Mithral Armor & Heavy Armor Optimization [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mithral Armor & Heavy Armor Optimization [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thrax
03-28-07, 01:00 AM One of my players has a fighter with a dex score of 16 and he currently is wearing mithral fullplate. At the next lvl up, he has expressed a desire to take up Heavy Armor Optimization (Races Of Stone), claiming that mithral makes the fullplate count as medium armor for "movement, proficiency, and limitations." Since the feat is none of those, does it apply, or is it exempt? I thank you all in advance for your reply.

Matt Jackson
runestar
03-28-07, 01:09 AM The faq advocates that mithral fullplate should be treated as medium armour for all purposes, both good and bad. This would mean that you cannot take heavy armour opt for it.:(

Note that it also mentions this is also open to debate, since the DMG was quite vague on the issue.
paladin2019
03-28-07, 02:01 AM One of my players has a fighter with a dex score of 16 and he currently is wearing mithral fullplate. At the next lvl up, he has expressed a desire to take up Heavy Armor Optimization (Races Of Stone), claiming that mithral makes the fullplate count as medium armor for "movement, proficiency, and limitations." Since the feat is none of those, does it apply, or is it exempt? I thank you all in advance for your reply.

Matt Jackson

As I read the item description in the SRD (the DMG may be different), movement and limitations are the only items that treat the armor as lighter. If proficiency and category are considered "limitations", an undefined rules term, then I don't see anything that modifies heavy armor as applying. If these are not, then I see this feat applying.

The second option means mithral fullplate is still a heavy armor and still requires Armor Proficiency (Heavy) to use effectively. However, as the specific mithral armors specificly say they are treated as the appropriate lighter category, I would assume this latter option is incorrect and the FAQ is in keeping with the intent of RAW.
TheClance
03-28-07, 04:33 AM Races of the Wild lists mithral full plate as medium armour.
Pandaemoni
03-28-07, 04:35 AM Your player might take full plate +X of Nimbleness. Nimbleness is a +1 enhancement from Magic of Faerun that increases an armor's max dex by 2 and reduces armor check penalties by 1.

Unless he's trying to reduce the ASF or is very sensitive to armor check penalties, that is.
Garonak
03-28-07, 07:18 AM Your player might take full plate +X of Nimbleness. Nimbleness is a +1 enhancement from Magic of Faerun that increases an armor's max dex by 2 and reduces armor check penalties by 1.

Unless he's trying to reduce the ASF or is very sensitive to armor check penalties, that is.

Seconed

Specially since heavy armor opt and its greater version lowers the acp with 3 (total for both feats).
Adamantine Fullplate with 1 in acp is pretty neat...
GorTeX
03-28-07, 08:13 AM The new Magic Item Comp. lists mithral as 'Treated as one category lighter for Movement, Profieciency, and other limitations.'

Why they can't just say "Mithral armor IS one category lighter for all purposes (you can't get lighter than light armor)" or something similar is beyond me.

As it is, you can argue (and I often do) that for all other purposes, the armor retains it's classification, so HAO and GHAO (as well as some class abilities such as the Battlesmith's Sacred AC bonus) work on Mithral Heavy Armors.
Thrax
03-28-07, 09:48 AM Races of the Wild lists mithral full plate as medium armour.

Thanks, I had never noticed this before. There is my answer. Also Garonak, the adamintine idea is pretty cool. I will throw a suit of adamintine full plate with the nimbleness quality in the next horde they find and let the fighter pick which one he wants, mithral or adamantine.
Thanks for all of your help guys (and girls)
Matt Jackson
Tectorman
03-28-07, 10:35 AM This has little to do with the subject at hand, but in Races of Stone, there exists a type of heavy armor (either battle plate or mountain plate, not sure which) which remains heavy armor even when made of mithril. In such cases, the armor has an improved max Dex bonus, a lesser Armor check penalty, and it weighs less. Other than that, the armor is unaffected (please note: I do not have Races of Stone out in front of me and could very easily be wrong).

That said, I agree with the above comment advocating that this issue is not set in stone, but is open to debate. If all else fails, flip a coin: heads, HAO can be used with mithril full plate, tails, it can't.
tarkin
03-28-07, 10:48 AM The original PHB was clear to me that Mithral armro was still the same category, it just had certain very few abilities that needed to be treated as if it were one category less.

Then the FAQ came out and blatantly said the opposite.

Because the FAQ clearly contradicts what the PHB says, in my opinion, you need to either

A. Go with the "It is one category lighter for all purposes" view.

or

B. Stick with the original PHB words, and have it not really change the category.

If you go with A, then Barbarians can use Mithral Full Plate without having to take the feat Heavy Armor Proficiency, but you could not use Heavy Armor Optimization with Mithral Full Plate.

If you go with B, then you can use HAO with Mithral Full Plate, but Barbarians are not proficient with Mithral Full Plate unless they spend a feat.

------

Allow both to work seems contradictory to me.
NoldorForce
03-28-07, 03:07 PM See, this is why you should not bring up mithral armor here; endless posting occurs without much consensus. It's like a katana thread in this respect. :)

@ tarkin: The DMG actually established what mithral did, not the PHB. Its text stated that mithral changed the category "for purposes of movement and other limitations". Such was somewhat unclear; what other limitations applied? Thus the FAQ didn't contradict this, but rather clarified a vague rule in stating that it changed things for the purpose of proficiency. The point has been made moot by the Magic Item Compendium, which explicitly mentions that proficiency is one of the things for which mithral makes armor lighter. Additionally, several books (including the DMG) have set the precedent that mithral makes armor lighter for all purposes by mentioning mithral breastplates, chainmail, and full plate (all of which are lighter).
warbird106
03-28-07, 07:22 PM If I was DM, (which I am not), I would make the mithral fullplate's acp, mdb, and speed the same as the heaviest medium armor. In other words, you are taking the armor down a notch.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thrax 03-28-07, 01:00 AM	One of my players has a fighter with a dex score of 16 and he currently is wearing mithral fullplate. At the next lvl up, he has expressed a desire to take up Heavy Armor Optimization (Races Of Stone), claiming that mithral makes the fullplate count as medium armor for "movement, proficiency, and limitations." Since the feat is none of those, does it apply, or is it exempt? I thank you all in advance for your reply. Matt Jackson
runestar 03-28-07, 01:09 AM	The faq advocates that mithral fullplate should be treated as medium armour for all purposes, both good and bad. This would mean that you cannot take heavy armour opt for it.:( Note that it also mentions this is also open to debate, since the DMG was quite vague on the issue.
paladin2019 03-28-07, 02:01 AM	One of my players has a fighter with a dex score of 16 and he currently is wearing mithral fullplate. At the next lvl up, he has expressed a desire to take up Heavy Armor Optimization (Races Of Stone), claiming that mithral makes the fullplate count as medium armor for "movement, proficiency, and limitations." Since the feat is none of those, does it apply, or is it exempt? I thank you all in advance for your reply. Matt Jackson As I read the item description in the SRD (the DMG may be different), movement and limitations are the only items that treat the armor as lighter. If proficiency and category are considered "limitations", an undefined rules term, then I don't see anything that modifies heavy armor as applying. If these are not, then I see this feat applying. The second option means mithral fullplate is still a heavy armor and still requires Armor Proficiency (Heavy) to use effectively. However, as the specific mithral armors specificly say they are treated as the appropriate lighter category, I would assume this latter option is incorrect and the FAQ is in keeping with the intent of RAW.
TheClance 03-28-07, 04:33 AM	Races of the Wild lists mithral full plate as medium armour.
Pandaemoni 03-28-07, 04:35 AM	Your player might take full plate +X of Nimbleness. Nimbleness is a +1 enhancement from Magic of Faerun that increases an armor's max dex by 2 and reduces armor check penalties by 1. Unless he's trying to reduce the ASF or is very sensitive to armor check penalties, that is.
Garonak 03-28-07, 07:18 AM	Your player might take full plate +X of Nimbleness. Nimbleness is a +1 enhancement from Magic of Faerun that increases an armor's max dex by 2 and reduces armor check penalties by 1. Unless he's trying to reduce the ASF or is very sensitive to armor check penalties, that is. Seconed Specially since heavy armor opt and its greater version lowers the acp with 3 (total for both feats). Adamantine Fullplate with 1 in acp is pretty neat...
GorTeX 03-28-07, 08:13 AM	The new Magic Item Comp. lists mithral as 'Treated as one category lighter for Movement, Profieciency, and other limitations.' Why they can't just say "Mithral armor IS one category lighter for all purposes (you can't get lighter than light armor)" or something similar is beyond me. As it is, you can argue (and I often do) that for all other purposes, the armor retains it's classification, so HAO and GHAO (as well as some class abilities such as the Battlesmith's Sacred AC bonus) work on Mithral Heavy Armors.
Thrax 03-28-07, 09:48 AM	Races of the Wild lists mithral full plate as medium armour. Thanks, I had never noticed this before. There is my answer. Also Garonak, the adamintine idea is pretty cool. I will throw a suit of adamintine full plate with the nimbleness quality in the next horde they find and let the fighter pick which one he wants, mithral or adamantine. Thanks for all of your help guys (and girls) Matt Jackson
Tectorman 03-28-07, 10:35 AM	This has little to do with the subject at hand, but in Races of Stone, there exists a type of heavy armor (either battle plate or mountain plate, not sure which) which remains heavy armor even when made of mithril. In such cases, the armor has an improved max Dex bonus, a lesser Armor check penalty, and it weighs less. Other than that, the armor is unaffected (please note: I do not have Races of Stone out in front of me and could very easily be wrong). That said, I agree with the above comment advocating that this issue is not set in stone, but is open to debate. If all else fails, flip a coin: heads, HAO can be used with mithril full plate, tails, it can't.
tarkin 03-28-07, 10:48 AM	The original PHB was clear to me that Mithral armro was still the same category, it just had certain very few abilities that needed to be treated as if it were one category less. Then the FAQ came out and blatantly said the opposite. Because the FAQ clearly contradicts what the PHB says, in my opinion, you need to either A. Go with the "It is one category lighter for all purposes" view. or B. Stick with the original PHB words, and have it not really change the category. If you go with A, then Barbarians can use Mithral Full Plate without having to take the feat Heavy Armor Proficiency, but you could not use Heavy Armor Optimization with Mithral Full Plate. If you go with B, then you can use HAO with Mithral Full Plate, but Barbarians are not proficient with Mithral Full Plate unless they spend a feat. ------ Allow both to work seems contradictory to me.
NoldorForce 03-28-07, 03:07 PM	See, this is why you should not bring up mithral armor here; endless posting occurs without much consensus. It's like a katana thread in this respect. :) @ tarkin: The DMG actually established what mithral did, not the PHB. Its text stated that mithral changed the category "for purposes of movement and other limitations". Such was somewhat unclear; what other limitations applied? Thus the FAQ didn't contradict this, but rather clarified a vague rule in stating that it changed things for the purpose of proficiency. The point has been made moot by the Magic Item Compendium, which explicitly mentions that proficiency is one of the things for which mithral makes armor lighter. Additionally, several books (including the DMG) have set the precedent that mithral makes armor lighter for all purposes by mentioning mithral breastplates, chainmail, and full plate (all of which are lighter).
warbird106 03-28-07, 07:22 PM	If I was DM, (which I am not), I would make the mithral fullplate's acp, mdb, and speed the same as the heaviest medium armor. In other words, you are taking the armor down a notch.