Monkey Grip question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monkey Grip question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xavorin
08-31-07, 06:43 PM Hello, all--

I believe that the feat Monkey Grip (CW and WoL) lets you wield a large weapon one-handed and all, but that it does not let you wield a medium two-handed weapon (e.g. a greatsword) in one hand, and that it was a 3.0 rule that you could, but revised in 3.5 to say that you can't. I was wondering if anyone else knew if this was true.

An example of what I'm asking is this: If I had a 1st level fighter with the Monkey Grip feat, could I wield a greatsword in one hand? Or could I wield a greatsword in two hands, or a large greatsword in two hands with a -2 penalty on attack rolls.

Thanks in advance for all help.

--Xavorin
KurenaiYami
08-31-07, 07:07 PM Hello, all--

I believe that the feat Monkey Grip (CW and WoL) lets you wield a large weapon one-handed and all, but that it does not let you wield a medium two-handed weapon (e.g. a greatsword) in one hand, and that it was a 3.0 rule that you could, but revised in 3.5 to say that you can't. I was wondering if anyone else knew if this was true.

Yup.
Nephlite
08-31-07, 07:11 PM An example of what I'm asking is this: If I had a 1st level fighter with the Monkey Grip feat, could I wield a greatsword in one hand? Or could I wield a greatsword in two hands, or a large greatsword in two hands with a -2 penalty on attack rolls.

Thanks in advance for all help.

--Xavorin
1. impossible.
2. yeah, always could
3. Yes.
Xavorin
08-31-07, 07:59 PM Yup.

1. impossible.
2. yeah, always could
3. Yes.

Okay, thanks so much for the quick responses. Another quick question; Which do people generally consider a better idea:

Wielding a large falchion in one hand using monkey-grip and a shield, taking the -2 penalty to attacks...

Wielding a large falchion in two hands, with no shield and no feat and taking the afore-mentioned penalty...

Or just wielding a normal falchion in two hands, with no shield and no feat and taking no penalty.

Thanks again for all in-put, sorry about the question that changes the topic so much.
Istaran
08-31-07, 08:16 PM Okay, thanks so much for the quick responses. Another quick question; Which do people generally consider a better idea:

Wielding a large falchion in one hand using monkey-grip and a shield, taking the -2 penalty to attacks...

Not possible. falchion is a two handed weapon.

Wielding a large falchion in two hands, with no shield and no feat and taking the afore-mentioned penalty...

You trade 2 to hit for 2d4->2d6 = average +2 damage. Power attack is better.

Or just wielding a normal falchion in two hands, with no shield and no feat and taking no penalty.

Take Power Attack instead of Monkey Grip and this is a better option.

Thanks again for all in-put, sorry about the question that changes the topic so much.

Note that it is hard to get better results from Monkey Grip than from Power Attack. You need to be gaining more than 4 average damage per hit, otherwise 2handed power attack will do better. Monkey Gripping a large bastard sword w/ EWP(bastard sword) so you can one hand it would work out better than PA, since PA only gives 1 for 1 on 1h weapons. Of course, that requires you to have something worthwhile to do with your off hand, like a shield.
tarkin
09-01-07, 08:20 AM 1. As other stated, unless you start out as Huge, Monkey Grip is a fool's choice.

2. You have confused the 3.0 and 35 rules.

The ONLY ways for a Medium creature to use a Large weapon without taking the -2 penalty (in 3.5) are:

a. Using a magical enchantment on the weapon (+1 and yes, that is generally considered not the best use of the weapon enchantment - get a straight +1 to hit and damage and Power Attack for a better damage improvement).

b. Having a racial ability called Powerfull Build or something similar.

In 3.5 when you use a large weapon in both hands, you still get the -2 penalty. All monkey grip does it let you use it in one hand, it does not impose the penalty, it is part of using the weapon in ANY #of hands.
Nephlite
09-01-07, 09:11 AM You trade 2 to hit for 2d4->2d6 = average +2 damage. Power attack is better.

True, If you can get Bastardsword for free than Monkey grip is worth it.

1d10 (average 5.5) ->2d8 (Average 9) Decent upgrade. However, normally monkey grip + exotic proficiency is 2 feats so hard to say if worth it.
Longarms
09-02-07, 06:35 PM 'True, If you can get Bastardsword for free than Monkey grip is worth it."

Dwarves get dwarven waraxe proficiency for free (essentially a bastard sword) :cool:
Nezkrul
09-02-07, 10:16 PM A Large Falchion cannot be wielded by a medium sized creature that does not have a special ability or magic item allowing it to do so. Weapon sizing rules state that for each size category above the intended wielder's size the handedness to wield the weapon increases by 1 step (from light to one-handed, from one-handed to two-handed, and from two-handed to cannot wield without special ability / magic item). Without Powerful Build, Monkey Grip, a size change up, or the Strong Arm Bracers from MIC a medium character cannot wield a large falchion (did I miss anything?).

You'll be better off wielding a normal falchion and taking Power Attack feat because of the math. You'll be better off wielding a Large Falchion with the Monkey Grip feat for roleplaying effects.
Terric
09-02-07, 11:55 PM I don't know if it's a hard-fast rule that you can't wield it in such a way. I do know a few things for certain:

-Greatswords deal 2d6 damage
-Longswords deal 1d8 damage
-When increasing damage for a weapon based on size, 1d8 goes up to 2d6 for one size increase

Based upon those facts, it stands to reason that a greatsword is really just a large longsword. It can be debated, however, that the size of the grip and all proportions of the blade are... well... off. Certain DMs would allow you to use Monkey Grip to wield your sword one handed (at a -2 penalty), some might not.

But of course, you can wield a Large Greatsword two-handed at -2.
Nezkrul
09-03-07, 07:17 PM But of course, you can wield a Large Greatsword two-handed at -2.

with monkey grip, yes :)
Frugal
09-04-07, 11:10 AM -Greatswords deal 2d6 damage
-Longswords deal 1d8 damage
-When increasing damage for a weapon based on size, 1d8 goes up to 2d6 for one size increase

Based upon those facts, it stands to reason that a greatsword is really just a large longsword. It can be debated, however, that the size of the grip and all proportions of the blade are... well... off. Certain DMs would allow you to use Monkey Grip to wield your sword one handed (at a -2 penalty), some might not.

The problem is that everyone throws out the longsword example and neglects to look at every other 2-handed weapon. Allowing you to wield a medium greatsword 1-handed (with Monkey Grip) might be mechanically the same as wielding a large longsword 1-handed (with Monkey Grip) but there's a pile of other 2-handed weapons that would raise issues. And yes, even though they do the same damage, damage type and have the same crit range, a medium greatsword is not the same weapon as a large longsword in 3.5. Consider something like enlarge person, the medium creature grows to large, his medium greatsword becomes a large greatsword, a large longsword would become a huge longsword. Now suppose he drops the weapon, they resize to their proper size, the greatsword is now an inappropriately sized weapon for him while the greatsword is a large weapon so properly sized for him still.
tarkin
09-04-07, 12:12 PM I don't know if it's a hard-fast rule that you can't wield it in such a way. I do know a few things for certain:

-Greatswords deal 2d6 damage
-Longswords deal 1d8 damage
-When increasing damage for a weapon based on size, 1d8 goes up to 2d6 for one size increase

Based upon those facts, it stands to reason that a greatsword is really just a large longsword. It can be debated, however, that the size of the grip and all proportions of the blade are... well... off. Certain DMs would allow you to use Monkey Grip to wield your sword one handed (at a -2 penalty), some might not.

But of course, you can wield a Large Greatsword two-handed at -2.

Your assumption does NOT stand to reason.

Instead it demonstrates foolishness.

You see, among other things, a longsword is not the only weapon that does 1d8. So does a battle axe. By your same logic, a large battle axe is identical to a greatsword.

As for the rest, it is just people trying to ignore the existing rules.

Why? You KNOW why. What you called 'it can be debated" is an in built part of the game. The hilt and balance are taken into account in the size rules, if not in the rest of the game. That is why what you are trying to do is illegal.

Those are the rules. They are not "can be debated", instead they are the rules of the game.

You can of course say "We can choose to HOUSE RULE to ignore the existing rules and instead play a much simpler, less realistic game".

But that is what it is: a house rule.
Nezkrul
09-04-07, 07:15 PM Your assumption does NOT stand to reason. No, in your opinion it does not, his opinion is his opinion.
Instead it demonstrates foolishness. No it doesn't, everyone's known that a large longsword had the same exact game stats as a medium greatsword for some time now, he's just comparing them. As the game gets older, newer and newer people will start playing and will keep bringing this up. It isn't foolish to ask questions and get opinions of elder players like us.
Why? You KNOW why. What you called 'it can be debated" is an in built part of the game.
ALL rules can be debated or thrown out - ala Rule 0.
"We can choose to HOUSE RULE to ignore the existing rules and instead play a much simpler, less realistic game".
LOL! Since when was D&D even semi-realistic? don't be mad, just pokin fun :)
KurenaiYami
09-05-07, 03:56 AM No it doesn't, everyone's known that a large longsword had the same exact game stats as a medium greatsword for some time now, he's just comparing them.

I wouldn't say exact same game stats, seeing as one will give you a -2 penalty to attack for being inappropriately sized.
Frugal
09-05-07, 10:28 AM I wouldn't say exact same game stats, seeing as one will give you a -2 penalty to attack for being inappropriately sized.

Exactly, people like to look at the damage, crit range and damage type and say, "gee, they're the same!" forgetting that in 3.5 there is a difference between a 2-handed medium weapon and a 1-handed large weapon, even if every other game stat is the same. I suspect some of this is a throwback to 3.0's weapon sizing rules where you didn't have penalties for inappropriate size and just used the weapon's size to figure out the effort needed to wield it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xavorin 08-31-07, 06:43 PM	Hello, all-- I believe that the feat Monkey Grip (CW and WoL) lets you wield a large weapon one-handed and all, but that it does not let you wield a medium two-handed weapon (e.g. a greatsword) in one hand, and that it was a 3.0 rule that you could, but revised in 3.5 to say that you can't. I was wondering if anyone else knew if this was true. An example of what I'm asking is this: If I had a 1st level fighter with the Monkey Grip feat, could I wield a greatsword in one hand? Or could I wield a greatsword in two hands, or a large greatsword in two hands with a -2 penalty on attack rolls. Thanks in advance for all help. --Xavorin
KurenaiYami 08-31-07, 07:07 PM	Hello, all-- I believe that the feat Monkey Grip (CW and WoL) lets you wield a large weapon one-handed and all, but that it does not let you wield a medium two-handed weapon (e.g. a greatsword) in one hand, and that it was a 3.0 rule that you could, but revised in 3.5 to say that you can't. I was wondering if anyone else knew if this was true. Yup.
Nephlite 08-31-07, 07:11 PM	An example of what I'm asking is this: If I had a 1st level fighter with the Monkey Grip feat, could I wield a greatsword in one hand? Or could I wield a greatsword in two hands, or a large greatsword in two hands with a -2 penalty on attack rolls. Thanks in advance for all help. --Xavorin 1. impossible. 2. yeah, always could 3. Yes.
Xavorin 08-31-07, 07:59 PM	Yup. 1. impossible. 2. yeah, always could 3. Yes. Okay, thanks so much for the quick responses. Another quick question; Which do people generally consider a better idea: Wielding a large falchion in one hand using monkey-grip and a shield, taking the -2 penalty to attacks... Wielding a large falchion in two hands, with no shield and no feat and taking the afore-mentioned penalty... Or just wielding a normal falchion in two hands, with no shield and no feat and taking no penalty. Thanks again for all in-put, sorry about the question that changes the topic so much.
Istaran 08-31-07, 08:16 PM	Okay, thanks so much for the quick responses. Another quick question; Which do people generally consider a better idea: Wielding a large falchion in one hand using monkey-grip and a shield, taking the -2 penalty to attacks... Not possible. falchion is a two handed weapon. Wielding a large falchion in two hands, with no shield and no feat and taking the afore-mentioned penalty... You trade 2 to hit for 2d4->2d6 = average +2 damage. Power attack is better. Or just wielding a normal falchion in two hands, with no shield and no feat and taking no penalty. Take Power Attack instead of Monkey Grip and this is a better option. Thanks again for all in-put, sorry about the question that changes the topic so much. Note that it is hard to get better results from Monkey Grip than from Power Attack. You need to be gaining more than 4 average damage per hit, otherwise 2handed power attack will do better. Monkey Gripping a large bastard sword w/ EWP(bastard sword) so you can one hand it would work out better than PA, since PA only gives 1 for 1 on 1h weapons. Of course, that requires you to have something worthwhile to do with your off hand, like a shield.
tarkin 09-01-07, 08:20 AM	1. As other stated, unless you start out as Huge, Monkey Grip is a fool's choice. 2. You have confused the 3.0 and 35 rules. The ONLY ways for a Medium creature to use a Large weapon without taking the -2 penalty (in 3.5) are: a. Using a magical enchantment on the weapon (+1 and yes, that is generally considered not the best use of the weapon enchantment - get a straight +1 to hit and damage and Power Attack for a better damage improvement). b. Having a racial ability called Powerfull Build or something similar. In 3.5 when you use a large weapon in both hands, you still get the -2 penalty. All monkey grip does it let you use it in one hand, it does not impose the penalty, it is part of using the weapon in ANY #of hands.
Nephlite 09-01-07, 09:11 AM	You trade 2 to hit for 2d4->2d6 = average +2 damage. Power attack is better. True, If you can get Bastardsword for free than Monkey grip is worth it. 1d10 (average 5.5) ->2d8 (Average 9) Decent upgrade. However, normally monkey grip + exotic proficiency is 2 feats so hard to say if worth it.
Longarms 09-02-07, 06:35 PM	'True, If you can get Bastardsword for free than Monkey grip is worth it." Dwarves get dwarven waraxe proficiency for free (essentially a bastard sword) :cool:
Nezkrul 09-02-07, 10:16 PM	A Large Falchion cannot be wielded by a medium sized creature that does not have a special ability or magic item allowing it to do so. Weapon sizing rules state that for each size category above the intended wielder's size the handedness to wield the weapon increases by 1 step (from light to one-handed, from one-handed to two-handed, and from two-handed to cannot wield without special ability / magic item). Without Powerful Build, Monkey Grip, a size change up, or the Strong Arm Bracers from MIC a medium character cannot wield a large falchion (did I miss anything?). You'll be better off wielding a normal falchion and taking Power Attack feat because of the math. You'll be better off wielding a Large Falchion with the Monkey Grip feat for roleplaying effects.
Terric 09-02-07, 11:55 PM	I don't know if it's a hard-fast rule that you can't wield it in such a way. I do know a few things for certain: -Greatswords deal 2d6 damage -Longswords deal 1d8 damage -When increasing damage for a weapon based on size, 1d8 goes up to 2d6 for one size increase Based upon those facts, it stands to reason that a greatsword is really just a large longsword. It can be debated, however, that the size of the grip and all proportions of the blade are... well... off. Certain DMs would allow you to use Monkey Grip to wield your sword one handed (at a -2 penalty), some might not. But of course, you can wield a Large Greatsword two-handed at -2.
Nezkrul 09-03-07, 07:17 PM	But of course, you can wield a Large Greatsword two-handed at -2. with monkey grip, yes :)
Frugal 09-04-07, 11:10 AM	-Greatswords deal 2d6 damage -Longswords deal 1d8 damage -When increasing damage for a weapon based on size, 1d8 goes up to 2d6 for one size increase Based upon those facts, it stands to reason that a greatsword is really just a large longsword. It can be debated, however, that the size of the grip and all proportions of the blade are... well... off. Certain DMs would allow you to use Monkey Grip to wield your sword one handed (at a -2 penalty), some might not. The problem is that everyone throws out the longsword example and neglects to look at every other 2-handed weapon. Allowing you to wield a medium greatsword 1-handed (with Monkey Grip) might be mechanically the same as wielding a large longsword 1-handed (with Monkey Grip) but there's a pile of other 2-handed weapons that would raise issues. And yes, even though they do the same damage, damage type and have the same crit range, a medium greatsword is not the same weapon as a large longsword in 3.5. Consider something like enlarge person, the medium creature grows to large, his medium greatsword becomes a large greatsword, a large longsword would become a huge longsword. Now suppose he drops the weapon, they resize to their proper size, the greatsword is now an inappropriately sized weapon for him while the greatsword is a large weapon so properly sized for him still.
tarkin 09-04-07, 12:12 PM	I don't know if it's a hard-fast rule that you can't wield it in such a way. I do know a few things for certain: -Greatswords deal 2d6 damage -Longswords deal 1d8 damage -When increasing damage for a weapon based on size, 1d8 goes up to 2d6 for one size increase Based upon those facts, it stands to reason that a greatsword is really just a large longsword. It can be debated, however, that the size of the grip and all proportions of the blade are... well... off. Certain DMs would allow you to use Monkey Grip to wield your sword one handed (at a -2 penalty), some might not. But of course, you can wield a Large Greatsword two-handed at -2. Your assumption does NOT stand to reason. Instead it demonstrates foolishness. You see, among other things, a longsword is not the only weapon that does 1d8. So does a battle axe. By your same logic, a large battle axe is identical to a greatsword. As for the rest, it is just people trying to ignore the existing rules. Why? You KNOW why. What you called 'it can be debated" is an in built part of the game. The hilt and balance are taken into account in the size rules, if not in the rest of the game. That is why what you are trying to do is illegal. Those are the rules. They are not "can be debated", instead they are the rules of the game. You can of course say "We can choose to HOUSE RULE to ignore the existing rules and instead play a much simpler, less realistic game". But that is what it is: a house rule.
Nezkrul 09-04-07, 07:15 PM	Your assumption does NOT stand to reason. No, in your opinion it does not, his opinion is his opinion. Instead it demonstrates foolishness. No it doesn't, everyone's known that a large longsword had the same exact game stats as a medium greatsword for some time now, he's just comparing them. As the game gets older, newer and newer people will start playing and will keep bringing this up. It isn't foolish to ask questions and get opinions of elder players like us. Why? You KNOW why. What you called 'it can be debated" is an in built part of the game. ALL rules can be debated or thrown out - ala Rule 0. "We can choose to HOUSE RULE to ignore the existing rules and instead play a much simpler, less realistic game". LOL! Since when was D&D even semi-realistic? don't be mad, just pokin fun :)
KurenaiYami 09-05-07, 03:56 AM	No it doesn't, everyone's known that a large longsword had the same exact game stats as a medium greatsword for some time now, he's just comparing them. I wouldn't say exact same game stats, seeing as one will give you a -2 penalty to attack for being inappropriately sized.
Frugal 09-05-07, 10:28 AM	I wouldn't say exact same game stats, seeing as one will give you a -2 penalty to attack for being inappropriately sized. Exactly, people like to look at the damage, crit range and damage type and say, "gee, they're the same!" forgetting that in 3.5 there is a difference between a 2-handed medium weapon and a 1-handed large weapon, even if every other game stat is the same. I suspect some of this is a throwback to 3.0's weapon sizing rules where you didn't have penalties for inappropriate size and just used the weapon's size to figure out the effort needed to wield it.