Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Majick 01-22-08, 10:05 PM	This is a question about Monks and a few feat and item combinations i have been wondering about: 1. Does anybody know if Superior Unarmed Strike (feat) and a Monk's Belt (item) stack? - my personal thoughts are yes because one is magical and one is a feat but if anyone disagrees or knows of any official errata please let me know 2. Does anyone know if the Improved Natural Attack (feat) and Battle Fists (warforged item) stack? - my personal thoughts are yes again as one states it increases the damage die of unarmed (whatever it is) and the other states you strike as one size larger, but once again, does anyone have any official rulings or errata on this? I haven't been able to find anything anywhere about these and would really appreciate some input or perhaps a link or something to somewhere with some answers :P Thanks in advance ^_^
Gworraent 01-22-08, 10:13 PM	Funny that you should ask, I was just about to make a whole new thread asking if anyone knew what book Superior Unarmed Strike was in. I found it in this build http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10315463&postcount=525 I'm sorry I can't actually answer your question, but I figured that it'd be best to avoid clutter and waste of bandwith. And hey, it looks like you're the man with the answer...for me at least:P
Artector 01-22-08, 10:19 PM	I believe most people rule "no" on 2, and for similar reasons would rule "no" on 1. The Battle Fist/INA argument is that they both increase from YOUR catergory up one. So they just overlap. Kinda like having a keen weapon which you already have improved crit with. In the same strain the Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt should probably function off the monk's base level, not a modified one, much like the battle fists. I know dealing 4d6 (or something simiarly silly) damage in a flurry is tempting at level 8, but its game breaking/borderline gamebreaking in my opinion. Mind you this is from memory and off the top of my head.
Majick 01-22-08, 11:20 PM	Both Superior Unarmed Strike and the Monk's Belt state "Deal damage as 'X' levels higher" - i guess i can see why there is a no consencus so far on that one, but i'd like some more peoples views to get some sort of debate going :P But as for the Battlefist and Improved Natural Attack argument; Battlefists state something along the lines of "deal damage with unarmed as if one size category larger" where as Improved Natural Attack says "Your unarmed damage die is increased" - the difference here being there is no statement about anything in relation to monk's, your level, size categories, or anything else for that matter in relation to Improved Natural Attack; to me it reads purely as an increase :cool: But once again, all input appreciated (and if anyone has a link or can post official errat, that would be great too!) Keep it coming guys!
dman11235 01-22-08, 11:27 PM	INA and battle fist do not stack, as they are both "one size larger than you are". SUS and Monk's Belt do stack because they are boosts to your effective class level, not "than you are". Now for Gworraent: 1) don't ask until you have checked the various lists. 2) it's in ToB.
Majick 01-22-08, 11:43 PM	INA and battle fist do not stack, as they are both "one size larger than you are". Actually, i just read the Improved Natural Attack entry again; it says nothing about "one size larger than you are" it simply states that: "... The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased by one category" (MM, p.304) To me that seems to read like they were giving you an idea of what it ment when you actually took Improved Natural Attack like as an example; The "...as if..." line kinda makes me think this way SUS and Monk's Belt do stack because they are boosts to your effective class level, not "than you are". See now it's weird, 'cause the Superior Unarmed Strike entry reads "If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk 4 levels higher" It doesn't say higher than you are, it just says higher :P Now if the feat doesn't specifically state 'higher monk levels than you currently are' then does anyone else think it'd stack? Then again, if it just says "4 level higher" then does that mean no matter what other increases you get, they'll all be pointless because you can only strike as a monk 4 level higher than you? Some good arguments so far - seems a few no and a few yes for each side. Anyone have any official word yet? If not, MORE INPUT :D Thanks everyone for helping
Weab 01-23-08, 01:07 AM	Personally, I'd say the monk's belt and superior unarmed strike dont stack. the reason you gave that they do would be 1 magical, one a feat. Well, personally it brings to mind the keen magical weapon ability and improved critical feat. one magical, one feat. dont stack. I think its a fair comparison. as to the battle fists, I'd also rule that they dont stack. but thats just based on my opinion. I respect that you're trying for a million d6 on an unarmed strike, but I dont think its a reasonable way to go about it
dman11235 01-23-08, 02:22 PM	I guess another reason I allow SUS and monk's belt to stack is because the monk isn't a powerful class at all, so they could use the power boost. And besides, it can't go above the level 20 maximum. Battle fist actually says "..than actual", meaning that you use the base size of the weapon.
deathbane 01-23-08, 03:46 PM	This is a question about Monks and a few feat and item combinations i have been wondering about: 1. Does anybody know if Superior Unarmed Strike (feat) and a Monk's Belt (item) stack? - my personal thoughts are yes because one is magical and one is a feat but if anyone disagrees or knows of any official errata please let me know 2. Does anyone know if the Improved Natural Attack (feat) and Battle Fists (warforged item) stack? - my personal thoughts are yes again as one states it increases the damage die of unarmed (whatever it is) and the other states you strike as one size larger, but once again, does anyone have any official rulings or errata on this? I haven't been able to find anything anywhere about these and would really appreciate some input or perhaps a link or something to somewhere with some answers :P Thanks in advance ^_^ Both of these have been debated several time with no clear winner(nobody admitting they were wrong). Both the monk's belt and the superior unarmed strike refer to the monk's actual level so I would say no. INA, and the battlefist also reference the character's actual size, just like powerful build and monkey grip do, so I would say no to that also. One says as if the creature were one category size larger, and the battlefist says as though ...were one category size larger. If you had a way to actually increase your size, and then add either one that should work.
dman11235 01-23-08, 05:42 PM	Both the monk's belt and the superior unarmed strike refer to the monk's actual level so I would say no. See, I don't agree with that. I read it as referencing their effective monk level for the purposes of unarmed strike damage, much like caster level boosts from the ioun stone and a reserve feat, or the ioun stone and the Archmage or Heirophant ability. Those stack, why not these? The difference between this argument and the battlefist one is that this references class level, and battlefist/INA reference size.
deathbane 01-23-08, 11:25 PM	See, I don't agree with that. I read it as referencing their effective monk level for the purposes of unarmed strike damage, much like caster level boosts from the ioun stone and a reserve feat, or the ioun stone and the Archmage or Heirophant ability. Those stack, why not these? The difference between this argument and the battlefist one is that this references class level, and battlefist/INA reference size. The as if, and as though imply a virtual increase in size. The ioun stone, and prestige classes give you a real increase in caster level. I don't know which reserve feat you are talking about since I have never tried to use those.
JamesMaissen 01-24-08, 12:08 AM	Personally, I'd say the monk's belt and superior unarmed strike dont stack. the reason you gave that they do would be 1 magical, one a feat. Would improved turning then not work with a phylactery for turning undead? In the example you stated (keen & improved critical) they are expressly stated as not to stack.. because without such a statement one would assume that they did (like in 3.0). Not saying that the should stack (or shouldn't) but rather just saying that the reasoning given seemed flawed. Likewise I don't know 'superior unarmed strike' and would have to see the text to comment upon it. But Improved Natural Attack doesn't make the natural attack count as a higher size creature in any other way than what the damage dice happen to be... so it would seem reasonable for them to stack. -James
deathbane 01-24-08, 12:36 AM	Would improved turning then not work with a phylactery for turning undead? In the example you stated (keen & improved critical) they are expressly stated as not to stack.. because without such a statement one would assume that they did (like in 3.0). Not saying that the should stack (or shouldn't) but rather just saying that the reasoning given seemed flawed. Likewise I don't know 'superior unarmed strike' and would have to see the text to comment upon it. But Improved Natural Attack doesn't make the natural attack count as a higher size creature in any other way than what the damage dice happen to be... so it would seem reasonable for them to stack. -James The text for INA specifically says "...as if one size category larger...". To make sure we are clear Category A is superior unarmed strike and the monk's belt Category B is INA, and the battlefist. Anything from Category A stacks with Category B because they are doing different things, but Category A nor B stack with themselves because they do the same thing.
JamesMaissen 01-24-08, 03:45 AM	Anything from Category A stacks with Category B because they are doing different things, but Category A nor B stack with themselves because they do the same thing. What are the references for each? Improved Natural attack is the MM and Monk's Belt is the DMG... but where are the other two from? -James
deathbane 01-24-08, 05:57 AM	What are the references for each? Improved Natural attack is the MM and Monk's Belt is the DMG... but where are the other two from? -James The battlefist is in the Eberron Campaign book pg 268 Superior unarmed strike is in the Tomb of battle pg 33
The_Shaman 01-24-08, 06:27 AM	I believe that INA would stack with most other sources as it simply says that damage from one natural weapon increases by one category. The Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (draconomicon) has a feature that does the same thing, twice, so it obviously stacks with itself there. Thus, INA would stack with effects that increase your size such as enlarge, expansion, righteous might, and others. Also,the feat description specifically says it can not be taken more than once with the same natural weapon, so this would imply that it would, normally, stack with other effects of the same kind. As for the monk belt and SUS, I think they stack as well. It simply says the character, if s/he has monk levels, is treated as a monk 5 levels higher. It would be like having a class feature or item that adds to your caster level.
deathbane 01-24-08, 07:43 AM	I believe that INA would stack with most other sources as it simply says that damage from one natural weapon increases by one category. The Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (draconomicon) has a feature that does the same thing, twice, so it obviously stacks with itself there. Thus, INA would stack with effects that increase your size such as enlarge, expansion, righteous might, and others. Also,the feat description specifically says it can not be taken more than once with the same natural weapon, so this would imply that it would, normally, stack with other effects of the same kind. The reason you can't take it multiple times would be because it could lead to a very broken character or monster if a DM decided to switch out some useless feat like toughness for a real feat. If INA stacked with itself you could get a monk's belt, and take INA twice, since it is better than a lot of other feats a monk could take and out damage a fighter doing 4d6 per strike As for the monk belt and SUS, I think they stack as well. It simply says the character, if s/he has monk levels, is treated as a monk 5 levels higher. It would be like having a class feature or item that adds to your caster level. Enlarge person increases your real size so the battlefist or INA would stack, but neither the battlefist, nor INA increase your real size. They are virtual size increases which reference your real size, and thus don't stack with each other. It is no different than the monkey grip/powerful build issue which has been ruled don't stack because they both reference the creature's original size. The Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries is a class feature that specifically increases the damage without any mention to size so anything that increases a monk's effective level such as a monk's belt, and anything that gives a virtual size increase such as unarmed strike would also work with this PrC. I might have to try one of these, thanks.:) Items that add to your caster level actually allow you to be that level caster as long as you have that item. The monk items by saying as if means you still have to reference your real monk level. If the item said +1 monk level instead of as if one level higher, for example then it would be a real increase instead of a virtual increase.