monkeygrip help [Archive] - Wizards Community

monkeygrip help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tuathaan
01-26-08, 09:28 PM Re-rolling and starting a new campaign from scratch and today one of the PC's was looking to take the Monkey Grip feat from the complete warrior. I understand completly how the feat works though he is curious as to if he can duel weild medium scyths.. My first reaction to this would be no. considering how awkward it would be to effectivly weild two scyths in battle.. he is under the assumption it would be at a -2 -2 penalty and that since the feat allows you to weild a large one hand weapon in two hands and a medium two hand in one(as a medium humanoid).. then why not two scyths.. im not one to try and limit imagination or set up barriers for PC's but I just dont know if this is viable.. Im thinking of letting him pay more for "modified" scyths or giving him a slightly larger penalty.. I dont know.. I just want some opinions. helpps plz :D
dman11235
01-26-08, 09:36 PM Monkey grip doesn't let you do that. It lets you wield a larger weapon, not two same size ones. Also, think of it this way: could you dual wield two small sythes? No, you can't, it's still a two-handed weapon. The one-hand to two-hand argument only works with longsword and greatsword, since a large longsword is mechanically and aesthetically the same as a greatsword.
forrestfire15
01-26-08, 09:39 PM The answer is no, he cannot dual weild medium scyths. Monkey Grip only allows you to weild larger weapons without changing their catagory. He could Weild a large scyth in two hands at a -2 penalty.

If he wants to dual-weild scyth-like weapons, I suggest that you use the stats for a light or heavy pick and rename it to be called "Mini-Scyth" or something like that.
tuathaan
01-26-08, 09:47 PM Thanks for the swift replys. I put more thought into it and I agree. thanks again!
Cartigan
01-26-08, 11:25 PM The answer is no, he cannot dual weild medium scyths. Monkey Grip only allows you to weild larger weapons without changing their catagory.
However, if you read Monkey Grip, you can see that is based on the weapon size rules - a medium one handed weapon is a light weapon for a large creature and a one handed weapon for a large creature is a two handed weapon for medium creature. So it could theoretically let you dual wield scythes. The problem is they are at least one-handed weapons now, and are insane wielding penalties.
Krusk
01-27-08, 12:08 AM They are based off the weapon size rules, but do not use them. Any descison to let you wield a two handed weapon in one hand is a houserule. -although not really a bad one considering how bad a feat this is-.
Knightblde
01-27-08, 08:53 AM Tell your player to use Strongarm Bracers from the Magic Item Compendium. That will allow him to use a large sythe in two hands, or a medium sythe in each hand with only the two weapon penalties.

Monkey grip doesn't let you do that. It lets you wield a larger weapon, not two same size ones. Also, think of it this way: could you dual wield two small sythes? No, you can't, it's still a two-handed weapon. The one-hand to two-hand argument only works with longsword and greatsword, since a large longsword is mechanically and aesthetically the same as a greatsword.

This is true for Monkey Grip, but a lot of this is not true otherwise. Normally a medium creature can wield 2 small sythes at the same time with the size penalty applied as well as the two weapon fighting penalty. A weapon only absolutly requires two hands if it states so in it's description, like long bow does.

Your player will find a lot more use out of the Strongarm Bracers than Monkey Grip.
Spikes01k
01-27-08, 01:35 PM I believe he could while a single scythe one handed, it would basiclly be a large size "Pick, heavy". But if I remember the feat properly you can not wield a large size weapon in your off hand, or something of the sort. If he wants to do what he is thinking, he needs a pair of strong arm bracors (MiC).
Rulebook
01-28-08, 02:17 AM a large heavy pick would do (about) the same damage as a scythe. scythe does a little better average damage (and the 2h thing)

also large kamas would work too.
ToastedAmphibian
01-28-08, 06:58 PM If he wants to wield two schyths, tell him to be a Thri-Kreen
4 hands=Easy wielding of two scyths. If he still wants to take monkey grip, he can now use two large scyths.
Spikes01k
01-29-08, 05:37 PM a large heavy pick would do (about) the same damage as a scythe. scythe does a little better average damage (and the 2h thing)

also large kamas would work too.

So make them cost a little more and make it 2D4 instead of a D8, I don't think it would be all that unbalancing.
Drackthor
01-29-08, 08:20 PM I'm looking at the Monkey Grip feat in Sword & Fist: A Guide to Fighters and Monks, and it says you can use a weapon one size larger then you in one hand, I'm no expert, but wouldn't that mean that he CAN in fact use 2 Scythes, as long as they are 1 size category larger then him? No, he couldn't use 2 Medium scythes as a Medium Character, but since you CAN use a weapon 1 size bigger then you in one hand, that would, according to the wording I'm seeing, mean that yeah, he could have a large scythe in each hand.
mplindustries
01-29-08, 09:16 PM I'm looking at the Monkey Grip feat in Sword & Fist: A Guide to Fighters and Monks, and it says you can use a weapon one size larger then you in one hand, I'm no expert, but wouldn't that mean that he CAN in fact use 2 Scythes, as long as they are 1 size category larger then him? No, he couldn't use 2 Medium scythes as a Medium Character, but since you CAN use a weapon 1 size bigger then you in one hand, that would, according to the wording I'm seeing, mean that yeah, he could have a large scythe in each hand.

Both Monkey Grip and weapon sizing have been updated in 3.5. The relevant rules are in the SRD and Complete Warrior.

The end result is, no, you can't reduce the number of hands a weapon takes to wield normally, you can only negate the increase in hands required to wield an oversized one. This, I believe, was already concluded in this thread.
SkipSandwich
02-01-08, 02:10 PM I know of only one weapon that a medium size character can monkey grip without loseing out compared to power attack, and that weapon is the great axe.
1d12 base for 6.5 pts ave damage -2 for power attack gets +4 for 10.5 ave damage
Monkey Grip becomes 3d6 base for 10.5 ave damage at -2 penalty.

:EDIT: nevermind, I just found another one, the longsword (and by extension, all one handed weapons with a base damage of 1d8)
longsword 1d8 base for 4.5 pts of ave damage -2 for power attack gets +2 for 6.5 pts of ave damage
large longsword 2d6 base for 7 pts of ave damage with a -2 penalty.
so in this case, it actually is very slightly better then power attack, but only if you're wielding the weapon one handed.

Bastard Sword 1d10 base for 5.5 pts of ave damage -2 for power attack gets +2 for 7.5 ave damage (1h)
Bastard Sword (2h) -2 for power attack gets +4 for 9.5 ave damage
large bastard sword 2d8 base for 9 pts of ave damage at -2 penalty.

so yeah, for the longsword and bastard sword, monkey grip DOES improve your damage, but only if you're wielding the weapon one handed. and the only two-handed weapon that get's back equal returns from monkey grip is the greataxe.
Divisionbyzer0
02-01-08, 09:30 PM Re-rolling and starting a new campaign from scratch and today one of the PC's was looking to take the Monkey Grip feat from the complete warrior. I understand completly how the feat works though he is curious as to if he can duel weild medium scyths.. My first reaction to this would be no. considering how awkward it would be to effectivly weild two scyths in battle.. he is under the assumption it would be at a -2 -2 penalty and that since the feat allows you to weild a large one hand weapon in two hands and a medium two hand in one(as a medium humanoid).. then why not two scyths.. im not one to try and limit imagination or set up barriers for PC's but I just dont know if this is viable.. Im thinking of letting him pay more for "modified" scyths or giving him a slightly larger penalty.. I dont know.. I just want some opinions. helpps plz :D

It would be -6 / -6, and only if he had the two weapon fighting feat since he would no longer be using a light weapon off hand and would thus incur a -4 / -4 on top of the monkey grip's - 2 for each. Without two weapon fighting it would be like -8 / -12. Tho it may look fearsome and intimidating it's not the best tactical choice to wield a scythe in each hand.

Basically monkey grip wasn't designed to abused two weapon fighting style like this.

So, he can do it, but he's going to be missing so much that he might as well just being using a scythe in one hand and a tower shield in the other.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tuathaan 01-26-08, 09:28 PM	Re-rolling and starting a new campaign from scratch and today one of the PC's was looking to take the Monkey Grip feat from the complete warrior. I understand completly how the feat works though he is curious as to if he can duel weild medium scyths.. My first reaction to this would be no. considering how awkward it would be to effectivly weild two scyths in battle.. he is under the assumption it would be at a -2 -2 penalty and that since the feat allows you to weild a large one hand weapon in two hands and a medium two hand in one(as a medium humanoid).. then why not two scyths.. im not one to try and limit imagination or set up barriers for PC's but I just dont know if this is viable.. Im thinking of letting him pay more for "modified" scyths or giving him a slightly larger penalty.. I dont know.. I just want some opinions. helpps plz :D
dman11235 01-26-08, 09:36 PM	Monkey grip doesn't let you do that. It lets you wield a larger weapon, not two same size ones. Also, think of it this way: could you dual wield two small sythes? No, you can't, it's still a two-handed weapon. The one-hand to two-hand argument only works with longsword and greatsword, since a large longsword is mechanically and aesthetically the same as a greatsword.
forrestfire15 01-26-08, 09:39 PM	The answer is no, he cannot dual weild medium scyths. Monkey Grip only allows you to weild larger weapons without changing their catagory. He could Weild a large scyth in two hands at a -2 penalty. If he wants to dual-weild scyth-like weapons, I suggest that you use the stats for a light or heavy pick and rename it to be called "Mini-Scyth" or something like that.
tuathaan 01-26-08, 09:47 PM	Thanks for the swift replys. I put more thought into it and I agree. thanks again!
Cartigan 01-26-08, 11:25 PM	The answer is no, he cannot dual weild medium scyths. Monkey Grip only allows you to weild larger weapons without changing their catagory. However, if you read Monkey Grip, you can see that is based on the weapon size rules - a medium one handed weapon is a light weapon for a large creature and a one handed weapon for a large creature is a two handed weapon for medium creature. So it could theoretically let you dual wield scythes. The problem is they are at least one-handed weapons now, and are insane wielding penalties.
Krusk 01-27-08, 12:08 AM	They are based off the weapon size rules, but do not use them. Any descison to let you wield a two handed weapon in one hand is a houserule. -although not really a bad one considering how bad a feat this is-.
Knightblde 01-27-08, 08:53 AM	Tell your player to use Strongarm Bracers from the Magic Item Compendium. That will allow him to use a large sythe in two hands, or a medium sythe in each hand with only the two weapon penalties. Monkey grip doesn't let you do that. It lets you wield a larger weapon, not two same size ones. Also, think of it this way: could you dual wield two small sythes? No, you can't, it's still a two-handed weapon. The one-hand to two-hand argument only works with longsword and greatsword, since a large longsword is mechanically and aesthetically the same as a greatsword. This is true for Monkey Grip, but a lot of this is not true otherwise. Normally a medium creature can wield 2 small sythes at the same time with the size penalty applied as well as the two weapon fighting penalty. A weapon only absolutly requires two hands if it states so in it's description, like long bow does. Your player will find a lot more use out of the Strongarm Bracers than Monkey Grip.
Spikes01k 01-27-08, 01:35 PM	I believe he could while a single scythe one handed, it would basiclly be a large size "Pick, heavy". But if I remember the feat properly you can not wield a large size weapon in your off hand, or something of the sort. If he wants to do what he is thinking, he needs a pair of strong arm bracors (MiC).
Rulebook 01-28-08, 02:17 AM	a large heavy pick would do (about) the same damage as a scythe. scythe does a little better average damage (and the 2h thing) also large kamas would work too.
ToastedAmphibian 01-28-08, 06:58 PM	If he wants to wield two schyths, tell him to be a Thri-Kreen 4 hands=Easy wielding of two scyths. If he still wants to take monkey grip, he can now use two large scyths.
Spikes01k 01-29-08, 05:37 PM	a large heavy pick would do (about) the same damage as a scythe. scythe does a little better average damage (and the 2h thing) also large kamas would work too. So make them cost a little more and make it 2D4 instead of a D8, I don't think it would be all that unbalancing.
Drackthor 01-29-08, 08:20 PM	I'm looking at the Monkey Grip feat in Sword & Fist: A Guide to Fighters and Monks, and it says you can use a weapon one size larger then you in one hand, I'm no expert, but wouldn't that mean that he CAN in fact use 2 Scythes, as long as they are 1 size category larger then him? No, he couldn't use 2 Medium scythes as a Medium Character, but since you CAN use a weapon 1 size bigger then you in one hand, that would, according to the wording I'm seeing, mean that yeah, he could have a large scythe in each hand.
mplindustries 01-29-08, 09:16 PM	I'm looking at the Monkey Grip feat in Sword & Fist: A Guide to Fighters and Monks, and it says you can use a weapon one size larger then you in one hand, I'm no expert, but wouldn't that mean that he CAN in fact use 2 Scythes, as long as they are 1 size category larger then him? No, he couldn't use 2 Medium scythes as a Medium Character, but since you CAN use a weapon 1 size bigger then you in one hand, that would, according to the wording I'm seeing, mean that yeah, he could have a large scythe in each hand. Both Monkey Grip and weapon sizing have been updated in 3.5. The relevant rules are in the SRD and Complete Warrior. The end result is, no, you can't reduce the number of hands a weapon takes to wield normally, you can only negate the increase in hands required to wield an oversized one. This, I believe, was already concluded in this thread.
SkipSandwich 02-01-08, 02:10 PM	I know of only one weapon that a medium size character can monkey grip without loseing out compared to power attack, and that weapon is the great axe. 1d12 base for 6.5 pts ave damage -2 for power attack gets +4 for 10.5 ave damage Monkey Grip becomes 3d6 base for 10.5 ave damage at -2 penalty. :EDIT: nevermind, I just found another one, the longsword (and by extension, all one handed weapons with a base damage of 1d8) longsword 1d8 base for 4.5 pts of ave damage -2 for power attack gets +2 for 6.5 pts of ave damage large longsword 2d6 base for 7 pts of ave damage with a -2 penalty. so in this case, it actually is very slightly better then power attack, but only if you're wielding the weapon one handed. Bastard Sword 1d10 base for 5.5 pts of ave damage -2 for power attack gets +2 for 7.5 ave damage (1h) Bastard Sword (2h) -2 for power attack gets +4 for 9.5 ave damage large bastard sword 2d8 base for 9 pts of ave damage at -2 penalty. so yeah, for the longsword and bastard sword, monkey grip DOES improve your damage, but only if you're wielding the weapon one handed. and the only two-handed weapon that get's back equal returns from monkey grip is the greataxe.
Divisionbyzer0 02-01-08, 09:30 PM	Re-rolling and starting a new campaign from scratch and today one of the PC's was looking to take the Monkey Grip feat from the complete warrior. I understand completly how the feat works though he is curious as to if he can duel weild medium scyths.. My first reaction to this would be no. considering how awkward it would be to effectivly weild two scyths in battle.. he is under the assumption it would be at a -2 -2 penalty and that since the feat allows you to weild a large one hand weapon in two hands and a medium two hand in one(as a medium humanoid).. then why not two scyths.. im not one to try and limit imagination or set up barriers for PC's but I just dont know if this is viable.. Im thinking of letting him pay more for "modified" scyths or giving him a slightly larger penalty.. I dont know.. I just want some opinions. helpps plz :D It would be -6 / -6, and only if he had the two weapon fighting feat since he would no longer be using a light weapon off hand and would thus incur a -4 / -4 on top of the monkey grip's - 2 for each. Without two weapon fighting it would be like -8 / -12. Tho it may look fearsome and intimidating it's not the best tactical choice to wield a scythe in each hand. Basically monkey grip wasn't designed to abused two weapon fighting style like this. So, he can do it, but he's going to be missing so much that he might as well just being using a scythe in one hand and a tower shield in the other.