Mithril Crafting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mithril Crafting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
clerkjester
03-29-08, 01:21 AM My group and I have recently come into a discussion on how you craft mithril armor seeing that there are no rules in any book that we could find.

According to the DMG (p284) there is an item cost modifier, but when is that taken into effect during the crafting process, seeing that it is the masterwork component.

Please help and please give books and pages to back up arguments. (Only way to satisfy the whole group :P) Examples never hurt either. FYI we are trying to make a Mithril Chain Shirt.

C-Jester
ciaran
03-29-08, 01:58 AM The Mithril Shirt costs 1150 GP. The DC for the armor is 14 regardless of materials or craftsmanship. Your progress (represented in coin) is the DC multiplied by your successful check. Say if your avarage craft check came out to 20, you're looking at 280 gp worth or progress per week. It would take just over four weeks. You could set the DC higher but in the current ruleset the difficulty is represented by the amount of time it takes to finish it.
clerkjester
03-29-08, 02:35 AM First off, thank you for your response, and According to Crystal Keep the base cost of a Mithril Chain Shirt is 1100. Here (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-MagicItems-WeaponsArmor.pdf)

Second, to craft something you must take the base cost of the item and convert it to Silver Pieces. So that Mithril chain shirt would then cost(for the purposes of crafting) would be 11,000sp.(PHB pg70) So its craft time would be 39.2 weeeks. (as per your average 20 check)

Our problem becomes, when is the cost of the mithril considered (sorry if I was not clear on this) for crafting because, Mithril is a special material and is always considered masterwork. Masterwork components are a separate check at a DC 20, not the base item DC 14.

If the material does not matter, than shouldn't we just pay the cost of the mithril (284g), and make a masterwork chain shirt as per normal?

C-Jester
StevenO
03-29-08, 02:18 PM When crafting with special materials (adamantine, mithral, gold,...) I'd always base the crafting cost on the base item and include the FULL cost of the material. To craft a Mithral Chain shirt I'd charge 35gp to cover the construction plus 1000gp to cover the mithral. When figuring the time requirement I would base that on a 1/3 discount on the mithral.

If you don't charge the full value for special materials why wouldn't I just turn out gold pieces that when in only take 1/3 the material cost to make one?
LSMFT
03-29-08, 02:42 PM The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20.

Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.

I would say that, of the 1100 gp for a mithral chainshirt, only 150 of that is at the masterwork rate, and the remaining 950 is not.
Kouk
03-30-08, 07:51 AM A Mithral Chain Shirt is 1100gp. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#specificArmors

Note that the special armor given in the DMG is actually lighter than formulas would indicate for making a Chain Shirt with Mithral.

Here is the fairly complicated answer from the FAQ:
On page 217 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide, it states
that “the cost of the masterwork quality and any magical
enhancement remains the same” regardless of a creature’s
unusual size or shape. Adamantine and mithral both state
that items made from such material are masterwork quality
and the masterwork cost is part of the material cost listed.
How much would a set of mithral chainmail barding for my
warhorse cost?
A strict reading of the rules indicates that in such a case the
masterwork cost for armor should be subtracted from the
special material price before applying the multiplier for any
unusual size or shape of the intended wearer.
For example, according to the Armor for Unusual Creatures
chart on page 123 of the Player’s Handbook, a set of chainmail
barding for a warhorse (a Large nonhumanoid creature) would
normally cost 600 gp (four times the normal cost of 150 gp). A
set of mithral chainmail barding would cost 16,000 gp: 600 gp
for the chainmail barding plus 15,400 gp (the cost of mithral
medium armor [4,000 gp], minus the masterwork cost for
armor [150 gp], times 4).

Personally, here are my house rules on the issue because Crafting is kind of undeveloped and nearly useless for PCs (given the time requirements).

In my games, Crafting with special materials takes the same amount of time as Crafting with "normal" materials. A Mithral Breastplate takes the same amount of time to make as a Masterwork Breastplate.

However, the costs for the Mithral Breastplate are higher than they would be for a normal Masterwork Breastplate.

The normal Masterwork Breastplate costs the price of a Breastplate (200gp) plus the cost of the Masterwork Component (150gp) for a total of 350gp, and the crafter pays one third of that in materials (~116gp 7sp). Crafting should be somewhere around a week or two, if they are good.

The Mithral Breastplate will cost the price of a Breastplate (200gp), plus the price of Mithral Medium Armor (4000gp), to equal 4,200gp. The crafter pays one third of that for 1400gp. However, since we use the crafting time of a normal Masterwork Breastplate, he is still done in a week or two.

My logic for this is that:
1. Making something Masterwork is DC 20. Practically all special materials include the cost of Masterwork, and gain Masterwork bonuses in addition to their "special" effects (see the Adamantine description). This means that anyone in the world who can hit a DC 20 is already capable of making things out of Mithral or Adamantine just as well as steel -- it just may take a while if he can't reliably make high checks.

2. Because making Masterwork components is already DC 20, and that is the DC you would have to hit for crafting special materials (they are always masterwork), then that implies they are about as difficult to make as normal Masterwork, at least in terms of getting it to grant benefits (such as +1 to attacks or -1 ACP).

3. Special materials are harder/stronger/lighter whatever. What inherently should make it take much longer to deal with? If you can melt iron, make steel and shape it when it's hot, why can't you just adjust temperatures and tools to function for Mithral? Perhaps part of the costs of crafting Mithral takes into account hotter-burning fuel for the forge, special protection from the heat, and various alchemical supplies which can aid a blacksmith.

4. Crafting with special materials and taking into account their prices in determining the amount of time required leads to ridiculous amounts of time required. So much time required it is virtually impossible for a PC to commission an expert (or team of experts) to make one for him in any kind of usable timeframe, let alone the PC trying to Craft it by himself if you use the price increase to dictate time requirements.

5. Crafting magic items or enchanting them doesn't care at all what the materials are, unless it is Cold Iron. The time requirement is always the same as a function of GP cost.

The main determinant of Crafting things (I feel) should be the difficulty (DCs) and the costs (GP). Any time requirement of more than a day or two offsets the cheaper price. Spending extra time for special materials is not worth it, especially for an adventurer who could be out raiding dungeons and getting enough loot to buy whatever he needs anyway.
StevenO
03-30-08, 02:49 PM A...
The Mithral Breastplate will cost the price of a Breastplate (200gp), plus the price of Mithral Medium Armor (4000gp), to equal 4,200gp. The crafter pays one third of that for 1400gp. However, since we use the crafting time of a normal Masterwork Breastplate, he is still done in a week or two.

Can I make 3 gp with only 1 gp in materials? That would seem like way to increase the amount of a fixed material.
Kouk
03-30-08, 05:16 PM Can I make 3 gp with only 1 gp in materials? That would seem like way to increase the amount of a fixed material.

Why are you obsessed with "crafting" raw gold pieces? Are you making some kind of comment that you think crafting is too cheap as it is? You have to pay for time and labor in most products ya know, not to mention shipping and handling in many cases. The person making the item is presumably not going to charge himself for his own time and labor.

Gold pieces are the baseline for pretty much everything. It doesn't make much sense that you could "Craft" genuine gold coins (which are almost certainly valuable based on the amount of gold in them) with less gold.

I believe it is assumed that "real" coins are produced by governments rather than any old guy with a hunk of gold. They produce the coins as part of being a government which desires commerce, and would imprint them with relevant symbols and such that denote it as a real coin.

I suspect you could however, use less gold than required in conjunction with the Forgery skill, and mint counterfeit coins. I would encourage DMs to not allow you to do that (for very long :devil:) because that is clearly a bad idea from a game standpoint.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clerkjester 03-29-08, 01:21 AM	My group and I have recently come into a discussion on how you craft mithril armor seeing that there are no rules in any book that we could find. According to the DMG (p284) there is an item cost modifier, but when is that taken into effect during the crafting process, seeing that it is the masterwork component. Please help and please give books and pages to back up arguments. (Only way to satisfy the whole group :P) Examples never hurt either. FYI we are trying to make a Mithril Chain Shirt. C-Jester
ciaran 03-29-08, 01:58 AM	The Mithril Shirt costs 1150 GP. The DC for the armor is 14 regardless of materials or craftsmanship. Your progress (represented in coin) is the DC multiplied by your successful check. Say if your avarage craft check came out to 20, you're looking at 280 gp worth or progress per week. It would take just over four weeks. You could set the DC higher but in the current ruleset the difficulty is represented by the amount of time it takes to finish it.
clerkjester 03-29-08, 02:35 AM	First off, thank you for your response, and According to Crystal Keep the base cost of a Mithril Chain Shirt is 1100. Here (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-MagicItems-WeaponsArmor.pdf) Second, to craft something you must take the base cost of the item and convert it to Silver Pieces. So that Mithril chain shirt would then cost(for the purposes of crafting) would be 11,000sp.(PHB pg70) So its craft time would be 39.2 weeeks. (as per your average 20 check) Our problem becomes, when is the cost of the mithril considered (sorry if I was not clear on this) for crafting because, Mithril is a special material and is always considered masterwork. Masterwork components are a separate check at a DC 20, not the base item DC 14. If the material does not matter, than shouldn't we just pay the cost of the mithril (284g), and make a masterwork chain shirt as per normal? C-Jester
StevenO 03-29-08, 02:18 PM	When crafting with special materials (adamantine, mithral, gold,...) I'd always base the crafting cost on the base item and include the FULL cost of the material. To craft a Mithral Chain shirt I'd charge 35gp to cover the construction plus 1000gp to cover the mithral. When figuring the time requirement I would base that on a 1/3 discount on the mithral. If you don't charge the full value for special materials why wouldn't I just turn out gold pieces that when in only take 1/3 the material cost to make one?
LSMFT 03-29-08, 02:42 PM	The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. I would say that, of the 1100 gp for a mithral chainshirt, only 150 of that is at the masterwork rate, and the remaining 950 is not.
Kouk 03-30-08, 07:51 AM	A Mithral Chain Shirt is 1100gp. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#specificArmors Note that the special armor given in the DMG is actually lighter than formulas would indicate for making a Chain Shirt with Mithral. Here is the fairly complicated answer from the FAQ: On page 217 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide, it states that “the cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same” regardless of a creature’s unusual size or shape. Adamantine and mithral both state that items made from such material are masterwork quality and the masterwork cost is part of the material cost listed. How much would a set of mithral chainmail barding for my warhorse cost? A strict reading of the rules indicates that in such a case the masterwork cost for armor should be subtracted from the special material price before applying the multiplier for any unusual size or shape of the intended wearer. For example, according to the Armor for Unusual Creatures chart on page 123 of the Player’s Handbook, a set of chainmail barding for a warhorse (a Large nonhumanoid creature) would normally cost 600 gp (four times the normal cost of 150 gp). A set of mithral chainmail barding would cost 16,000 gp: 600 gp for the chainmail barding plus 15,400 gp (the cost of mithral medium armor [4,000 gp], minus the masterwork cost for armor [150 gp], times 4). Personally, here are my house rules on the issue because Crafting is kind of undeveloped and nearly useless for PCs (given the time requirements). In my games, Crafting with special materials takes the same amount of time as Crafting with "normal" materials. A Mithral Breastplate takes the same amount of time to make as a Masterwork Breastplate. However, the costs for the Mithral Breastplate are higher than they would be for a normal Masterwork Breastplate. The normal Masterwork Breastplate costs the price of a Breastplate (200gp) plus the cost of the Masterwork Component (150gp) for a total of 350gp, and the crafter pays one third of that in materials (~116gp 7sp). Crafting should be somewhere around a week or two, if they are good. The Mithral Breastplate will cost the price of a Breastplate (200gp), plus the price of Mithral Medium Armor (4000gp), to equal 4,200gp. The crafter pays one third of that for 1400gp. However, since we use the crafting time of a normal Masterwork Breastplate, he is still done in a week or two. My logic for this is that: 1. Making something Masterwork is DC 20. Practically all special materials include the cost of Masterwork, and gain Masterwork bonuses in addition to their "special" effects (see the Adamantine description). This means that anyone in the world who can hit a DC 20 is already capable of making things out of Mithral or Adamantine just as well as steel -- it just may take a while if he can't reliably make high checks. 2. Because making Masterwork components is already DC 20, and that is the DC you would have to hit for crafting special materials (they are always masterwork), then that implies they are about as difficult to make as normal Masterwork, at least in terms of getting it to grant benefits (such as +1 to attacks or -1 ACP). 3. Special materials are harder/stronger/lighter whatever. What inherently should make it take much longer to deal with? If you can melt iron, make steel and shape it when it's hot, why can't you just adjust temperatures and tools to function for Mithral? Perhaps part of the costs of crafting Mithral takes into account hotter-burning fuel for the forge, special protection from the heat, and various alchemical supplies which can aid a blacksmith. 4. Crafting with special materials and taking into account their prices in determining the amount of time required leads to ridiculous amounts of time required. So much time required it is virtually impossible for a PC to commission an expert (or team of experts) to make one for him in any kind of usable timeframe, let alone the PC trying to Craft it by himself if you use the price increase to dictate time requirements. 5. Crafting magic items or enchanting them doesn't care at all what the materials are, unless it is Cold Iron. The time requirement is always the same as a function of GP cost. The main determinant of Crafting things (I feel) should be the difficulty (DCs) and the costs (GP). Any time requirement of more than a day or two offsets the cheaper price. Spending extra time for special materials is not worth it, especially for an adventurer who could be out raiding dungeons and getting enough loot to buy whatever he needs anyway.
StevenO 03-30-08, 02:49 PM	A... The Mithral Breastplate will cost the price of a Breastplate (200gp), plus the price of Mithral Medium Armor (4000gp), to equal 4,200gp. The crafter pays one third of that for 1400gp. However, since we use the crafting time of a normal Masterwork Breastplate, he is still done in a week or two. Can I make 3 gp with only 1 gp in materials? That would seem like way to increase the amount of a fixed material.
Kouk 03-30-08, 05:16 PM	Can I make 3 gp with only 1 gp in materials? That would seem like way to increase the amount of a fixed material. Why are you obsessed with "crafting" raw gold pieces? Are you making some kind of comment that you think crafting is too cheap as it is? You have to pay for time and labor in most products ya know, not to mention shipping and handling in many cases. The person making the item is presumably not going to charge himself for his own time and labor. Gold pieces are the baseline for pretty much everything. It doesn't make much sense that you could "Craft" genuine gold coins (which are almost certainly valuable based on the amount of gold in them) with less gold. I believe it is assumed that "real" coins are produced by governments rather than any old guy with a hunk of gold. They produce the coins as part of being a government which desires commerce, and would imprint them with relevant symbols and such that denote it as a real coin. I suspect you could however, use less gold than required in conjunction with the Forgery skill, and mint counterfeit coins. I would encourage DMs to not allow you to do that (for very long :devil:) because that is clearly a bad idea from a game standpoint.