Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serge_P 07-09-07, 09:26 AM	A character of medium size may wield a medium warhammer one-handed. A character of medium size with titan bloodline may wield a large warhammer one-handed. A character of medium size with monkey grip may wield a large warhammer one-handed with -2 on attack rolls. A character of medium size with titan bloodline may wield a huge warhammer 2-handed with -4 on attack rolls. A character of medium size with monkey grip may wield a huge warhammer 2-handed with -6 on attack rolls. May a character of medium size with titan bloodline with monkey grip wield a gargantuan warhammer 2-handed with -6 on attack rolls? (I wouldn't want to be a kobold charged by that character)
Dalthbar 07-09-07, 09:30 AM	A character of medium size with monkey grip may wield a huge warhammer 2-handed with -6 on attack rolls. I don't agree with this part. Per Monkey Grip: "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll". It doesn't say anywhere that you get any benefit after that first size category or that it's even possible. Besides, monkey grip is based off of your character's size. Titan bloodline doesn't change your size, just the size of a weapon you can wield, correct?
Leilond 07-09-07, 09:33 AM	I don't agree with this part. Per Monkey Grip: "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll". It doesn't say anywhere that you get any benefit after that first size category or that it's even possible. Besides, monkey grip is based off of your character's size. Titan bloodline doesn't change your size, just the size of a weapon you can wield, correct? Pheraps he/she's referring to 3.0 rules, that was really different from 3.5 on the "itemd size usage"
Dalthbar 07-09-07, 09:33 AM	Pheraps he/she's referring to 3.0 rules, that was really different from 3.5 on the "itemd size usage" If so, then it's important to note that they're no longer valid since they've been reprinted in 3.5 and those should be used.
Serge_P 07-09-07, 09:35 AM	I don't agree with this part. Per Monkey Grip: "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll". It doesn't say anywhere that you get any benefit after that first size category or that it's even possible. Besides, monkey grip is based off of your character's size. Titan bloodline doesn't change your size, just the size of a weapon you can wield, correct? Correct, damn, I thought that monkey grip allowed to use a weapon of a size category larger then you can use.
Leilond 07-09-07, 09:36 AM	If so, then it's important to note that they're no longer valid since they've been reprinted in 3.5 and those should be used. It depends if he's playing 3.0 or 3.5 I'm not forced to play 3.5 if I prefer 3.0... but you have to "reorganize and reviwe" things if you take them from the 3.5 manuals Let's ear him first, and we can help to make HIS rule work or correct him
J_Vhad 07-09-07, 09:53 AM	Well unless I've gone crazy I was underthe impression that the Titan Bloodline gave you a special ability from the Titan entry in the Monster Manual. The entry in the Monster Manual says nothing about size category in regard to the characters size, merely that a tital wield a great, two handed warhammer without pnalty, and it notes that it is Gargantuan sized. So a small character needs nothing other than 12 character levels and the titan bloodline to be able to wield a two handed Gargantuan hammer. Conclusion: Gnome Barbarians with 4D6 damage warhammers are scary.
tarkin 07-09-07, 10:56 AM	1. Monkey Grip is always based on real size. It does not stack with anything that does not actually change your size. 2. The writers would have to be moronic to have Titan Blood do the same thing regardless of your actual size. They are not that stupid. The only way a Gnome would get the ability to wield a two handed gargantuan hammer is if they were at least Huge sized.
Dalthbar 07-09-07, 10:58 AM	What source is Titan Bloodline in anyway?
J_Vhad 07-09-07, 12:26 PM	Unearthed Aracana. It states they gain the ability as listen in the Titan entry I do believe, and the Titan entry mentions the use of a two handed gargantuan warhammer without penalty. That seems pretty clear to me, so yes I believe they were that stupid.
Hsien 07-09-07, 12:27 PM	What source is Titan Bloodline in anyway? Unearthed Arcana; there are a bunch of different "bloodlines' which give various bonuses/abilities; but they cost 1-3 Character levels to take depending on how strong the bloodline is. Bloodline questions are better suited to the UA section of forums, imo.
Serge_P 07-09-07, 12:27 PM	Unearthed arcana. (Can be found on srd to). @ tarkin: Chosing RaI instead of RaW is cheating:P ;)
ravenshrike 07-09-07, 06:23 PM	1. Monkey Grip is always based on real size. It does not stack with anything that does not actually change your size. 2. The writers would have to be moronic to have Titan Blood do the same thing regardless of your actual size. They are not that stupid. The only way a Gnome would get the ability to wield a two handed gargantuan hammer is if they were at least Huge sized. The gnome in question is 12th level. At 12th level, is a 4d6 melee weapon REALLY a BFD?
the_icon 07-09-07, 07:04 PM	No. Following the pattern that you've set out, a character of medium size with titan bloodline with monkey grip would wield a gargantuan warhammer . . . 3-handed with a -8 penalty on attack rolls. :D
Vaelan 07-10-07, 02:09 AM	The gnome in question is 12th level. At 12th level, is a 4d6 melee weapon REALLY a BFD? Don't forget that three of those supposed levels don't actually grant hitpoints, BAB, skill points, or saving throw bonuses. A 4d6 weapon is really insignificant when you're three levels behind and one level away from the point where Polymorph can (or rather, could if you didn't give up three hitdice for crappy abilities) turn you into something that is Huge (Huge greatswords deal 4d6 damage) and has 37 Strength to boot.
risner 07-11-07, 03:29 PM	A character of medium size with titan bloodline may wield a huge warhammer 2-handed with -4 on attack rolls. A character of medium size with monkey grip may wield a huge warhammer 2-handed with -6 on attack rolls. May a character of medium size with titan bloodline with monkey grip wield a gargantuan warhammer 2-handed with -6 on attack rolls? False False and No. Of note, the titan bloodline ability grants you the same as Monkey Grip without the -2 (basically one size larger.)
J_Vhad 07-11-07, 03:47 PM	Where are you getting that Risner? It says as Titan Special Ability and I can't find anything that relates to the wielders size in the titan entry. Just the statement that it lets them use the gargantuan two handed warhammers with no penalty.
tarkin 07-11-07, 04:09 PM	The gnome in question is 12th level. At 12th level, is a 4d6 melee weapon REALLY a BFD? You don't make rule judgements based on the power of the character that is asking for them. (You should instead base it on the worst case scenario.) If you base it on the current character, then you get a smart 12th level character asking for 6 different 'exceptions' to the real rules, none of which by themselves are a BFD for a 12th level character, but when you put them all together you get a BFD. For example, some guy asking for a Titan sized weapon then ALSO trying to sneak Monkey Grip in. Who knows how many other things like this he is doing. Worse, who knows how many OTHER people out there are going to read this and then do the same thing for their own PC. In this particular case, the titan bloodline ability does not expressely say Gargantuan Instead it says "Use Oversized weapon with a footnote saying "as the titan special ability". The Titan ability, explains this as: Oversized Weapon (Ex) A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty. There are two ways to read this. 1. The ability always lets you use a Gargantuan creature sized two handed warhammer. It ONLY lets you use a two handed warhammer, never letting you use ANY other oversized weapon. That is the 'almost' literal reading, requiring the least amount of interpretation (But it DOES require interpreation. The ability specifically states it only works on TITANS. While you may have the ability, you are NOT a Titan, so a true word for word reading says you get NOTHING.) By this reading, if you become Gargantuan, then it provides NO benefit. 2. The ability lets you use any weapon that is one sized larger than your current size. Please note that in EITHER case, Monkey Grip will never stack with Titan Blood. One sets your weapon size, the other sets it relative to your real size. Interpretation #2 is by FAR the more logical, more reasonable interpreation. Yes, you can rule otherwise, but in my opinion, you are straying from the clear intent of the rules, as demonstrated by the multiple rulings on size change effects such as Monkey Grip, Powerfull Build, etc.
Hsien 07-12-07, 09:20 AM	After having a chance to re-read the blodline info; I concur with Tarkin. The Titan bloodline ability is essentially just a better form of Monkey Grip; Use Oversized Weapon at no penalty; and therefore they would not stack.
Steely_Dan 07-12-07, 10:20 AM	All I know is that the visual of a gnome wielding a Buick sized warhammer is killing me.
Vaelan 07-12-07, 07:05 PM	You don't make rule judgements based on the power of the character that is asking for them. Yeah, you don't make judgements based on the relevant case, you make it based on an irrelevant case! :rolleyes: I would recommend stopping to realize exactly what you're saying here and the ramifications thereof. If you base it on the current character, then you get a smart 12th level character asking for 6 different 'exceptions' to the real rules, none of which by themselves are a BFD for a 12th level character, but when you put them all together you get a BFD. The problem here isn't the procedure, it is the fact that the DM and players can't trust each other. Also, you have discounted the fact that the DM might not be a blithering idiot and can thus see the interactions of those "exceptions" (bad word, by the way, since you're assuming that this is SOP). Even if the DM doesn't see it, the player should make them aware, thus the trust. But yeah, go ahead and posit the idea of a group of people who don't trust each other and a DM who isn't intelligent enough to see something that is incredibly obvious. I'll go ahead keep laughing and/or not caring as desired. For example, some guy asking for a Titan sized weapon then ALSO trying to sneak Monkey Grip in. Who knows how many other things like this he is doing. Stop blaming a lack of trust on the rules. It doesn't work. Worse, who knows how many OTHER people out there are going to read this and then do the same thing for their own PC. The same thing that doesn't work? Who cares? There are two ways to read this. Yeah, the way it is written and the way you want to. This isn't exactly a revolutionary idea. Interpretation #2 is by FAR the more logical, more reasonable interpreation. Reasonable, maybe. Logical? No. It violates one of the most basic logical properties (identity). Also, you really have no business commenting on logic as your post is pretty much just a huge string of non-sequitirs. Yes, you can rule otherwise, but in my opinion, you are straying from the clear intent of the rules, as demonstrated by the multiple rulings on size change effects such as Monkey Grip, Powerfull Build, etc. They aren't in any way related. Monkey Grip and Powerful Build are two abilities that do the same thing. We are talking about one ability with one effect.
risner 07-12-07, 08:47 PM	Where are you getting that Risner? It says as Titan Special Ability and I can't find anything that relates to the wielders size in the titan entry. Just the statement that it lets them use the gargantuan two handed warhammers with no penalty. The ability clearly says it works like the Titan ability. The Titan ability allows a Titan to wield a weapon one size larger. A small Titan bloodline creature would wield a Medium weapon with his titan Wield Oversize Weapon ability. That is the only logical, reasonable, and fair interpretation.
Pandapeep 07-13-07, 12:23 AM	The ability clearly says it works like the Titan ability. The Titan ability allows a Titan to wield a weapon one size larger. A small Titan bloodline creature would wield a Medium weapon with his titan Wield Oversize Weapon ability. That is the only logical, reasonable, and fair interpretation. And since when is D&D logical, reasonable, and fair?
BilopTheFleshwarper 07-13-07, 02:31 AM	wasn't this problem fixed in 3.0 when someone made the pixie that used the gargantuan greatsword? Anyway, it's covered in the FAQ. And to all the people arguing logic, watch out for biting the bullet and logical phalicies.
risner 07-14-07, 01:17 AM	And since when is D&D logical, reasonable, and fair? 3.5 and up? Some parts were in 3.0.
monkman33 07-14-07, 01:53 AM	And to all the people arguing logic, watch out for biting the bullet and logical phalicies. hmmm, kind of gross talking about phallic attributes eh? I do believe the word you were looking for is fallacies. Just try to avoid talk of male genitalia on a D&D board... unless we are discussing an over-sized "monkey-gripped" Spiked Cod-Piece +2. Then anything goes.
J_Vhad 07-14-07, 01:36 PM	The ability clearly says it works like the Titan ability. The Titan ability allows a Titan to wield a weapon one size larger. A small Titan bloodline creature would wield a Medium weapon with his titan Wield Oversize Weapon ability. That is the only logical, reasonable, and fair interpretation. No. The titan ability says "A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatuers) without penalty." Now you might be making a jump and assuming that because the titan is huge and the warhammer is Gargantuan it does the +1 size thing like monkey grip, but it doesn't say that in the MM under the titan ability.
somogyi 07-14-07, 02:26 PM	if titan's blood is like pwerful build, it doesnt stack with monkey grip. per wizards. when i have question i always email wizards that way i know im getting the right answer.
Frugal 07-14-07, 02:33 PM	if titan's blood is like pwerful build, it doesnt stack with monkey grip. per wizards. when i have question i always email wizards that way i know im getting the right answer. Yeah, there's no way it stacks with Monkey Grip since it doesn't change the person's size. No matter how you interpret the ability it boils down to wielding a weapon sized for something larger than your size (debate on if that's simply 1 size greater or explicitly a gargantuan weapon is aside from the point) and since Monkey Grip works off your actual size there's no way it can stack.
Bauglir 07-15-07, 11:57 PM	One might interpret the Titan ability as allowing you to wield a weapon one size category than you otherwise could. Then they might feasibly stack. It might make for characters wielding ridiculously sized weapons, but as funny as that may be, I don't see any balance trouble with it (barring similar interpretations of abilities with similarly poorly worded descriptions). And, of course, it makes Titans with Monkey Grip fair game, which I'd see as a fair trade. "Ok, so you want an extra d6 or two in damage plus a couple of other abilities in exchange for 3 levels? Done. Just so you know, though, this ruling applies to normal Titans too. They give up Blind-Fight to get an extra 2d6 per hit with no change to their CR. Sure, you'll only fight them once or twice, but it'll make it a little interesting, even at level 21. I mean, 28 extra damage per round isn't too much, but it isn't anything to sneeze at, either."
Unclean0ne 07-16-07, 06:01 AM	On a side note, minus the titan bloodline, Does monkeygrip allow a medium character to wield a two handed medium weapon with one hand without penalty?
Frugal 07-16-07, 07:50 AM	On a side note, minus the titan bloodline, Does monkeygrip allow a medium character to wield a two handed medium weapon with one hand without penalty? No, it allows you to wield a weapon 1 size category larger than you are, with no change in effort, at a -2 penalty. Edit: I should add that I think the 3.0 version of the feat did work this way (not sure about the no penalty part).
Vaelan 07-16-07, 05:25 PM	That is the only logical, reasonable, and fair interpretation. Logical? Blatant violation of one of the most basic logical constructs (identity) does not make for a logical argument. Reasonable? Hardly. It is not reasonable to believe that the text means something entirely different than what it says. Fair? That is subjective. It has been outlined in this very thread why the Titan Bloodline still makes for a sub-par character. As such, I consider the interpretation you have fabricated even more unfair than the textually and factually correct interpretation.
risner 07-16-07, 07:32 PM	Logical? Blatant violation of one of the most basic logical constructs (identity) does not make for a logical argument. Reasonable? Hardly. It is not reasonable to believe that the text means something entirely different than what it says. Fair? That is subjective. It has been outlined in this very thread why the Titan Bloodline still makes for a sub-par character. As such, I consider the interpretation you have fabricated even more unfair than the textually and factually correct interpretation. Your rebuttal leaves me disappointed. You didn't provide any substantial reason why the text should be interpreted in a blatantly unreasonably unfair/unbalanced way? So, I must conclude that you agree with me. You believe the text clearly says the person with the titan "Use Oversized Weapon" gains the ability to use a weapon one size larger than themselves with no penalty. It is absurd to the maximum to even think for a second that a Pixie using a Gargantuan Warhammer is remotely RAW or RAI.
EjoThims 07-17-07, 07:50 AM	The wording of Monkey Grip prevents it from stacking "one size larger thn you are" instead of "one size larger than you could normal use." BUT The phrase "(big enough for Gargantuan creatures)" in the Titan's entry seals the deal. Any creature of any size with the Titan Bloodline can wield a Gargantuan Warhammer (and only a Gargantuan warhammer) at no penalty. Now, if the Titan entry specifically said "A Titan wields a Gargantuan warhammer without penalty," then the case could be made for the specific in place of the general. Sadly, this is not the case. As for RaW vs RaI... Learn to read what is written. Unless it's in errata or FAQ, RaI is a myth and nothing more than a glorified houserule. Doesn't mean they're not 100% reasonable houserules that every game should use. Just means you RaI people need to get off your high horses.
EjoThims 07-17-07, 07:53 AM	I must conclude that you agree with me. You believe the text clearly says the person with the titan "Use Oversized Weapon" gains the ability to use a weapon one size larger than themselves with no penalty. It is absurd to the maximum to even think for a second that a Pixie using a Gargantuan Warhammer is remotely RAW or RAI. Sorry to sound so offensive, but what is reasonable and what is written and/ior said are seldom the same. if you truly believe that the written text "clearly says the..."Use Oversized Weapon" gains the ability to use a weapon one size larger than themselves with no penalty" then you are obviously not the reading the same 3.5 MM that I, and the rest of this community have. A pixie, gnome, or even a petal with the bloodline using a Gargantuan Warhammer is 100% RaW, as absurd as it is.
risner 07-17-07, 10:01 AM	The phrase "(big enough for Gargantuan creatures)" in the Titan's entry seals the deal. Any creature of any size with the Titan Bloodline can wield a Gargantuan Warhammer (and only a Gargantuan warhammer) at no penalty. It is dishonest to make the claim that RAW says anyone of any size can use a Gargantuan Warhammer. Titan's special ability is written with the Titan's size in mind and without the bloodline in mind. Titan bloodline specially says you gain the ability like the Titan's ability (which allows the Titan to use a weapon one size larger.) There is no logical, honest, or fair way to interpret the Titan bloodline to anything other than "one size larger." What you have here is a Theoretical Optimization (defined as "how can I twist the RAW by miss interpreting the RAW text for my benefit." You don't have a RAW case.
J_Vhad 07-17-07, 10:33 AM	Where does it say you may wield a weapon one size larger? Why wouldn't you limit it to just two handed warhammers as the titan ability does? RAW is Rules As Written. Nothing about one size larger is written. Nothing about any weapons other than the two handed warhammer is written. The part about the gargantuan warhammer is written. I fail to see how you can justify yours as RAW in any way. All you have to do is read the passage. There is no twisting involved at all.
Frugal 07-17-07, 11:38 AM	The issue is that it's one of the many situations where overly clinging to the RAW creates a nonsensical situation. As written, a fine size creature with the titan bloodline would be able to wield that gargantuan sized warhammer. I'd say that's pretty clearly not the desirable interpretation, or the intent, but it is 100% supported by RAW. Yes, RAW says that's what it does but I think everyone could agree that this is unrealistic and unbalancing. In particular, you're talking about a weapon that's going to weigh more than the creature wielding it. So, do we blindly cling to the RAW and end up with something that's clearly abusive, do we ban the UA material (it is optional after all), or do we come up with a ruling that maintains what the titan's ability is doing yet allows the bloodline ability to work as well? Assuming we don't want broken material and we don't want to just outright ban the material then the ruling option is all that's left. The simplest ruling is that it allows the titan to wield a warhammer 1 size category larger than he is, as a 2-handed weapon, at no penalty. This matches exactly what the titan is doing (as confirmed by the statblock) as well as makes the ability usable by creatures with the bloodline.
risner 07-17-07, 12:12 PM	The simplest ruling is that it allows the titan to wield a warhammer 1 size category larger than he is, as a 2-handed weapon, at no penalty. This matches exactly what the titan is doing (as confirmed by the statblock) as well as makes the ability usable by creatures with the bloodline. Which is exactly how I interpret the RAW. No where does it say in the bloodline that you gain the ability to use a Gargantuan Warhammer, but it does say you gain an ability like the Titan's ability.
Frugal 07-17-07, 01:19 PM	Which is exactly how I interpret the RAW. No where does it say in the bloodline that you gain the ability to use a Gargantuan Warhammer, but it does say you gain an ability like the Titan's ability. Actually, it does, it lists the 12th level major bloodline feature as "Use oversized weapon (Ex)" with the footnote, "As the titan special ability." So that would be that you take the special ability from the titan entry which states: "Oversized Weapon (Ex) A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty." So RAW, that's exactly what it does, but I completely agree that it's nonsensical and broken.
risner 07-17-07, 02:14 PM	So RAW, that's exactly what it does, but I completely agree that it's nonsensical and broken. You and I read the same text and come to different conclusions. I see the "as the titan ability" to unambiguously say "+1 size warhammers." You are welcome to pay it your way, but please don't say it is RAW. Rules require more than a robotic reading and the only way you get to Pixies with Gargantuan Warhammers is a robotic reading.
Frugal 07-17-07, 02:19 PM	You and I read the same text and come to different conclusions. I see the "as the titan ability" to unambiguously say "+1 size warhammers." You are welcome to pay it your way, but please don't say it is RAW. Rules require more than a robotic reading and the only way you get to Pixies with Gargantuan Warhammers is a robotic reading. No, I completely agree that it should be +1 size warhammers, I'm just saying that RAW doesn't say that. Now yes, I see the problem mainly as one of poorly referencing things since the titan's ability was written in isolation as a special ability only for that entry and then later on we have another rule referencing the same ability with no regard for how it applies to creatures of other sizes. Now that I think of it, there's also an issue with the titan ability as written in that it doesn't even cover what happens if you advance the titan so that it's gargantuan (31-60 HD).
Sargeras 07-17-07, 03:44 PM	Okay, this thread is way too long for what was asked. Monkey Grip lets you use weapons (at a -2 penalty) that are one size category larger than you ARE. Thus, if you are small, you can wield a medium-sized weapon, if you are medium, you can wield a large-sized weapon, if you are large, you can wield a huge-sized weapon, all at a -2 penalty. Monkey Grip is based off of your actual, current size, and lets you wield a weapon sized for a creature one size bigger than you are. Monkey Grip doesn't stack with anything that doesn't alter your actual size. I hope everyone knows and agrees with that. Now, there have been similar threads about Powerful Build and Monkey Grip, and (as per Monkey Grip's wording), they don't stack. You use one or the other, since they both are based off of your actual size. Unless that changes, the biggest weapon you can wield doesn't change either. The Titan's Oversized Weapon description sounds like it has a case-specific wording of the results of Powerful Build. Note that I said "sounds like". This is my opinion, and the conclusion I draw from all this argument. It's not RAW, but that doesn't matter if RAW doesn't make sense. And, at times, it doesn't. A tiny-sized creature could not wield a gargantuan-sized weapon, even if the "RAW" says it could (if it had the Titan's [case-specific] Oversized Weapon ability) and neither could a small, medium, or large creature (without significant penalties). A huge creature could wield a gargantuan-sized weapon if they have Powerful Build, the Oversized Weapon ability, or the Monkey Grip feat, with the latter being at a -2 penalty on attack rolls. None of those stack, by the way. So an easy way to let this make sense (not necessarily RAW) is to say that the Titan has Powerful Build in the case of his warhammer. I personally wouldn't limit this to only a warhammer, but that's just me. So, when your Titan-bloodlined character gets to level 12, he/she gains Powerful Build (which is powerful enough as is, and, as a benefit, you could use whatever weapon you wanted, I suppose). So, the real answer is, according to me, Monkey Grip doesn't stack with that particular ability, just like it doesn't stack with Powerful build. That's how I would rule it if I were DMing for you. But ask your DM, if they say it's okay to let them stack, then, well, that's up to him/her. It's not "RAW", but that doesn't matter. It's your game. Make sure they know what you now know about it, though. Show them this post, if you want. I wrote it (to the best of my ability) so that you can do just that. Have fun! That's what DnD is for.
EjoThims 07-17-07, 07:52 PM	The issue is that it's one of the many situations where overly clinging to the RAW creates a nonsensical situation. That's what Rule 0 is for. It is absurd, ridiculous, and unbalanced that the Titan bloodline lets anyone of any size wield a gargantuan warhammer and only a gargantuan warhammer without penalty. But that is how it is written. That is the rule. When someone asks about a rule, RaW is what should be quoted, followed by advice on houserules if desired. "The Titan bloodline lets anyone of any size wield a gargantuan warhammer and only a gargantuan warhammer without penalty. This is probably an oversight or poor wording in the feat, however, and any reasonable DM would houserule it to being able to use weapons (or perhaps just warhammers) one size larger without penalty. Regardless, it does not stack with Monkey Grip."
EjoThims 07-17-07, 07:53 PM	Which is exactly how I interpret the RAW. Your "Rules as I interpret them" is not and will never be the RaW of this game, no matter how reasonable they are.
EjoThims 07-17-07, 07:55 PM	You and I read the same text and come to different conclusions. I see the "as the titan ability" to unambiguously say "+1 size warhammers." You are welcome to pay it your way, but please don't say it is RAW. Rules require more than a robotic reading and the only way you get to Pixies with Gargantuan Warhammers is a robotic reading. Rules are rules. To interpret them is to go against what is written. Fortunately there are things like Rule 0 and DM Fiat that are intentionally designed to handle these cases. But this does not change the RaW, no matter how ridiculous it may be.
risner 07-18-07, 12:29 AM	But this does not change the RaW, no matter how ridiculous it may be. You are welcome to say it is RAW, but I am also welcome to disagree and say your view is not in fact RAW. This level of absurdity (robotic application of text) is disruptive to the game in general. In no other part of this universe are rules robotically applied. Rule is a synonym for law. No rule is ever applied in a vacuum in the way you want to apply the rules of the game. So it is just plain wrong to keep stomping saying "RAW says this, so this absurd thing is the only way to read and apply that rule." It simply isn't true. I can stomp my foot and say my interpretation is as much RAW as yours.
EjoThims 07-18-07, 02:30 AM	You are welcome to say it is RAW, but I am also welcome to disagree and say your view is not in fact RAW. You are welcome to, but you'd be wrong. RaW is the "rules as they are written." Not the "rules as I think they should be written" or the "rules as I decide to interpret them." Mechanical RaW is the only true standard from DM to DM and game to game. It does exist in a vacuum, as the caveat that it is all subject to change at the DM's will is built into the system. This absurd thing is the only way to read the rule. That does not mean it's the only way to apply it, as any reasonable DM would exercise rule 0 and houserule it. But houserules, DM fiat, and rule 0 =/= RaW. Please stop spreading this blatant, stubborn, intentional ignorance of the facts. It's like saying that Grilled Chicken is Fried Chicken because everyone COULD cook Fried Chicken with a different batter and you prefer it batterless and grilled. Edit: Apparently the boards do not like my 'does not equal' symbol. Changed to imitation version.
Frugal 07-18-07, 08:01 AM	You are welcome to say it is RAW, but I am also welcome to disagree and say your view is not in fact RAW. This level of absurdity (robotic application of text) is disruptive to the game in general. In no other part of this universe are rules robotically applied. Rule is a synonym for law. No rule is ever applied in a vacuum in the way you want to apply the rules of the game. So it is just plain wrong to keep stomping saying "RAW says this, so this absurd thing is the only way to read and apply that rule." It simply isn't true. I can stomp my foot and say my interpretation is as much RAW as yours. Risner, in this thread I've seen you accuse both EjoThims and me of "robotically" reading the text when we're both in fact agreeing with you that the end result is absurd, unbalanced and should not be allowed. We're essentially arguing the same point, that the rule should be applied to be "1 size larger warhammer as a 2-handed weapon at no penalty." The only point we're disagreeing on is whether this is RAW or whether it's an interpretation or house rule. More fundamentally, I think we're disagreeing over what RAW means. RAW means "rules as written," it's meant to represent an absolutely strict reading of the rules, and is useful for on the boards because it helps clarify that what you're saying is simply, "if you follow the strict letter of the rules." Now what you're doing is looking at the rule that says a titan can wield a gargantuan warhammer, then looking at the fact that a titan is huge sized and then saying that the rule means that it allows them to wield a warhammer 1 size category larger than they are. That's clearly not RAW as the only way you can get to that point is by looking past what the rules for the special ability says and then applying some analysis to it. Now I happen to agree with your interpretation in this situation, I'm just pointing out that on the boards you shouldn't go around claiming that it's RAW and then accusing everyone else of a robotic reading of the rules when they disagree over whether the rules actually say that, even when they're agreeing with your final conclusion. Bottom line is that the rules explicitly state that it's a gargantuan warhammer. This raises a lot of issues though. Off the top of my head, you can advance a titan to gargantuan and, as written, they lose any benefit from that ability but you could reduce them to fine and they could still wield it, not to mention the issues with the titan bloodline. Is this absurd? Absolutely. Is it unbalancing? Definitely. Is it what the rules intended? Probably not. All of this can lead us to argue that RAI (rules as intended) are that it's +1 size warhammer but that doesn't change the fact that RAW says what it says.
J_Vhad 07-18-07, 09:11 AM	Doesn't equipment reduce a size when you reduce something? Maybe I'm going crazy, I don't have my books at work with me, but a reduced titan wouldn't be able to wield the thing at no penalty according to the RAW. Likewise an increased titan, wouldn't gain any ability from the special ability. You are not stating RAW Risner. RAW is what the ability says. Point out to me where it mentions anything about one size larger in the ability. Rules as Written doesn't mean, Rules however the heck I decide to interpret them. Otherwise I could say that attacking requires you to roll a chicken to hit because my chicken is named D20 and thus everyone in every game has to roll a chicken by RAW. I personally don't even see where this +1 size thing comes from. The ability is allowing him to wield a gargantuan warhammer two-handed at no penalty. The only reasonable way to go about this if you arn't following RAW is to say they don't take a penalty for using a weapon a size larger in two hands (or warhammer specifically if you want to stick them with that limitation.) The titan does 4D6 with it's warhammer which is what a one handed warhammer does at gargantuan size. The titan is huge and thus can use gargantuan weapons two-handed at a -2 usually. The ability gets rid of the -2, thats it.
Frugal 07-18-07, 09:18 AM	Maybe I'm going crazy, I don't have my books at work with me, but a reduced titan wouldn't be able to wield the thing at no penalty according to the RAW. Well, unless the SRD is different (happens sometimes) it says, "A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty." There's nothing in there about the size of the wielder (which is the whole problem with the titan bloodline thing too) so a strict RAW rules lawyer argument would be that even if reduced to fine the titan could wield it. Now of course it would have to be a warhammer that it picked up after being reduced of course.
risner 07-18-07, 11:14 AM	Risner, in this thread I've seen you accuse both EjoThims and me of "robotically" reading the text when we're both in fact agreeing with you that the end result is absurd, unbalanced and should not be allowed. We're essentially arguing the same point, that the rule should be applied to be "1 size larger warhammer as a 2-handed weapon at no penalty." The only point we're disagreeing on is whether this is RAW or whether it's an interpretation or house rule. I know, and it is my position that saying (arguing or suggesting) that the RAW is tiny use gargantuan is in fact not RAW. It is in fact not the rules as written, it is rather rules as I would like to robotically interpret them incorrectly or RAIWLTRITI. In other words, it isn't RAW and no amount of saying "its RAW" will change that.
EjoThims 07-18-07, 11:36 AM	At this point I am honestly starting to beleive that your stubborn ignorance may in fact NOT be intentional. You are aware what the word "written" means, aren't you? Because there is no (zero, nada, nihil, nien, zilch, one less than one, the limit of dividing by infinity) interpretation in RaW. If you have to interpret something, it is not RaW. RaW IS a literal, mechanical reading of the rules. Why is this useful? Because it is standard. It is the same from game to game and DM to DM simply BECAUSE of this mechanical and literal reading. Should RaW always be followed 100%? By NO means! House rules and rule 0 exist and are encouraged for a reason. They make the game more fair and fun for each group. But on these boards and discussions between players of different groups and games, we need an unbending standard by which to discuss, question, and compare the basis of this game we all enjoy. That standard is the universal, unbending, literal, mechanical RaW. You don't have to like it. Just stop being such a fool as to claim it's something it's not. For the sake of your own dignity if for nothing else.
Frugal 07-18-07, 11:43 AM	I know, and it is my position that saying (arguing or suggesting) that the RAW is tiny use gargantuan is in fact not RAW. It is in fact not the rules as written, it is rather rules as I would like to robotically interpret them incorrectly or RAIWLTRITI. In other words, it isn't RAW and no amount of saying "its RAW" will change that. *Sigh* where does it say otherwise? All the RAW says is a titan can wield a gargantuan warhammer at no penalty. Now then, suppose we have a titan who's shrunk to tiny, is there anything in the ability to say that it still wouldn't allow for the ability to work. Now what you're arguing is that you need to go beyond the RAW and I completely agree with that but to suggest that it's not what's written is just as ridiculous as the situation that occurs if you allow it to work as written in that situation. Again, I completely agree that a strict reading of RAW tends to create a number of unwanted situations, but that doesn't change that it's what's written. When discussing such things on the boards it becomes important simply because individual interpretations will vary and it's crucial that the distinction be made between what the rules say and how you interpret those rules. For example, "RAW says that a titan can wield a gargantuan warhammer, I rule that to mean that the ability allows them to wield a warhammer 1 size larger than they are as a 2-handed weapon at no penalty" compared to, "RAW says that it allows them to wield a warhammer 1 size larger than they are as a 2-handed weapon at no penalty." The first is completely valid and a good, arguably the best, ruling for how to apply the Titan's ability to situations that weren't anticipated (titan bloodline, titan's own size changed, etc), but the 2nd is patently false because the ability says nothing of the sort. In order for the ability to work that way you have to take what the ability actually says, look at the size of the creature in question and determine that it's 1 size larger, look at the statblock and determine he's wielding it 2-handed (not stated in the ability), and then say that your interpretation is that it works that way, or even that you believe that was the intent of the writers (RAI). I'm not saying that you're not making a reasonable interpretation, I'm just saying that it's not RAW. For an example outside of D&D, take the sentence, "Samuel Clemens wrote Huckleberry Finn." Now what you're trying to do is to say that the sentence says, "Mark Twain wrote Huckleberry Finn." Now it might be true that Mark Twain was one of Samuel Clemens' pen names so that part would be true, it requires outside knowledge beyond what's in the sentence. No matter how true it might be that Mark Twain wrote Huckleberry Finn you can't change the fact that the sentence is saying that Samuel Clemens did.
J_Vhad 07-18-07, 11:56 AM	Well, unless the SRD is different (happens sometimes) it says, "A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty." There's nothing in there about the size of the wielder (which is the whole problem with the titan bloodline thing too) so a strict RAW rules lawyer argument would be that even if reduced to fine the titan could wield it. Now of course it would have to be a warhammer that it picked up after being reduced of course. Sorry, I was saying that in connection with the sentence before it. I don't know what type titans are off the top of my head, but say someone were to cast reduce titan (or the equivalent spell) and take him down to large, his gargantuan hammer becomes a huge hammer, and the penalty comes back. The titan can't use the ability at all because the hammer is no longer gargantuan. In other words, it isn't RAW and no amount of saying "its RAW" will change that. RAW means Rules as Written. You take the literal meaning of everything. The written rules do say what we've claimed. No amount of arguing changes the rules printed in the rulebook at the moment. Those are the RAW. Now, your interpretation of the Rules is not RAW. You've taken what the ability does and looked outside the box to come up with another inerpretation. The rules do not say the ability does what you claim it does. It is not RAW. You can argue that RAW is illogical or broken and shouldn't be followed, but you can't argue what is RAW without just looking like an idiot.
risner 07-19-07, 01:55 AM	Look, the Titan ability says the Titan can use a Warhammer of gargantuan size. The Titan Bloodline says to grant the player an ability "as the titan Use Oversized Weapon ability." The RAW doesn't say "grant them the Titan ability", it says "as the" ability. Several have incorrectly interpreted "as the" the same as "give them the exact ability" and that is simply wrong. The RAW in this particular case must be an interpreted thing and there should only be one interpretation. You folks are coming up with a bogus interpretation and calling it RAW. Things we can agree on: 1) A Tiny Titan uses a Gargantuan Warhammer (because that is RAW.) 2) A Gargantuan Titan uses a Gargantuan Warhammer (because that is RAW; despite the fact Dragon 357 page 63 shows a Gargantuan Titan using a Colossal Warhammer which shows RAI.) 3) Any Titan Bloodline creatures uses a Warhammer one size larger than their unadvanced size (if they start at Medium then they get a Large Warhammer.) (RAW) 4) Any Titan Bloodline creatures loses their ability if they advance in size (if they start at Medium then advance to Large they still only get Large Warhammer.) (RAW) 5) Any use of the Titan ability or the Titan Bloodline ability grants their power only for Warhammers. (RAW)
EjoThims 07-19-07, 04:39 AM	3) Any Titan Bloodline creatures uses a Warhammer one size larger than their unadvanced size (if they start at Medium then they get a Large Warhammer.) (RAW) 4) Any Titan Bloodline creatures loses their ability if they advance in size (if they start at Medium then advance to Large they still only get Large Warhammer.) (RAW) While that is how it SHOULD wok, this is once more RaI, not RaW. Unearthed Arcanana states "As the titan special ability." The titan ability specifies Gargantuan greathammer. There's nothing else to consider if you're speaking of the RaW.
Pandapeep 07-19-07, 06:26 AM	God, do you people honestly have nothing better to do? I mean you already play D&D, please, try to be less nerdy. This is useless semantic bickering and has drug a simple two response thread on into infinity. It's simple, the RAW says any creature can use a G Warhammer and one can logically assume the RAW is wrong and move the hell on with your life. Besides, if your DM is dumb enough to let your Gnome use a warhammer 4 size categories larger then he should, well he deserves everything you'll dish out. In other words you're both right. It is RAW, but in this case the RAW is wrong and should be applied in a different manner. Also, read this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=592166 it just makes sense