Mistake in feat wording in Complete Divine? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mistake in feat wording in Complete Divine? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
briguybenwa
03-23-07, 01:04 PM I was looking to take some feats to help my plant domain cleric turn plant creatures, so I went to The Complete Divine. I found Quicken Turning and Empower Turning, and thought, cool, feats to help with turning. However, upon reading the text, these feats only apply to Undead turns. Now, when I look at the turning feats in PHB (improved turning, extra turning) they apply to ALL turning, not just undead turning. Did the developers of CD forget about us **other** turning clerics? Is there a chance these feats will be errated to include all turning, as the PHB feats do? Or are us plant turning clerics (fire, air, water, earth, too...) left out in the cold when it comes to improving our turning abilities??
DarkRhystar
03-23-07, 01:20 PM Your Cleric with the Plant Domain doesn't have a Turn Plant ability, it has the Plant Domain granted ability.

Improved Turning and Extra Turning give benefits to the Turn Undead ability, not Cleric domain abilities.

Since there is no errata for these feats, it's fairly certain they're working as intended.

If you don't like that, talk to your DM about a house rule.
Someone
03-23-07, 01:27 PM Actually, they do. Improved and Extra Turning mention if you turn or rebuke other creatures, you have extra or better turns/rebukes for the other creatures as well.

You sure the CD feats don't simply say "creatures"? That would cover turn/rebuke of undead, elementals, plants, etc. And I wouldn't have any problems with houseruling to that intent.
Nat_20
03-23-07, 01:36 PM Hahaha, thats a game i want to see

Fighter: Its a Dandy Loin, TURN IT TURN IT
Cleric: Stand back, i have this under control (Begins chanting and calling to deity)
silence...
Cleric: That thing has huge hit dice... RUN AWAY!!!!!!!
Wizard: If only Improved Turning worked with the Plant Domain
briguybenwa
03-23-07, 01:44 PM Yes, I'm sure the Complete Divine feats only say "Undead," and the PHB feats specify "whatever kind of turning you're using" (my words). That's what made me think WoTC had accidentally left something out when they wrote the CD feats.
CipherTheory
03-23-07, 01:53 PM I'd say this is an overight. How often does the cleric in an average game get to turn plants? How often do PCs generally encounter plant creatures anyway? Not often if everyone else's game is anything like mine (and my current campaign is set in a forest!).

My advice would be to ask your DM. This is always good advice for everything in generaly, mind you. Point out the wording discrepancy between the two sources, state your argument, and she what s/he says.

Speaking for myself; I'd allow it since plant/element turning are, usually, fairly minor abilities that see little enough use as is. I would not, however, allow Divine Metamagic to draw upon them.
paladin2019
03-23-07, 02:55 PM I think I remember 3E requiring each Extra Turning feat slot to be devoted to a specific type of creature the character could turn. It may have been a Defenders of the Faith clarification.

Does this apply to the 3.5 versions?
briguybenwa
03-23-07, 03:01 PM Hahaha, thats a game i want to see

Fighter: Its a Dandy Loin, TURN IT TURN IT
Cleric: Stand back, i have this under control (Begins chanting and calling to deity)
silence...
Cleric: That thing has huge hit dice... RUN AWAY!!!!!!!
Wizard: If only Improved Turning worked with the Plant Domain

Replace "Dandelion" with "Tendriculous" and that actually happened to our party once. Well, except for the wizard comment there....
Merestil Haye
03-23-07, 06:08 PM The answer to your question is no, there was no mistake. Divine feats are powered only by Turn Undead and no other Turning type.

It's amzing how frequently this question is asked...Can the turning abilities granted by the Air, Earth, Fire, Plant, and Water domains be used to power Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine, page 80) or other divine feats?

No. Unless stated otherwise, a divine feat requires (and may be powered only by) the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Some feats (such as Elemental Smiting, on page 81 of Complete Divine) use elemental turning (rather than undead turning); these are specific exceptions to the general rule.
briguybenwa
03-23-07, 06:36 PM The answer to your question is no, there was no mistake. Divine feats are powered only by Turn Undead and no other Turning type.

It's amazing how frequently this question is asked...

Thanks for the sarcasm. I wasn't asking if the mentioned feats were powered by the different types of turning attempts, I was asking if the feats could modify the use of the turning attempts. In other words, Quicken Turning and Empower Turning don't use turning attempts to do something else, they change the turning attempt itself. I also know that these two CD feats are worded to only modify undead turns, I was merely asking if this was an oversight, since similar PHB feats (Improved Turning, Extra Turning) do include different types of turning. Anyone know how to suggest errata to WoTC? Is there an email address, or somewhere on the WoTC site?
Mystic Theurge
03-23-07, 08:24 PM Fighter: Its a Dandy Loin, TURN IT TURN IT
Is the fighter homophobic, perhaps?
CharlesCurtisStanley
03-29-07, 07:48 PM Your 5th level (or higher) cleric or druid could take the Initiate of Nature feat from the Player's Guide to Faerun, which adds the ability to rebuke or control animals and plant creatures.
Archangel62
03-30-07, 01:43 AM My players would have wanted a cleric with the plant domain after the Greenvise battle...especially after the mage slayer was swallowed three times. I do remember him mentioning that from now on he is going to angrilly eat salads from now on.
liquidhypnotic
04-27-07, 01:45 AM I have pretty dandy loins, if I do say so myself. I also have a lot of dandelions growing in my front yard.

Merestil - missing the point FTW. Readied action - misinterpretation.

Unfortunately, though, responding to the actual question, it seems that yeah, you're screwed. I suppose it makes some sense, actually, to leave it like that, since elementals and whatnot aren't going to have access to things like Turn Resistance, or Unhallow, etc.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
briguybenwa 03-23-07, 01:04 PM	I was looking to take some feats to help my plant domain cleric turn plant creatures, so I went to The Complete Divine. I found Quicken Turning and Empower Turning, and thought, cool, feats to help with turning. However, upon reading the text, these feats only apply to Undead turns. Now, when I look at the turning feats in PHB (improved turning, extra turning) they apply to ALL turning, not just undead turning. Did the developers of CD forget about us other turning clerics? Is there a chance these feats will be errated to include all turning, as the PHB feats do? Or are us plant turning clerics (fire, air, water, earth, too...) left out in the cold when it comes to improving our turning abilities??
DarkRhystar 03-23-07, 01:20 PM	Your Cleric with the Plant Domain doesn't have a Turn Plant ability, it has the Plant Domain granted ability. Improved Turning and Extra Turning give benefits to the Turn Undead ability, not Cleric domain abilities. Since there is no errata for these feats, it's fairly certain they're working as intended. If you don't like that, talk to your DM about a house rule.
Someone 03-23-07, 01:27 PM	Actually, they do. Improved and Extra Turning mention if you turn or rebuke other creatures, you have extra or better turns/rebukes for the other creatures as well. You sure the CD feats don't simply say "creatures"? That would cover turn/rebuke of undead, elementals, plants, etc. And I wouldn't have any problems with houseruling to that intent.
Nat_20 03-23-07, 01:36 PM	Hahaha, thats a game i want to see Fighter: Its a Dandy Loin, TURN IT TURN IT Cleric: Stand back, i have this under control (Begins chanting and calling to deity) silence... Cleric: That thing has huge hit dice... RUN AWAY!!!!!!! Wizard: If only Improved Turning worked with the Plant Domain
briguybenwa 03-23-07, 01:44 PM	Yes, I'm sure the Complete Divine feats only say "Undead," and the PHB feats specify "whatever kind of turning you're using" (my words). That's what made me think WoTC had accidentally left something out when they wrote the CD feats.
CipherTheory 03-23-07, 01:53 PM	I'd say this is an overight. How often does the cleric in an average game get to turn plants? How often do PCs generally encounter plant creatures anyway? Not often if everyone else's game is anything like mine (and my current campaign is set in a forest!). My advice would be to ask your DM. This is always good advice for everything in generaly, mind you. Point out the wording discrepancy between the two sources, state your argument, and she what s/he says. Speaking for myself; I'd allow it since plant/element turning are, usually, fairly minor abilities that see little enough use as is. I would not, however, allow Divine Metamagic to draw upon them.
paladin2019 03-23-07, 02:55 PM	I think I remember 3E requiring each Extra Turning feat slot to be devoted to a specific type of creature the character could turn. It may have been a Defenders of the Faith clarification. Does this apply to the 3.5 versions?
briguybenwa 03-23-07, 03:01 PM	Hahaha, thats a game i want to see Fighter: Its a Dandy Loin, TURN IT TURN IT Cleric: Stand back, i have this under control (Begins chanting and calling to deity) silence... Cleric: That thing has huge hit dice... RUN AWAY!!!!!!! Wizard: If only Improved Turning worked with the Plant Domain Replace "Dandelion" with "Tendriculous" and that actually happened to our party once. Well, except for the wizard comment there....
Merestil Haye 03-23-07, 06:08 PM	The answer to your question is no, there was no mistake. Divine feats are powered only by Turn Undead and no other Turning type. It's amzing how frequently this question is asked...Can the turning abilities granted by the Air, Earth, Fire, Plant, and Water domains be used to power Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine, page 80) or other divine feats? No. Unless stated otherwise, a divine feat requires (and may be powered only by) the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Some feats (such as Elemental Smiting, on page 81 of Complete Divine) use elemental turning (rather than undead turning); these are specific exceptions to the general rule.
briguybenwa 03-23-07, 06:36 PM	The answer to your question is no, there was no mistake. Divine feats are powered only by Turn Undead and no other Turning type. It's amazing how frequently this question is asked... Thanks for the sarcasm. I wasn't asking if the mentioned feats were powered by the different types of turning attempts, I was asking if the feats could modify the use of the turning attempts. In other words, Quicken Turning and Empower Turning don't use turning attempts to do something else, they change the turning attempt itself. I also know that these two CD feats are worded to only modify undead turns, I was merely asking if this was an oversight, since similar PHB feats (Improved Turning, Extra Turning) do include different types of turning. Anyone know how to suggest errata to WoTC? Is there an email address, or somewhere on the WoTC site?
Mystic Theurge 03-23-07, 08:24 PM	Fighter: Its a Dandy Loin, TURN IT TURN IT Is the fighter homophobic, perhaps?
CharlesCurtisStanley 03-29-07, 07:48 PM	Your 5th level (or higher) cleric or druid could take the Initiate of Nature feat from the Player's Guide to Faerun, which adds the ability to rebuke or control animals and plant creatures.
Archangel62 03-30-07, 01:43 AM	My players would have wanted a cleric with the plant domain after the Greenvise battle...especially after the mage slayer was swallowed three times. I do remember him mentioning that from now on he is going to angrilly eat salads from now on.
liquidhypnotic 04-27-07, 01:45 AM	I have pretty dandy loins, if I do say so myself. I also have a lot of dandelions growing in my front yard. Merestil - missing the point FTW. Readied action - misinterpretation. Unfortunately, though, responding to the actual question, it seems that yeah, you're screwed. I suppose it makes some sense, actually, to leave it like that, since elementals and whatnot aren't going to have access to things like Turn Resistance, or Unhallow, etc.