Monkey Grip, Confused... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monkey Grip, Confused... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Venion
04-07-08, 08:00 PM Alright, I've done a search in the forums and read the threads but I'm still a little confused. From what I've read, is it that monkey grip will let you use a Large one handed weapon (Longsword, Bastard Sword, etc) in one hand, but will not let you use a Medium Greatsword in one hand?

Just trying to clarify how things work.

Also, would you need the Exotic Weapon proficiency to use a Large Bastard Sword in one hand?
Shaggy_Shaggs
04-07-08, 08:07 PM Alright, I've done a search in the forums and read the threads but I'm still a little confused. From what I've read, is it that monkey grip will let you use a Large one handed weapon (Longsword, Bastard Sword, etc) in one hand, but will not let you use a Medium Greatsword in one hand?Correct. Monkey Grip allows you to use weapons designed for creatures larger than you are, but it does not shift weapons' positions on the too small/light/1h/2h/too big scale.Also, would you need the Exotic Weapon proficiency to use a Large Bastard Sword in one hand?Yes. The bastard sword used as a one-handed weapon remains exotic regardless of Monkey Grip.
Kouk
04-07-08, 08:28 PM Well, a Large-sized Longsword is a Medium-sized Greatsword, so it sort of can let you use a Greatsword in one hand.
risner
04-07-08, 08:56 PM Well, a Large-sized Longsword is a Medium-sized Greatsword, so it sort of can let you use a Greatsword in one hand.

Yes, but you are at -4 (-2 from monkey griping a Large and -2 from wrong size)
jaelis
04-07-08, 10:32 PM Well, a Large-sized Longsword is a Medium-sized Greatsword, so it sort of can let you use a Greatsword in one hand.
Well, they do the same damage, and probably look kind of similar. But they are not the same. The difference would be apparent if a medium creature tried to use one in two hands: the Large longsword would incur a -2 penalty, the Medium greatsword would not.
Cuindless
04-07-08, 11:16 PM Yes, but you are at -4 (-2 from monkey griping a Large and -2 from wrong size)

Okay, now I'm confused. What's the point of taking Monkey Grip then? What's the normal penalty for wielding a large longsword as a medium creature?
dman11235
04-07-08, 11:26 PM -4. I believe it is that. But it is a terrible feat, do not take it. Math has been done to show why it is a bad investment. At least, unless you are already huge+.
jaelis
04-07-08, 11:32 PM Okay, now I'm confused. What's the point of taking Monkey Grip then? What's the normal penalty for wielding a large longsword as a medium creature?
Without Monkey Grip (or Powerful Build, etc), a medium creature cannot wield a Large longsword in one hand at all. He could wield it in two hands, but would take a -2 penalty.

With Monkey Grip, he can wield it in one hand with a -2 penalty. (He would still take a -2 penalty when using two hands though.)

The net effect in this case would be upping your damage from 1d8 to 2d6, or +2.5 points on average, which is only marginally better than power attacking with a -2 penalty, and rather worse because you can't adjust the penalty to suit the situation you are in.

You do slightly better with the bastard sword, which goes from 1d10 to 2d8, a +3.5 point increase. You start to do much better if you are larger than medium-sized yourself. For instance, a huge giant wielding a gargantuan greatsword with MG would net +7 average damage.
mplindustries
04-07-08, 11:37 PM Well, a Large-sized Longsword is a Medium-sized Greatsword, so it sort of can let you use a Greatsword in one hand.
Correction: A large-sized longsword was a medium-sized greatsword in 3.0.

Now, in 3.5, a large-sized longsword is...a large-sized longsword. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize)'s the sizing section as it stands now.

Okay, now I'm confused. What's the point of taking Monkey Grip then? What's the normal penalty for wielding a large longsword as a medium creature?
The point of taking Monkey Grip...well there isn't much point. It does let you wield a larger weapon without increased effort. For example, normally, to use a large sized longsword, you'd have to use two-hands, and a large Greatsword would not even be wieldable by a medium character. Unfortunately, the -2 still applies, so its still not really worth it.

Monkey Grip is an ok feat, assuming you already have Power Attack and have exhausted all other options for increasing your damage. Or if you are already larger than medium (not medium with powerful build, mind you, but actually larger).

Consider this:
If you are using Monkey Grip on a Greatsword, you'd gain 3.5 average damage going medium (2d6) to large (3d6) in exchange for a -2 penalty to hit. If you use Power Attack on a Greatsword, you'd gain 4 damage for a -2 penalty to hit, and you retain the option to reduce or increase that penalty/damage as the situation calls for it. Anyway, thats the "standard" example of why Monkey Grip is not worth it.
Cuindless
04-08-08, 12:25 AM So if I were optimizing a Storm Giant, for example, then Monkey Grip would be an okay feat in combination with Power Attack and the Frenzied Berserker PrC?
Kouk
04-08-08, 12:31 AM Correction: A large-sized longsword was a medium-sized greatsword in 3.0.

Now, in 3.5, a large-sized longsword is...a large-sized longsword. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize)'s the sizing section as it stands now.

I'm aware of that.

However, what is the major difference between these?

Medium Greatsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs.

Large Longsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs.

Oh yeah, the price. Med. Greatsword costs 50gp, Large Longsword costs 30gp. :P
thejibboo
04-08-08, 01:34 AM Correction: A large-sized longsword was a medium-sized greatsword in 3.0.

Now, in 3.5, a large-sized longsword is...a large-sized longsword.

DMG pg. 27 gives a Variant: Weapon Equivalencies table which is what i think Kouk is referring to. Of course it's an optional thing, but as he's pointed out it's pretty reasonable to substitute a large long sword for a medium great sword. I would say "yes" to a player who, strictly for flavor reasons, wanted to use monkey grip to hold a medium great sword in one hand, since it is in all relevant ways the same as a large long sword.
Kouk
04-08-08, 03:24 AM Yes, I know weapon equivalences and I think it is a marvelous rule.

However, I was saying it was the same for purposes of getting Monkey Grip to "let you use a greatsword one handed".
mplindustries
04-08-08, 01:27 PM I'm aware of that.

However, what is the major difference between these?

Medium Greatsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs.

Large Longsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs.

Oh yeah, the price. Med. Greatsword costs 50gp, Large Longsword costs 30gp. :P

The major difference is that the large longsword imposes a -2 to hit.

I'm not saying it isn't a totally reasonable house rule to make. I'm just saying that it would be a house rule.
Tordak
04-09-08, 09:23 AM I'm aware of that.

However, what is the major difference between these?

Medium Greatsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs.

Large Longsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs.

Oh yeah, the price. Med. Greatsword costs 50gp, Large Longsword costs 30gp. :P

The difference is conceptuel, not so much in stats. A longsword design for a large creatrue would have a wider pummel, on design so that a creature with large hand could wrap its hands around it. A medium great sword has a tinner grip, design for medium creature's hand. This result in a harder to use weapon when not of the appropriate size(-2 penalty to hit, more effort).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Venion 04-07-08, 08:00 PM	Alright, I've done a search in the forums and read the threads but I'm still a little confused. From what I've read, is it that monkey grip will let you use a Large one handed weapon (Longsword, Bastard Sword, etc) in one hand, but will not let you use a Medium Greatsword in one hand? Just trying to clarify how things work. Also, would you need the Exotic Weapon proficiency to use a Large Bastard Sword in one hand?
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-07-08, 08:07 PM	Alright, I've done a search in the forums and read the threads but I'm still a little confused. From what I've read, is it that monkey grip will let you use a Large one handed weapon (Longsword, Bastard Sword, etc) in one hand, but will not let you use a Medium Greatsword in one hand?Correct. Monkey Grip allows you to use weapons designed for creatures larger than you are, but it does not shift weapons' positions on the too small/light/1h/2h/too big scale.Also, would you need the Exotic Weapon proficiency to use a Large Bastard Sword in one hand?Yes. The bastard sword used as a one-handed weapon remains exotic regardless of Monkey Grip.
Kouk 04-07-08, 08:28 PM	Well, a Large-sized Longsword is a Medium-sized Greatsword, so it sort of can let you use a Greatsword in one hand.
risner 04-07-08, 08:56 PM	Well, a Large-sized Longsword is a Medium-sized Greatsword, so it sort of can let you use a Greatsword in one hand. Yes, but you are at -4 (-2 from monkey griping a Large and -2 from wrong size)
jaelis 04-07-08, 10:32 PM	Well, a Large-sized Longsword is a Medium-sized Greatsword, so it sort of can let you use a Greatsword in one hand. Well, they do the same damage, and probably look kind of similar. But they are not the same. The difference would be apparent if a medium creature tried to use one in two hands: the Large longsword would incur a -2 penalty, the Medium greatsword would not.
Cuindless 04-07-08, 11:16 PM	Yes, but you are at -4 (-2 from monkey griping a Large and -2 from wrong size) Okay, now I'm confused. What's the point of taking Monkey Grip then? What's the normal penalty for wielding a large longsword as a medium creature?
dman11235 04-07-08, 11:26 PM	-4. I believe it is that. But it is a terrible feat, do not take it. Math has been done to show why it is a bad investment. At least, unless you are already huge+.
jaelis 04-07-08, 11:32 PM	Okay, now I'm confused. What's the point of taking Monkey Grip then? What's the normal penalty for wielding a large longsword as a medium creature? Without Monkey Grip (or Powerful Build, etc), a medium creature cannot wield a Large longsword in one hand at all. He could wield it in two hands, but would take a -2 penalty. With Monkey Grip, he can wield it in one hand with a -2 penalty. (He would still take a -2 penalty when using two hands though.) The net effect in this case would be upping your damage from 1d8 to 2d6, or +2.5 points on average, which is only marginally better than power attacking with a -2 penalty, and rather worse because you can't adjust the penalty to suit the situation you are in. You do slightly better with the bastard sword, which goes from 1d10 to 2d8, a +3.5 point increase. You start to do much better if you are larger than medium-sized yourself. For instance, a huge giant wielding a gargantuan greatsword with MG would net +7 average damage.
mplindustries 04-07-08, 11:37 PM	Well, a Large-sized Longsword is a Medium-sized Greatsword, so it sort of can let you use a Greatsword in one hand. Correction: A large-sized longsword was a medium-sized greatsword in 3.0. Now, in 3.5, a large-sized longsword is...a large-sized longsword. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize)'s the sizing section as it stands now. Okay, now I'm confused. What's the point of taking Monkey Grip then? What's the normal penalty for wielding a large longsword as a medium creature? The point of taking Monkey Grip...well there isn't much point. It does let you wield a larger weapon without increased effort. For example, normally, to use a large sized longsword, you'd have to use two-hands, and a large Greatsword would not even be wieldable by a medium character. Unfortunately, the -2 still applies, so its still not really worth it. Monkey Grip is an ok feat, assuming you already have Power Attack and have exhausted all other options for increasing your damage. Or if you are already larger than medium (not medium with powerful build, mind you, but actually larger). Consider this: If you are using Monkey Grip on a Greatsword, you'd gain 3.5 average damage going medium (2d6) to large (3d6) in exchange for a -2 penalty to hit. If you use Power Attack on a Greatsword, you'd gain 4 damage for a -2 penalty to hit, and you retain the option to reduce or increase that penalty/damage as the situation calls for it. Anyway, thats the "standard" example of why Monkey Grip is not worth it.
Cuindless 04-08-08, 12:25 AM	So if I were optimizing a Storm Giant, for example, then Monkey Grip would be an okay feat in combination with Power Attack and the Frenzied Berserker PrC?
Kouk 04-08-08, 12:31 AM	Correction: A large-sized longsword was a medium-sized greatsword in 3.0. Now, in 3.5, a large-sized longsword is...a large-sized longsword. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize)'s the sizing section as it stands now. I'm aware of that. However, what is the major difference between these? Medium Greatsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs. Large Longsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs. Oh yeah, the price. Med. Greatsword costs 50gp, Large Longsword costs 30gp. :P
thejibboo 04-08-08, 01:34 AM	Correction: A large-sized longsword was a medium-sized greatsword in 3.0. Now, in 3.5, a large-sized longsword is...a large-sized longsword. DMG pg. 27 gives a Variant: Weapon Equivalencies table which is what i think Kouk is referring to. Of course it's an optional thing, but as he's pointed out it's pretty reasonable to substitute a large long sword for a medium great sword. I would say "yes" to a player who, strictly for flavor reasons, wanted to use monkey grip to hold a medium great sword in one hand, since it is in all relevant ways the same as a large long sword.
Kouk 04-08-08, 03:24 AM	Yes, I know weapon equivalences and I think it is a marvelous rule. However, I was saying it was the same for purposes of getting Monkey Grip to "let you use a greatsword one handed".
mplindustries 04-08-08, 01:27 PM	I'm aware of that. However, what is the major difference between these? Medium Greatsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs. Large Longsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs. Oh yeah, the price. Med. Greatsword costs 50gp, Large Longsword costs 30gp. :P The major difference is that the large longsword imposes a -2 to hit. I'm not saying it isn't a totally reasonable house rule to make. I'm just saying that it would be a house rule.
Tordak 04-09-08, 09:23 AM	I'm aware of that. However, what is the major difference between these? Medium Greatsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs. Large Longsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing, weight 8lbs. Oh yeah, the price. Med. Greatsword costs 50gp, Large Longsword costs 30gp. :P The difference is conceptuel, not so much in stats. A longsword design for a large creatrue would have a wider pummel, on design so that a creature with large hand could wrap its hands around it. A medium great sword has a tinner grip, design for medium creature's hand. This result in a harder to use weapon when not of the appropriate size(-2 penalty to hit, more effort).