" -- I hold that it isn't exactly the same, and the telepathy detection requirement replaces the LoE requirement since it isn't "as" or "exactly like" blindsense. However, the case that Tarkin presents is *almost* as sound in the rules but still works nonetheless. I've been running it as passing through walls. It has NOT caused a problem. It just means that creatures have a harder time surprising the wizard. Do note that Telepathy isn't actually mind-affecting, and since Mindsight depends on Telepathy, it can't be blocked via Mind Blank. That's more of a problem than LoE, in my mind.
tarkin 09-05-07, 11:21 AM	I would definitely agree that normal telepathy does not need Line of Effect. And I can see someone arguing that the words "much like" leave a lot of wiggle room. All in All, I would not object if the DM ruled either way.
goawayugh 09-05-07, 02:55 PM	1) You absolutely do not need line-of-sight. That is the entire point of the feat, to "see" things that you can't see. 2) line-of-effect may be debatable. Here's my take on it: I'm w/ tempest on this one. "Much like" means that it works similar to, not exactly the same as. If it worked exactly the same, it would just say that you get blindsense out to the range of your telepathy. It's saying that it works "much like blindsense" to give you a starting mental reference point to understand how it works. It then continues on to explain exactly how it does work. It wouldn't go on to explain everything else if it worked EXACTLY like blindsense. Conclusion: LOE doesn't matter, your friend is right.
sijigs 09-05-07, 05:31 PM	But it does need line of Effect. Apologies Tarkin, line of effect. After all that quoting, I left the most important aspect. :D telepathy does NOT require line of effect. Tempest, I've looked through the psion Telepathy list. Most of the powers need line-of-sight or line-of-effect. How is it that this one feat is excluded? This feat is overpowered then? Say.. compared to touchsight? 1) You absolutely do not need line-of-sight. That is the entire point of the feat, to "see" things that you can't see. Thanks, pal. You are only 5 hours late on this one from Tarkin. 2) line-of-effect may be debatable. Here's my take on it: I'm w/ tempest on this one. "Much like" means that it works similar to, not exactly the same as. If it worked exactly the same, it would just say that you get blindsense out to the range of your telepathy. It's saying that it works "much like blindsense" to give you a starting mental reference point to understand how it works. It then continues on to explain exactly how it does work. It wouldn't go on to explain everything else if it worked EXACTLY like blindsense. Conclusion: LOE doesn't matter, your friend is right. Great, it's your take.. therefore please don't make conclusions because your line of reasoning is flawed. It's not like writers don't sometimes leave stuff out because they think you won't assume something anymore than it is. Obviously, that's not the case in this instance. I take mindsight working very similar to the ability blindsense and the psion power touchsight.
goawayugh 09-05-07, 05:43 PM	But he keeps insisting so I'm putting this up for your opinions - what do you think?? If you ask the board for our opinions, don't get an attitude when we don't agree with you. That's a quick way to get people to stop answering your questions.
longshafter 09-05-07, 05:56 PM	goawayugh makes a good point
sijigs 09-05-07, 06:00 PM	If you ask the board for our opinions, don't get an attitude when we don't agree with you. That's a quick way to get people to stop answering your questions. Sorry, I took your response as giving me attitude so I gave it back. Peace! :D
goawayugh 09-05-07, 06:02 PM	Sorry, I took your response as giving me attitude so I gave it back. Peace! :D Nope, no attitude.
sijigs 09-05-07, 09:41 PM	I would definitely agree that normal telepathy does not need Line of Effect. And I can see someone arguing that the words "much like" leave a lot of wiggle room. All in All, I would not object if the DM ruled either way. If you rule that it penetrates through walls, it beats tremorsense, touchsight and blindsight. Except of course that it has to have a Int score. Doesn't sound right to me. :confused:
Tempest Stormwind 09-05-07, 11:08 PM	Tempest, I've looked through the psion Telepathy list. Most of the powers need line-of-sight or line-of-effect. How is it that this one feat is excluded? This feat is overpowered then? Say.. compared to touchsight? I was referring to the very specific special quality of "telepathy" as granted by, for instance, Mindbender 1, as I specified. NOT the same as the psionic discipline of the same name. I thought I was quite clear on that. Basically, the feat operates using the range of a special quality of variable range (mindbender 1 = 100', formian queen = miles, for instance), and that ability only cares about distance, not interposing obstacles. Thus, Mindsight -- the verbatim way -- doesn't need line of effect. HOWEVER, an argument can be made that it should, given the presence of "much like blindsense." I see this as less sound, but still acceptable. Either interpretation works. I haven't had a problem with either on that point. The point I make is that neither the Telepathy special quality nor Mindsight specify *anything* about actually being mind-affecting. Thus, nothing I'm aware of can actually mask your presence from it. Note that Mindsight is also *much* harder to get than Touchsight. Touchsight requires 5 ML and can be made into an item. Mindsight requires a feat, one *very* specific level in a single class that may be poorly designed OR being a few very specific, mostly monster-based races, and cannot be made into an item.
sijigs 09-05-07, 11:29 PM	I was referring to the very specific special quality of "telepathy" as granted by, for instance, Mindbender 1, as I specified. NOT the same as the psionic discipline of the same name. I thought I was quite clear on that. You were but I wanted to use the discipline as a point of reference from a character building standpoint. Note that Mindsight is also *much* harder to get than Touchsight. Touchsight requires 5 ML and can be made into an item. Mindsight requires a feat, one *very* specific level in a single class that may be poorly designed OR being a few very specific, mostly monster-based races, and cannot be made into an item. Saw that.. But our DM isn't very happy having to put pieces on the board even before we start our dungeon explorations. LOL. I guess I shouldn't press on this too hard. :rolleyes: Thus, nothing I'm aware of can actually mask your presence from it. It's called DMs discretion - which has happened the last couple of sessions. Hehe. Thanks for the input. Ps. Why don't we ask Custserv? :D
Tempest Stormwind 09-05-07, 11:43 PM	You were but I wanted to use the discipline as a point of reference from a character building standpoint. Why? One's a special quality derived from race or a specific class feature, plus a feat, while the other is a psionic power (analagous to a spell). There's no point of comparison. Saw that.. But our DM isn't very happy having to put pieces on the board even before we start our dungeon explorations. LOL. I guess I shouldn't press on this too hard. :rolleyes: He doesn't have to. All he needs to say is "You can tell there's a humanoid of genius intelligence in that room." In other words, **** he should have written in his adventure notes, exactly as if he'd cast a divination effect such as Clairvoyant Sense. Note that I have been known to spam Clairvoyant Sense during prep time to the point where I had a full map of the dungeon in advance. (I used info from previous senses to dictate where the new senses would appear.)
sijigs 09-06-07, 12:15 AM	[Why? One's a special quality derived from race or a specific class feature, plus a feat, while the other is a psionic power (analagous to a spell). There's no point of comparison. My co-player's counter argument was "it's telepathy.. it should just all go through walls"... the closest reference I thought was the psionic discipline list. He doesn't have to. All he needs to say is "You can tell there's a humanoid of genius intelligence in that room." In other words, **** he should have written in his adventure notes, exactly as if he'd cast a divination effect such as Clairvoyant Sense. What, really? So the words "detect and pinpoint" mean the DM doesn't have to put pieces on the board? If so, then this is where the problem is.. :rolleyes: Note that I have been known to spam Clairvoyant Sense during prep time to the point where I had a full map of the dungeon in advance. (I used info from previous senses to dictate where the new senses would appear.) That's cool.. that or arcane eye.
psionichamster 09-06-07, 12:32 AM	as above, Mindsight by RAW does not allow for any kind of counter. as a general rule of thumb, my dm was simply advising me of the presence/type/intelligence of the creatures i felt, not necessarily their exact locations unless we were in direct combat already. of course, if we were on the other side of the door, that's when we'd get position. as far as mindblank...sure, by RAW, telepathy and mindsight wouldn't work, but as a houserule (which i agreed with), things that were mindblanked would be unseen to mindsight. it also sucked to walk right into a transparent ooze cuz i relied too much on that sense. -the hamster
Tempest Stormwind 09-06-07, 12:49 AM	My co-player's counter argument was "it's telepathy.. it should just all go through walls"... the closest reference I thought was the psionic discipline list. The counter is that Telepathy says you can communicate with any creature with a set distance that has a language. If someone else is within that distance, behind a wall, I can still do it. It does not specify line of effect, nor does it inherit it from a bigger ruleset (telepathy powers do that, as psionic powers require line of effect unless otherwise specified). Thus, the co-player's argument is correct. What, really? So the words "detect and pinpoint" mean the DM doesn't have to put pieces on the board? If so, then this is where the problem is.. :rolleyes: Nope. The PLAYER with Mindsight knows what squares everyone's in. The other players won't know this, but they would if you put the minis down. In general, I leave the minis off the board until people can tangibly see them, not just pinpoint them. Note that I actually game over OpenRPG, so if I'm DMing the miniatures are already loaded with the map. I just unhide them when the players detect them. That's cool.. that or arcane eye. Seers do it better. Note that arcane eye can't go through walls but clairvoyant sense can.
sijigs 09-06-07, 01:11 AM	.... nor does it inherit it from a bigger ruleset (telepathy powers do that, as psionic powers require line of effect unless otherwise specified). Hmm.. okay. It doesn't specify a lot of things.. that's why our DM (and me to some extent) seemed to think it overpowerful. Seemed logical to utilise that "bigger ruleset" for lack of reference. But point taken. as a general rule of thumb, my dm was simply advising me of the presence/type/intelligence of the creatures i felt, not necessarily their exact locations unless we were in direct combat already. of course, if we were on the other side of the door, that's when we'd get position. Yeap - that's a good rule of thumb. as far as mindblank...sure, by RAW, telepathy and mindsight wouldn't work, but as a houserule (which i agreed with), things that were mindblanked would be unseen to mindsight. Agree.
AntiDjinn 09-06-07, 04:36 AM	I am going to go with you do need line of effect, but I wouldn't leave the table if a DM ruled otherwise because the wording is soft enough to allow either interpretation. It says "much like Blindsense" and then doesn't go on to add "except for the part about needing line of effect." I take this to mean that only the differences listed under Mindsight are changes from the Blindsense text. Normally, if text refers you to another section of text and says "as X" any exceptions are noted. This isn't always the case, however, sometimes it seems like the author of the referring text has not actually read the primary. This is not to say this is how I would like it to work, or what the author's intent was, simply that by the wording this is how it appears to function (or be dysfunctional). If only the authors of these weird sense special abilities and feats could be bothered to add: Functions as an emanation, functions as a spread, or functions over the listed area regardless of intervening cover. Game mechanics have been established, they just need to be used appropriately and consistently.
AntiDjinn 09-06-07, 04:57 AM	A similar problem pops up in the wording of the first level telepath power Mindlink. The range is: Close, and it doesn't mention not needing line of effect, so I would assume you need it to set up the power. Then it goes on to say: "Once the bond is formed, it works over any distance (although not from one plane to another)" So once it has been manifest the range is functionally infinite. The problem is, it doesn't say that line of effect is no longer required (although this is usually how it is played), only that it works over any distance. How lame is that? Infinite distance, but only if you could stretch a straight piece of string or shine a beam of light between the two. On a round planet eventually the curvature is going to cut off your line of effect. On the other hand, if line of effect is not an issue once the power is established and this is not noted as a change from the initial manifestation, then the implication is that LoE never was required. The way I handle Mindlink is once established the line of effect is regarded as infinitely thin (not a row of hexes) and it doesn't have to be a straight line. So long as any path can be mapped between the two points that does not have to cross a planar boundary, through a null psionic area, or through a material or effect that blocks scrying or communication, the impulse gets through. In other words, it works like a set of two-way radios: There is actually a path of travel that is confined to 3-dimensional space, but there does not have to be a straight unbroken line between the two (more accurately: The signal propagates in all directions but the information is only received at the point of your linked subject).
sijigs 09-06-07, 05:34 PM	A similar problem pops up in the wording of the first level telepath power Mindlink. The range is: Close, and it doesn't mention not needing line of effect, so I would assume you need it to set up the power. Then it goes on to say: "Once the bond is formed, it works over any distance (although not from one plane to another)" So once it has been manifest the range is functionally infinite. That's how my argument was formed on this matter. DM's call then?
AntiDjinn 09-06-07, 11:39 PM	DM's call with probably no wrong answer. The answer that is technically correct by the wording does not fit the description of how the ability is supposed to serve the one who has it. On the telepathy special ability (not the psionic discipline or psion Discipline) its effect is to facilitate communication, so I would really look at the nature of a barrier to determine if it blocks line of effect. Can you have a conversation from opposite sides of a curtain or painted screen? How about around a corner? Sure. It technically blocks line of effect (for effects that can't do damage to break through) but when the effect is having a conversation then all it blocks are body language and other visual cues. Can you have a conversation through a closed door? Yes, but not only are visual cues lost, but so is some degree of inflection and intonation because you are both having to shout. Telepathy should probably work, but with penalties to any social skills you are attempting (bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, etc.). Can you have a conversation through a 10 foot stone with someone who has been swallowed by a purple worm in the next room? Really, no. So telepathy would not enable you to chat the other person up (though a previously-established Mind Link would).
ShriekingDrake 06-07-08, 01:18 PM	I realize this is an decaying thread, but I have another thought to add here. Please note the relevant portion of the text from LoM quoted above: Benefit: A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. This works much like blindsense―the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the being still has total concealment unless the creature can see it by some other means. The text following the double-m dash is an appositive; it is meant to comment on or explain the noun or noun-phrase adjacent to it. The appositive here is explaining precisely how the mindsight feat is "much like" blindsense. Specifically, it is describing that, similar to blindsense, mindsight will not let the character know the exact location of the subject and that the subject can still benefit from total concealment. The scope of the similarity is established by the appositive here. It seems to me that all of this is actually meant to temper the author's use of the term "pinpoint" above, because the term "pinpoint" suggests a level of precision beyond the scope of what the author intended for the feat. To me there is little doubt that LoS and LoE are not required for this feat to operate. Tempest Stormwind's point is well taken here: Basically, the feat operates using the range of a special quality of variable range (mindbender 1 = 100', formian queen = miles, for instance), and that ability only cares about distance, not interposing obstacles. Thus, Mindsight -- the verbatim way -- doesn't need line of effect. Of course, if a DM wants to limit the ability--no problem. But I think the argument that this feat requires LoE is untenable. :cool: