Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Light_Colonel 02-22-07, 11:52 PM	Alright, so apparently a Monk can take two-weapon fighting right? And flurry, etc. etc. My question is this, if a monk was armed with a two-handed weapon like say a Quarterstaff, how would that work out exactly? Assuming the Monk is kicking for his primary attacks, the Quarterstaff is the off-hand weapon. Does he only take a single extra attack? (It would seem so) Can he take Multi-Weapon fighting and get a Primary attack with his feet and two "off-hand" attacks with the Quarterstaff? (I don't think he could, since MWF specifies needing 3 or more hands) If he can't use MWF or whatever to gain a bunch of attacks, the next question still remains one way or the other.. Since the quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon, does he still get strength and a half on it? Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only one-half the character’s Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus. Previous questions answered, scroll through the thread to see that it is now about a monk making primary attacks with feet, then taking off-hand attack with a two-handed weapon.
runestar 02-23-07, 12:49 AM	It doesn't work that way. You cannot wield a quarterstaff with one hand. You can choose to TWF+ flurry it, but any unarmed strikes you make will be part of the pool of total attack you get. Say 1 first lv monk with TWFing wields a quarterstaff. He gets 3 attacks with TWF+flurry. You can spend these 3 attacks on any combination of unarmed strikes and quarterstaff hits, but the total number of attacks cannot exceed 3.:) And you take the TWF feat, not the MWF feat.
Light_Colonel 02-23-07, 12:59 AM	Ah fair enough.. However, the question would still remain about the strength bonus. If the "off-hand" attack comes from the quarterstaff, is it at half strength, strength and a half or 1.5*(0.5*STR)?
kelvinaw273 02-23-07, 01:12 AM	Ah fair enough.. However, the question would still remain about the strength bonus. If the "off-hand" attack comes from the quarterstaff, is it at half strength, strength and a half or 1.5*(0.5*STR)? As with any double weapon, unless you swing it as a single-end weapon it counts as 'weapon' at one end and 'light off-hand weapon' at the other. That is to say, you can ignor TWF and make one strike at strength bonus * 1.5, or else two attacks, one at strength bonus, the other at strength bonus * 0.5.
Light_Colonel 02-23-07, 01:48 AM	As with any double weapon, unless you swing it as a single-end weapon it counts as 'weapon' at one end and 'light off-hand weapon' at the other. That is to say, you can ignor TWF and make one strike at strength bonus * 1.5, or else two attacks, one at strength bonus, the other at strength bonus * 0.5. Right but supposing our hypothetical Monk is using the Quarterstaff as a two-hand weapon and is getting his "off hand" attack with it, what happens then? This is essentially a hypothetical, as no monk in his right mind would take the massive penalties to hit involved since the "off hand weapon" doing it this way is not a light weapon... But I am still curious as to what would happen... how would the rules sync-up in this situation? Half-STR? 1.5 STR? Some unholy amalgamation of the two?
wonlee76 02-23-07, 02:00 AM	Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands. Simply put, the rules are contradictory in your example only because the rules are set up as "one or the other" since it doesn't explicitly spell out a situation where the offhand weapon is a two handed weapon. Ultimately, its up to the DM. Personally, I would say the Off Hand Weapon clause takes precedence where you're TWF. Plus considering the monk's flurry of blow abilities explicitly doesn't permit a monk to get 1.5 strength bonus when using a staff, your hypothetical feels like a cheap way to get around that restriction. Also, in most situations where there's extra attacks whether its due to multiple natural attacks or TWF, the "offhand" attack gets only 1/2 strength bonus while the primary gets full strength bonus.
runestar 02-23-07, 02:00 AM	Right but supposing our hypothetical Monk is using the Quarterstaff as a two-hand weapon and is getting his "off hand" attack with it, what happens then? You can't. You either wield the quarterstaff as a 2-handed weapon, or a double weapon. As a double weapon, your off-hand is treated as light when TWFing, so the penalties aren't as stiff(only -2 to hit). You wield it as a 2-handed weapon, you get a attack at 1.5 str bonus. That's it. You wield it as a double weapon and TWF with it, you get 2 attacks. Your main hand gets 1.0 str bonus, your off-hand gets 0.5 str bonus to damage.
strenoth 02-23-07, 02:14 AM	You can't. You either wield the quarterstaff as a 2-handed weapon, or a double weapon. As a double weapon, your off-hand is treated as light when TWFing, so the penalties aren't as stiff(only -2 to hit). You wield it as a 2-handed weapon, you get a attack at 1.5 str bonus. That's it. You wield it as a double weapon and TWF with it, you get 2 attacks. Your main hand gets 1.0 str bonus, your off-hand gets 0.5 str bonus to damage. I think the OP is suggesting a Monk using TWF, with Unarmed Strike as the 'main' weapon, and a QS wielded 2-handed as the 'offhand' weapon... and it just doesn't look like it fits with in the rules at all to me, so I think my answer would be 'not possible'
Light_Colonel 02-23-07, 02:22 AM	You can't. You either wield the quarterstaff as a 2-handed weapon, or a double weapon. As a double weapon, your off-hand is treated as light when TWFing, so the penalties aren't as stiff(only -2 to hit). You wield it as a 2-handed weapon, you get a attack at 1.5 str bonus. That's it. You wield it as a double weapon and TWF with it, you get 2 attacks. Your main hand gets 1.0 str bonus, your off-hand gets 0.5 str bonus to damage. Simply put, the rules are contradictory in your example only because the rules are set up as "one or the other" since it doesn't explicitly spell out a situation where the offhand weapon is a two handed weapon. Ultimately, its up to the DM. Personally, I would say the Off Hand Weapon clause takes precedence where you're TWF. Plus considering the monk's flurry of blow abilities explicitly doesn't permit a monk to get 1.5 strength bonus when using a staff, your hypothetical feels like a cheap way to get around that restriction. Also, in most situations where there's extra attacks whether its due to multiple natural attacks or TWF, the "offhand" attack gets only 1/2 strength bonus while the primary gets full strength bonus. In reading the Flurry SRD, I see the answer: When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x 1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so. Which solves the problem as far as flurrying goes, but lets change the scenario slightly. Our friend the Monk now has a Spiked Chain. He takes his full primary attacks (but no flurry) with his feet. He then follows up with an "off hand" attack from the spiked chain. What then?
Tsuul 02-23-07, 02:31 AM	Our friend the Monk now has a Spiked Chain. He takes his full primary attacks (but no flurry) with his feet. He then follows up with an "off hand" attack from the spiked chain. What then?Can't [Edit: But ask your DM]. The offhand weapon can't be used like a two handed weapon. A quater staff is ok, cause you can make an off-hand attack with one end of it, but a two handed sword generaly can't be used in an off-hand. It sounds weird given the way you are currently looking at 2-handed weapons and double weapons as the same thing. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting
runestar 02-23-07, 02:35 AM	Regarding the SRD quote, note that it applies only to attacks made with your main hand. You want an extra attack from TWFing? You will have to suck up the penalties which come with it.:)
Light_Colonel 02-23-07, 02:40 AM	Can't. The offhand weapon can't be used like a two handed weapon. A quater staff is ok, cause you can make an off-hand attack with one end of it, but a two handed sword generaly can't be used in an off-hand. It sounds weird given the way you are currently looking at 2-handed weapons and double weapons as the same thing. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting If the link you provided was meant to illustrate that it can't be done, it does not say that. As I said a few posts above no-one would actually bother doing it this way since you would be at -4 Primary and -4 "Off-hand". I am not interested in the practicalities of it, simple posing a "what-if?" The hole is in the notion that a Monk makes his unarmed strikes with any part of his bosy he wants to, which would leave both hands free to wield a two-handed weapon. The description of two-weapon fighting makes no mention of using a two-hand weapon for an off-hand attack, nor does it explicitly say you cannot either.
Tsuul 02-23-07, 02:54 AM	The phb doesn't say you can't make actions while dead either. Off hand is defined in the glossary.[edit: I'm not going to post that definition] Two-Weapon Fighting If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.You can't wield a spike chain in your off hand. There are rules for double weapons, and with those, you can use the off hand end for that part of TWF attack routine.
Tsuul 02-23-07, 03:05 AM	Additional srd info... Double Weapons Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round. Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon. Light A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. One-Handed A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or ½ his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls. Two-Handed Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Light_Colonel 02-23-07, 04:44 AM	The phb doesn't say you can't make actions while dead either. Off hand is defined in the glossary.[edit: I'm not going to post that definition] You can't wield a spike chain in your off hand. There are rules for double weapons, and with those, you can use the off hand end for that part of TWF attack routine. Here, I will post the definition of off-hand so we can see what we are talking about: off hand A character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character's Strength bonus may be added to damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand. Source: PHB http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_offhand&alpha= Unfortunately, your very line of reasoning would then suggest that a Monk can ONLY make an off-hand attack with his fist, which the entry for the description of the Monk would seem to supecede by saying that he can attack with any part of his body. Two-Weapon Fighting If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Two-Handed Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon. I am simply not seeing a rule that says a Two-Handed weapon cannot be used for an off hand attack. As a side note, what would happen to various multi-limbed creatures? Could not a Marilith Demon wield two greatswords and use MWF? (Which is identical to TWF except it applies to multiple limbs)
Tsuul 02-23-07, 12:05 PM	Unfortunately, your very line of reasoning would then suggest that a Monk can ONLY make an off-hand attack with his fist,...Correct. ...which the entry for the description of the Monk would seem to supecede by saying that he can attack with any part of his body.TWF rules supercede; monks only deal 1/2 str damage on unarmed strikes coming from the off hand attack routine, even though the monk description says otherwise. The monk description even suggests that monks never, under any circumstances, have off hand attacks[edit:with unarmed strikes]; which is false. I am simply not seeing a rule that says a Two-Handed weapon cannot be used for an off hand attack.Nor will you. The weapon rules tend to go through what you can do. I will highlight in red the important info from the srd info in the post I made above.
nameneeded 02-23-07, 12:22 PM	I am simply not seeing a rule that says a Two-Handed weapon cannot be used for an off hand attack. You just answered your question. TWF states that you can make an extra attack while wielding a second weapon in your off hand. Two handed weapons require TWO HANDS. (Unless you have monkey grip in some cases) So if your off hand weapon is a two handed weapon that means your primary hand has to also be holding it which means it is now your primary hands weapon thus no TWF. Now some weapons, like staffs, are Double Weapons. These are Two Handed weapons that can be treated as if weilding a second weapon in your off hand for TWF. Grab a pool cue in both hands. As a Double Weapon you can hit with the handle and without changing grip hit with the point. A double weapon. A 2handed sword can't do that. So picture your Monk landing a kick then following it up with a couple of whacks with the staff. On a side note I seem to recall at one point TWF and Flurry did not stack.
Light_Colonel 02-23-07, 02:46 PM	Correct. So then a Monk who has both arms tied behind his back and/or chopped off will never again use his TWF feat? TWF rules supercede; monks only deal 1/2 str damage on unarmed strikes coming from the off hand attack routine, even though the monk description says otherwise. The monk description even suggests that monks never, under any circumstances, have off hand attacks[edit:with unarmed strikes]; which is false. I'd like to see where that rule is quoted. Nor will you. The weapon rules tend to go through what you can do. I will highlight in red the important info from the srd info in the post I made above. Right except as I pointed out above, your interpretation of the rules would then say that a Marilith Demon is unable to wield 3 Greatswords, since she cannot take an off-hand attack with two weapons. You just answered your question. TWF states that you can make an extra attack while wielding a second weapon in your off hand. Two handed weapons require TWO HANDS. (Unless you have monkey grip in some cases) So if your off hand weapon is a two handed weapon that means your primary hand has to also be holding it which means it is now your primary hands weapon thus no TWF. Except that the Monks description says he can use his feet for his primary weapons. How can his foot be the primary hand and both hands not be secondary? Now some weapons, like staffs, are Double Weapons. These are Two Handed weapons that can be treated as if weilding a second weapon in your off hand for TWF. Grab a pool cue in both hands. As a Double Weapon you can hit with the handle and without changing grip hit with the point. A double weapon. A 2handed sword can't do that. So picture your Monk landing a kick then following it up with a couple of whacks with the staff. On a side note I seem to recall at one point TWF and Flurry did not stack. Right and all that was covered earlier in the thread. Right now I am trying to extablish what happens when a Monk takes the massive penalties involved to use his feet/etc. as the Primary hand and then takes an off hand attack with a two hand weapon. Since the damage would seem to be questionable.
Tsuul 02-23-07, 05:04 PM	So then a Monk who has both arms tied behind his back and/or chopped off will never again use his TWF feat?Correct. Same as a non monk humanoid except that a monk humanoid could still make unarmed strikes. Advantage, monk. I'd like to see where that rule is quoted.Offhand definition. TWF rules restate the penalties for fighting with your off hand. Primary source for combat rules is the combat section of the PHB. Right except as I pointed out above, your interpretation of the rules would then say that a Marilith Demon is unable to wield 3 Greatswords, since she cannot take an off-hand attack with two weapons.The RAW never considers dual wielding two handed weapons. If that is hard to see, consider that monks are not proficient with their own unarmed strikes. RAW, they should take a penalty to all attack roll made with unarmed strikes. Feel free to change the rules to make them work. I have never heard of a gaming group force a monk to take the non proficient penalty for unarmed strikes, and I probably never will. Except that the Monks description says he can use his feet for his primary weapons. How can his foot be the primary hand and both hands not be secondary?That's getting into monster natural weapon rules territory. Right now I am trying to extablish what happens when a Monk takes the massive penalties involved to use his feet/etc. as the Primary hand and then takes an off hand attack with a two hand weapon. Since the damage would seem to be questionable.The next step in that logic would be to let a two armed monk make primary attacks with his feet, then 2 off hand attacks; because both hands are free.
Light_Colonel 02-23-07, 07:17 PM	Offhand definition. TWF rules restate the penalties for fighting with your off hand. Primary source for combat rules is the combat section of the PHB. We seem to be going around and around on this. The primary source says one thing, but the Monks entry would indicate that it is an exception to it. The RAW never considers dual wielding two handed weapons. If that is hard to see, consider that monks are not proficient with their own unarmed strikes. RAW, they should take a penalty to all attack roll made with unarmed strikes. Feel free to change the rules to make them work. I have never heard of a gaming group force a monk to take the non proficient penalty for unarmed strikes, and I probably never will. I have on more than one occasion used (as a DM) and seen (by other DMs) monsters wielding multiple two handed weapons. That's getting into monster natural weapon rules territory. Well that is part of the reason for this discussion. Again there would be virtually no reason this would even come up, however it seems from my point of view that it is "possible" (if unlikely) so I would want to know what happens. The next step in that logic would be to let a two armed monk make primary attacks with his feet, then 2 off hand attacks; because both hands are free. As was established at the beginning of the thread by runestar, you have a "pool" of attacks and thus cannot take multiple off hand attacks (with the exception of ITWF and GTWF which I am not even getting into at this point) so that logic train stops.
Tsuul 02-23-07, 08:41 PM	The primary source says one thing, but the Monks entry would indicate that it is an exception to it. If the monks entry is an exception [for all cases], then monks can't TWF when using unarmed strikes in a flurry. But if you consider that the monk words are only for the primary iterative attack[the general most common case], then you can tack on TWF, and the off hand rules that come with it. For MWF I would allow (although I think I would be wrong to do so) each off hand pair to wield a two handed weapon, with a + 1/2 Str or +1 Str bonus to damage.
SALDAR 02-24-07, 11:10 AM	The RAW never considers dual wielding two handed weapons. If that is hard to see, consider that monks are not proficient with their own unarmed strikes. RAW, they should take a penalty to all attack roll made with unarmed strikes. Feel free to change the rules to make them work. I have never heard of a gaming group force a monk to take the non proficient penalty for unarmed strikes, and I probably never will. Monks are not proficient with the unarmed strike weapon listed in the weapons section. They don't need to be. They have a class feature called Unarmed Strike that they use. So when a monk uses his unarmed strike he is using a class feature, not a weapon. And as far as I know no character takes a non proficiency penalty for using a class feature. Basically you are making your iterative attacks with unarmed strikes (the class feature) and want to take an extra attack with a weapon you are holding in two hands. The monk's ability to attack with any part of the body does throw a kink in it but the fix is simple. Apply the rules as written. The monk is fighting with two weapons, unarmed strike and quarterstaff. Therefore he follows the fighting with two weapons rules. Unarmed strikes are primary and quarterstaff is off hand. Without feats, primary attacks are at -6 and off hand attack are at -10. Damage is Str x1 for unarmed strike and Str x(0.75) for the quarterstaff. The quartestaff is being used two handed (x1.5) AND as an offhand weapon (x0.5), so you apply both. Although the designers did not cover this specific situation in the rules (no rules set can cover every possibility) this situation can occur within the rules when it comes to the monk. Therefore, you simply apply the existing rules. You do extra damage because you are using a weapon two handed and this damage is reduced because you are using the weapon off handed.
Tsuul 02-24-07, 12:54 PM	So when a monk uses his unarmed strike he is using a class feature, not a weapon.Nice catch. Although the designers did not cover this specific situation in the rules (no rules set can cover every possibility) this situation can occur within the rules when it comes to the monk. Therefore, you simply apply the existing rules.Which sounds great and all, but putting it into practice is impossible without adding/creating rules. What is the penalty for fighting with a two handed weapon in your off hands?
nameneeded 02-24-07, 01:55 PM	I think there is some misunderstanding about using feet as your primary attack method. With a Monk his body is his primary attack method. You don't label a foot or hand or elbow as your primary attack. Its more of a visual thing. Your flurry could be punch punch kick or headbut knee kick or headbut elbow punch.
SALDAR 02-24-07, 02:41 PM	Nice catch. Which sounds great and all, but putting it into practice is impossible without adding/creating rules. What is the penalty for fighting with a two handed weapon in your off hands? You don't need to add or create new rules, you just apply the existing rules. Is it an off hand attack? Yes. Are there rules for an off hand attack? Yes. So you apply the off hand penalties to attack and damage. Is it an attack with a twohanded weapon? Yes. Are there rules for attacking with a weapon twohanded? Yes. So you apply the extra damage for a twohanded weapon.
Tsuul 02-24-07, 02:54 PM	Is it an off hand attack? No. Does it involve the off hand? Yes. It's nitpicky, but there all the same.
SALDAR 02-24-07, 03:31 PM	Two weapon fighting requires the wielding of a weapon in the off hand to get an extra attack. Are you wielding it in your off hand? Yes. Normally a two handed weapon is wielded in your off hand along with your primary hand, but in this case you are using other body parts for unarmed strikes as your primary weapon since your hands are full and they cannot be used to make unarmed strikes. This places the staff in you off hand, or hands in this case.
Tsuul 02-24-07, 04:46 PM	It becomes DM necessary to create rules though. A two handed weapon adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage. A one handed weapon adds 1x Str bonus to damage. A one handed weapon wielded in two hands adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage. A one handed weapon wielded in an off hand adds .5x Str bonus to damage. New rule: A two handed weapon wielded in an off hand adds .5x or .75x or 1x or 1.5x Str bonus to damage. -- .5x if you view that the off hand penalties overide all other benefits, .75x if you view a mixing of off hand and normal use, 1x if you view two off hands adding. 1.5x if you view 2-h weapon rules overriding off hand penalties. (Pretty sure sane DMs will rule out 1.5x) The TWF rules went through every combination of weapons except 2 handed weapons. My guess is because of how the designers view the off hand. off hand A character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character's Strength bonus may be added to damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand.Once you add your "good" hand, it's no longer an off hand attack. In the same way that weilding a two handed sword normaly isn't an off hand attack.
SALDAR 02-24-07, 05:08 PM	Once you add your "good" hand, it's no longer an off hand attack. In the same way that weilding a two handed sword normaly isn't an off hand attack. For the purposes of two weapon fighting you make your iterative attacks with your primary hand and the extra attack with your off hand. In this instance, you are making your iterative attacks with an unarmed strike and the extra attack with your quarterstaff. You are making an off hand attack with a two handed weapon. It does sound weird but you do not have to complicate it. If you reverse it you would make iterative attacks with the staff and the extra attack with an unarmed strike. In this instance you are not using your off hand to make the off hand attack either, you are using another part of your body but you still apply the off hand penalties. Armor spikes may be a good comparison, you can use them as a primary or off hand attack. If you use them for an off hand attack you are not attacking with your "off hand" but you still apply the off hand penalties. If you are using a greatsword and armor spikes and you make your primary attacks with the spikes is the greatsword also a primary attack? No. It becomes an off hand attack and suffers the off hand penalties just as using the spikes is an off hand attack that does not use your off hand at all.
Tsuul 02-24-07, 06:08 PM	The thing about armor spikes is that there are rules for using them as either primary or secondary weapons (under their description). Same with shields, although shields are only usable as off hand weapons. I'll change my original post to "Can't, but ask your DM". Because it is sensible. And I'd use the .5x Str bonus to damage.
Tectorman 02-25-07, 12:40 AM	Has anyone here said that you can't flurry and TWF in the same round, yet? If that's so, then I'm the first. A monk must take the full attack action to use flurry (end of first paragraph in description of flurry of blows, PH 40). Fighting with two weapons as per normal TWF rules also is a full attack action. Therefore, as I've understood it, in order to do both, you'd basically have to use two full rounds to use a flurry and TWF. Thus, I would consider then mutually exclusive (meaning that a Monk not having an off-hand attack would take precedent over the normal TWF rules).
nameneeded 02-25-07, 12:55 AM	On a side note I seem to recall at one point TWF and Flurry did not stack. Thanks though.....I no think anyone else noticed either. :)
Tsuul 02-25-07, 03:56 AM	See the FAQ. It clears up that monks can indeed flurry and TWF. Any weapon used in the flurry, is inaccessible for the off hand attack though. Tack on all penalties and benefits; flurry penalties to hit, TWF penalties to hit, and add extra attacks.
SALDAR 02-25-07, 10:04 AM	Has anyone here said that you can't flurry and TWF in the same round, yet? If that's so, then I'm the first. A monk must take the full attack action to use flurry (end of first paragraph in description of flurry of blows, PH 40). Fighting with two weapons as per normal TWF rules also is a full attack action. Therefore, as I've understood it, in order to do both, you'd basically have to use two full rounds to use a flurry and TWF. Thus, I would consider then mutually exclusive (meaning that a Monk not having an off-hand attack would take precedent over the normal TWF rules). Anytime you make more than one attack in a round you use the Full Attack Action to do so. Flurry of Blows is not in and of itself a full round action, it simply requires you to use a full attack action because you are making multiple attacks. As Tsuul pointed out, it is covered in the FAQ.
Kanosint 02-25-07, 10:45 AM	It may not be completely related, and slightly outdated (IIRC, still 3.0), but there ARE rules for Multiple-armed beasts using 2-handed weapons. Take a Girallon... 4 arms, one main, 3 off-hand... Add 2 Greatswords: one in a main and an off-hand, the other in two off-hands. This'd result in the first dealing 1.5x STR, the other in 1x STR. They simply stack: a primary is 1x STR, an off-hand 0.5x STR... So if he'd wield some huge-ass weapon in all 4 hands, he'd add 2.5x STR. So wielding a big sword while primary-attacking with your feet, the blade'd only deal 1x STR, just like your feet. As to WHY you'd do it, though, I dunno, because it seems rather bad with the penalties...
I_Poke_The_Darkness 03-24-07, 03:13 AM	How would it work to have a Thri-kreen monk? How would the 4 arms and bite work?
Necromas 03-24-07, 11:08 PM	How would it work to have a Thri-kreen monk? How would the 4 arms and bite work? The bite attack would have to be used as a secondary natural attack in conjunction with the weapon attacks, taking the -5 penalty (sans multiattack feats) and dealing .5x str damage. You would still get as many weapon attacks as normal. Weapon attacks would deal 1x str damage for the main hand, and .5x str damage for each off hand. Depending on how many hands you use for each weapon these bonuses stack, for example, you could wield a 3 handed greatsword in your main hand and two other hands for 2x str damage, and a shortsword in your offhand for .5x str damage. Standard two/multi-weapon fighting penalties apply to your attack rolls.