mob IDing with knowledge X [Archive] - Wizards Community

mob IDing with knowledge X [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tygreen101
10-05-07, 08:53 PM I'm trying to use knowledge (X) to have players see how much they know about different mobs. but I haven't found any thing on DCs for it. yes, it's easy to say something like a normal animal would be knowledge nature with a DC (10 + animals HD). but sometimes knowledge arcana would be better like with a displacer beast. and knowledge planes should be used for outsiders. what do you guys use?
bkdubs123
10-05-07, 09:31 PM Do you have a copy of Heroes of Horror, or have you ever heard of the Archivist class? It uses a set of rules very similar that you could easily adapt for a house rule that everyone could use (all classes, I mean).

There is also Knowledge Devotion in Complete Champion which does something similar.

I'm kind of bad to be giving advice out like this, because I don't have any hard rules or numbers, I just improvise on the fly, but I read the monsters' descriptions and attacks, and I scale information on more common monsters, on expected attacks and abilities of monsters, and on the more obscure facts and powers of monsters appropriately for the situation. All of this is rather dependant on the campaign however. If dragons are rare at best in your campaign world, then a Knowledge (Arcana) check to identify its breath weapon would be much more difficult than in your typical D&D world.
Undadmoon
10-06-07, 12:03 AM Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)

...

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

That's from the SRD. In other words, your method is actual way to do it.
Kouk
10-06-07, 04:39 AM That's from the SRD. In other words, your method is actual way to do it.

And the same information is listed under the normal Knowledge skill description in the PHB, page 78.

The core way is that most DCs are 10 + monster's HD, but I prefer the method presented in the MM5 (maybe it is in 4 also, but I didn't buy that) which goes for setting DCs at 10 + monster's CR rating.

Neither methods really account for issues of campaign "rarity" of certain creatures, the DM should determine how difficult or easy identifying a creature would be in his campaign.
ShinAkuma2
10-06-07, 01:28 PM You just have to be careful sometimes when it involves class levels. Otherwise, you get situations where a character can identify a Mind Flayer, for example, but not the Mind Flayer Sorcerer right next to him, just because the Sorc has additional HD.

You have to use your DM judgement on what HD should really count.
Kayli
10-06-07, 02:24 PM I use CR rather then HD because some things have much higher HD then other monster with the same CR.

You just have to be careful sometimes when it involves class levels. Otherwise, you get situations where a character can identify a Mind Flayer, for example, but not the Mind Flayer Sorcerer right next to him, just because the Sorc has additional HD.

You have to use your DM judgement on what HD should really count.

In a situation like this, i use the base CR of the creature to identify what creature is, then the players are free to make a spot check to determine that it has spell components or such that might give away that it has class lvl's to boot.

or, once they have id'd the creature, and it uses spells, I might let them make an other knowledge check to see if they know that members of that race don't normally have access to the spell used.

determining class, and or class lvl's is not a knoweldge check, so I leave those out of the equation when pc's are trying to id a creature.
Mojo_Rat
10-06-07, 02:48 PM I hope saying this doesnt come off Mean. But the thread title Brings up something that drives me nuts.

So heres the thing Monsters are not MOBS Unless fiting some normal convention of the word such as a representative of an organized criminal group Or a large gathering of people.

It stands for Mobile Object, Which is in no ay applicable to Tabletop dungeons and Dragons (and wont even be when the online stuff comes on) The Only time Its applicable is in a computer game where an Ai is making all the decisions.
Mojo_Rat
10-06-07, 02:52 PM And so my previous post isnt a thread derailment since the op had an actual good question. Really i would decide how 'rare' the monster is and set your DC's from there. Challenge rating doesnt equate to how rare a creature is. Things like Beholders and Mind flayers while not being super common are Iconic enough to their enviroments that if you have knowledge monster or underground or other suitable knowledge skills knowing of their existance and roughlly what they look like would be reasonable. Actual knowing he powers probly harder. But i think its all Dm discretion the DC checks.
tygreen101
10-06-07, 10:10 PM I hope saying this doesnt come off Mean. But the thread title Brings up something that drives me nuts.

So heres the thing Monsters are not MOBS Unless fiting some normal convention of the word such as a representative of an organized criminal group Or a large gathering of people.

It stands for Mobile Object, Which is in no ay applicable to Tabletop dungeons and Dragons (and wont even be when the online stuff comes on) The Only time Its applicable is in a computer game where an Ai is making all the decisions.

you are 100% correct. personally I have played both table top and MMORPGs for so long that I blur things sometimes. I just generically call them all mobs. and my gaming group all plays some kind of MMORPG so my calling them all mobs works. so it furthers my own incorrectness by being acceptable to call everything a mob. eh.. I'll try to proofread a little better next time and think of my audience a little better.

but, there has been A LOT of good info in this thread. thank you. it's good to think that I'm doing something correctly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tygreen101 10-05-07, 08:53 PM	I'm trying to use knowledge (X) to have players see how much they know about different mobs. but I haven't found any thing on DCs for it. yes, it's easy to say something like a normal animal would be knowledge nature with a DC (10 + animals HD). but sometimes knowledge arcana would be better like with a displacer beast. and knowledge planes should be used for outsiders. what do you guys use?
bkdubs123 10-05-07, 09:31 PM	Do you have a copy of Heroes of Horror, or have you ever heard of the Archivist class? It uses a set of rules very similar that you could easily adapt for a house rule that everyone could use (all classes, I mean). There is also Knowledge Devotion in Complete Champion which does something similar. I'm kind of bad to be giving advice out like this, because I don't have any hard rules or numbers, I just improvise on the fly, but I read the monsters' descriptions and attacks, and I scale information on more common monsters, on expected attacks and abilities of monsters, and on the more obscure facts and powers of monsters appropriately for the situation. All of this is rather dependant on the campaign however. If dragons are rare at best in your campaign world, then a Knowledge (Arcana) check to identify its breath weapon would be much more difficult than in your typical D&D world.
Undadmoon 10-06-07, 12:03 AM	Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts) Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications) Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking) Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people) History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities) Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids) Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin) Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities) Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead) The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes) ... In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. That's from the SRD. In other words, your method is actual way to do it.
Kouk 10-06-07, 04:39 AM	That's from the SRD. In other words, your method is actual way to do it. And the same information is listed under the normal Knowledge skill description in the PHB, page 78. The core way is that most DCs are 10 + monster's HD, but I prefer the method presented in the MM5 (maybe it is in 4 also, but I didn't buy that) which goes for setting DCs at 10 + monster's CR rating. Neither methods really account for issues of campaign "rarity" of certain creatures, the DM should determine how difficult or easy identifying a creature would be in his campaign.
ShinAkuma2 10-06-07, 01:28 PM	You just have to be careful sometimes when it involves class levels. Otherwise, you get situations where a character can identify a Mind Flayer, for example, but not the Mind Flayer Sorcerer right next to him, just because the Sorc has additional HD. You have to use your DM judgement on what HD should really count.
Kayli 10-06-07, 02:24 PM	I use CR rather then HD because some things have much higher HD then other monster with the same CR. You just have to be careful sometimes when it involves class levels. Otherwise, you get situations where a character can identify a Mind Flayer, for example, but not the Mind Flayer Sorcerer right next to him, just because the Sorc has additional HD. You have to use your DM judgement on what HD should really count. In a situation like this, i use the base CR of the creature to identify what creature is, then the players are free to make a spot check to determine that it has spell components or such that might give away that it has class lvl's to boot. or, once they have id'd the creature, and it uses spells, I might let them make an other knowledge check to see if they know that members of that race don't normally have access to the spell used. determining class, and or class lvl's is not a knoweldge check, so I leave those out of the equation when pc's are trying to id a creature.
Mojo_Rat 10-06-07, 02:48 PM	I hope saying this doesnt come off Mean. But the thread title Brings up something that drives me nuts. So heres the thing Monsters are not MOBS Unless fiting some normal convention of the word such as a representative of an organized criminal group Or a large gathering of people. It stands for Mobile Object, Which is in no ay applicable to Tabletop dungeons and Dragons (and wont even be when the online stuff comes on) The Only time Its applicable is in a computer game where an Ai is making all the decisions.
Mojo_Rat 10-06-07, 02:52 PM	And so my previous post isnt a thread derailment since the op had an actual good question. Really i would decide how 'rare' the monster is and set your DC's from there. Challenge rating doesnt equate to how rare a creature is. Things like Beholders and Mind flayers while not being super common are Iconic enough to their enviroments that if you have knowledge monster or underground or other suitable knowledge skills knowing of their existance and roughlly what they look like would be reasonable. Actual knowing he powers probly harder. But i think its all Dm discretion the DC checks.
tygreen101 10-06-07, 10:10 PM	I hope saying this doesnt come off Mean. But the thread title Brings up something that drives me nuts. So heres the thing Monsters are not MOBS Unless fiting some normal convention of the word such as a representative of an organized criminal group Or a large gathering of people. It stands for Mobile Object, Which is in no ay applicable to Tabletop dungeons and Dragons (and wont even be when the online stuff comes on) The Only time Its applicable is in a computer game where an Ai is making all the decisions. you are 100% correct. personally I have played both table top and MMORPGs for so long that I blur things sometimes. I just generically call them all mobs. and my gaming group all plays some kind of MMORPG so my calling them all mobs works. so it furthers my own incorrectness by being acceptable to call everything a mob. eh.. I'll try to proofread a little better next time and think of my audience a little better. but, there has been A LOT of good info in this thread. thank you. it's good to think that I'm doing something correctly.