More feats? [Archive] - Wizards Community

More feats? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
spacefurry
03-30-07, 01:48 PM With each book released the number of feats increases, but at the same time, the number of feats PC's gain stays the same.
Am I alone in thinking this is just a little annoying, or maybe even a little unfair? :P
Sure, three are lots of feats that everyone would like to have and I'm not saying that DM's should just hand them up like door prizes or something. But unless your a fighter your kinda stuck at a measly 1 feat ever 3 levels and maybe a few from a class or PrC. You really have to know when you first create the PC what you want to spend all your feats on in order to get any real effective advantage. And god forbind something happens in game to throw off that plan, then you may have just wasted some of those precious few feats you've gotten. :weep:
Are there any other ways to gain feats? Could a wish or similiar spell grant a permanent feat?
wonlee76
03-30-07, 02:17 PM Within the rules, Wish granting a feat would be a DM's discretion type of thing.

Heroics from Spell Compendium can temporarily grant fighter feats to the spellcaster for a period of time so long as the pre-reqs of the feat are met.

You could try to advocate permanency on Heroics to make it forever until you get dispelled. Using permanency on any spell outside of the list under the Permanency spell description would be DM's discretion so good luck on trying to get a DM to let you permanency Heroics.

PHB II has the character rebuild rules so if you feel you really screwed up in feat selection, maybe you can convince your DM to swap out the feat as per the PHB II.
tarkin
03-30-07, 02:19 PM Replace the word feat with spells and think about sorcerors:

With each new book, the number of spells available to Sorcerors increases, while at the same time, the number of spells they may take remain the same.

No, there is no reasonable 'issue' with this happening.

But yes, there are quite a few people that like feats and really really really want more feats.

The smarter people like this play fighters and similar classes.

Those that would rather just radically change the rules of the game, making their characters far more powerfull than reasonable, go looking for DM's that don't care about balance and give everyone lots of free feats.

-----------
Fair ways to get feats:

1. Take a class/prestige class that grants them.

2. Take a spell like Heroics

3. Play with Flaws (can grant upto two additional feats).

4. Play a human.

-----------------

In addition, they now have retraining rules that let you trade out old feats for new feats.

It is also reasonable to allow a Wish spell to trade a feat for another feat

Or to use multiple wishes (not just one, unless it is a really sucky feat) to get a single new feat.
Razorgrin
03-30-07, 03:52 PM There's the third-party Hero's Handbook (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1888), featuring the Savant PrC. Savants gain a bonus feat every level, drawn from any feats for which the character qualifies. The cost is relatively low, with prerequisites including any lawful alignment, an Intelligence of 13+, and a couple of throw-away tier feats.
spacefurry
03-30-07, 04:59 PM Replace the word feat with spells and think about sorcerors:

With each new book, the number of spells available to Sorcerors increases, while at the same time, the number of spells they may take remain the same.

No, there is no reasonable 'issue' with this happening.

That does suck too, but that subject belongs in the other forum. And I believe there a rules for changing sorcerors' spells known, right?

But yes, there are quite a few people that like feats and really really really want more feats.

The smarter people like this play fighters and similar classes.

Those that would rather just radically change the rules of the game, making their characters far more powerfull than reasonable, go looking for DM's that don't care about balance and give everyone lots of free feats.

Fighter are good for combat feats, but the majority of other feats don't fall into that list of feats valid for the bonus fighter feats. And they defidently don't apply to feats aimed at other classes. (ie-metamagic, divine, wild, etc...)

Fair ways to get feats:

1. Take a class/prestige class that grants them.

2. Take a spell like Heroics

3. Play with Flaws (can grant upto two additional feats).

4. Play a human.

1. I mentioned that already.
2. Not a permanent effect.
3. Not all DM's use them. (Mine doesn't.)
4. Not everyone wants to play a human, also it doesn't help non-human PC's already started.

In addition, they now have retraining rules that let you trade out old feats for new feats.

As mentioned above, that's helpful, but really only if you really want to sacrifice a feat you already have.

It is also reasonable to allow a Wish spell to trade a feat for another feat

Or to use multiple wishes (not just one, unless it is a really sucky feat) to get a single new feat.

A single wish can completely alter the reality of the world permanently, except for feats? Why waste a wish spell when you can just retrain?
spacefurry
03-30-07, 05:00 PM There's the third-party Hero's Handbook (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1888), featuring the Savant PrC. Savants gain a bonus feat every level, drawn from any feats for which the character qualifies. The cost is relatively low, with prerequisites including any lawful alignment, an Intelligence of 13+, and a couple of throw-away tier feats.

My DM doesn't use 3rd party books. :weep:
Vharuck
03-30-07, 05:11 PM Convert the feat into a magic item. Pricing it gets complicated, but it would work.
Razorgrin
03-30-07, 05:16 PM My DM doesn't use 3rd party books. :weep:

Mine doesn't use that book because of that class. ;)

Short of rebuilding as a race that gains bonus feats that cover some of the bases you're trying to cover, I think you're out of luck. You could try to convince your DM to use the Iron Heroes rules, which grant regular feats every other level (like a fighter's bonus feats), but those rules are both 3rd-party and designed for games with no player-usable magic. (However, the book was written by Monte Cook, which should go a long way towards granting it legitimacy, since the man wrote the 3.0 PHB.)

I think all the bases have been covered, unfortunately. I guess your only other option is to try and find magical items that emulate the feats you want but can't take.
Banatine
03-30-07, 05:48 PM This may or may not be helpful, but i'll post anyway considering its relevance.

In a thread i saw a while ago, there was a quote from one of the book writers, and he said that the 1 feat per 3 levels idea was based on the assumption that you would have a limited number of feats to chose from. Once you have access to triple the amount of feats you had before, it is perfectly reasonable to allow 1 feat every 2 levels, or even 1 per level.

I know it's not an exact quote, but for what it's worth, it's there.
greatmoat
03-30-07, 07:09 PM the 1 feat per 3 levels idea was based on the assumption that you would have a limited number of feats to chose from

But the feat potential in the core rules is already very large, if not near infinity. This is because any spell can be improved with Spell Mastery, any weapon can be improved with Weapon Focus etc., and there are potentially unlimited numbers of them.
whug
03-30-07, 07:46 PM a possible way is for the dm to put feats in as treasure (u find a tome that contains the secret ways of the paralysing touch)
platers spend time learning the feat and then have to pay an xp cost to get the feat (500 xp/ prerq the feats has or 1000/ prereq if the pc lacks the nessasary prerq's)
or they go on a quest to find the master who can teach them the feat ,who of course needs something doing for him as payment (pc gets no xp for this challenge the feat is the reward in its own right - if they succed)
xrp3_robot
03-30-07, 09:02 PM a possible way is for the dm to put feats in as treasure (u find a tome that contains the secret ways of the paralysing touch)
platers spend time learning the feat and then have to pay an xp cost to get the feat (500 xp/ prerq the feats has or 1000/ prereq if the pc lacks the nessasary prerq's)
or they go on a quest to find the master who can teach them the feat ,who of course needs something doing for him as payment (pc gets no xp for this challenge the feat is the reward in its own right - if they succed)

I have this rpg book called BESM d20 and there is a way to get new feats. The character has to pay 200 times the level of the character in xp.
spacefurry
04-03-07, 01:45 PM So let's see. At 1 at first and 1 every 3 levels after; by 20th, that would be 7 feats, 8 if human.

Now say you went with 1 at 1st and 1 every 2 levels; that would give 11 feats by 20th level. That's only 4 extra feats IF you go all the way to 20th level.
That doesn't sound unreasonable does it? Hardly unbalancing the game I think. Maybe even grant 2 at 1st level?
Rhuxley
04-03-07, 02:56 PM So far your best bet at RAW allowing feats is on a magic item.
Squall255
04-03-07, 04:01 PM *those vhemently against houseruling just skip this post*

I'm currently in a game where my DM used a lot of "questionale/ broken" houserules. mainly gestalt. he also increased the feat progression to equal the fighter progression. I've now watched/ been in this game for almost two years, and it is the longest game that my friends and I have ever played (we started about three years ago). while the game is more powerfull, and more complex, i'd hardly call the game broken. here is why: the DM enforces the theory that whatever our one PC can do, be prepared to fight 3 baddies that can do the same thing. So while we have strong characters, we are up against strong enemies and are still encouraged to use tactics. (actually, the DM has a running list of dead PC's). So no, raising the feats:HD ratio won't kill the game as long as the DM remembers to do it for the monsters too.
Tim4488
04-03-07, 06:58 PM I know this is rather a weak answer, but I remember seeing a long time ago on an "odd rewards" thread something about getting feats for christmas. Ever since, my players all get a bonus feat for Christmas, and birthday feats too (with DM discretion applied a bit more stringently than usual, it's better to use these bonus feats for low-tier than the capstone of a feat tree).

It's resulted in some fun as the players get to open up something new when they otherwise wouldn't be allowed, and while not a huge boost, it's one or two extra (the rule has only been in effect about 6 months).

On another note, Squall's could be fun (though I wonder what the Fighter gets to compensate?)
mythSSK
04-03-07, 07:09 PM Now say you went with 1 at 1st and 1 every 2 levels; that would give 11 feats by 20th level. That's only 4 extra feats IF you go all the way to 20th level.
That doesn't sound unreasonable does it? Hardly unbalancing the game I think.I do this in my games already for the reasons you've given. Too many feats, not enough chances for a character to take them. Works fine so long as you remember to give monsters and NPCs the extra feats too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spacefurry 03-30-07, 01:48 PM	With each book released the number of feats increases, but at the same time, the number of feats PC's gain stays the same. Am I alone in thinking this is just a little annoying, or maybe even a little unfair? :P Sure, three are lots of feats that everyone would like to have and I'm not saying that DM's should just hand them up like door prizes or something. But unless your a fighter your kinda stuck at a measly 1 feat ever 3 levels and maybe a few from a class or PrC. You really have to know when you first create the PC what you want to spend all your feats on in order to get any real effective advantage. And god forbind something happens in game to throw off that plan, then you may have just wasted some of those precious few feats you've gotten. :weep: Are there any other ways to gain feats? Could a wish or similiar spell grant a permanent feat?
wonlee76 03-30-07, 02:17 PM	Within the rules, Wish granting a feat would be a DM's discretion type of thing. Heroics from Spell Compendium can temporarily grant fighter feats to the spellcaster for a period of time so long as the pre-reqs of the feat are met. You could try to advocate permanency on Heroics to make it forever until you get dispelled. Using permanency on any spell outside of the list under the Permanency spell description would be DM's discretion so good luck on trying to get a DM to let you permanency Heroics. PHB II has the character rebuild rules so if you feel you really screwed up in feat selection, maybe you can convince your DM to swap out the feat as per the PHB II.
tarkin 03-30-07, 02:19 PM	Replace the word feat with spells and think about sorcerors: With each new book, the number of spells available to Sorcerors increases, while at the same time, the number of spells they may take remain the same. No, there is no reasonable 'issue' with this happening. But yes, there are quite a few people that like feats and really really really want more feats. The smarter people like this play fighters and similar classes. Those that would rather just radically change the rules of the game, making their characters far more powerfull than reasonable, go looking for DM's that don't care about balance and give everyone lots of free feats. ----------- Fair ways to get feats: 1. Take a class/prestige class that grants them. 2. Take a spell like Heroics 3. Play with Flaws (can grant upto two additional feats). 4. Play a human. ----------------- In addition, they now have retraining rules that let you trade out old feats for new feats. It is also reasonable to allow a Wish spell to trade a feat for another feat Or to use multiple wishes (not just one, unless it is a really sucky feat) to get a single new feat.
Razorgrin 03-30-07, 03:52 PM	There's the third-party Hero's Handbook (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1888), featuring the Savant PrC. Savants gain a bonus feat every level, drawn from any feats for which the character qualifies. The cost is relatively low, with prerequisites including any lawful alignment, an Intelligence of 13+, and a couple of throw-away tier feats.
spacefurry 03-30-07, 04:59 PM	Replace the word feat with spells and think about sorcerors: With each new book, the number of spells available to Sorcerors increases, while at the same time, the number of spells they may take remain the same. No, there is no reasonable 'issue' with this happening. That does suck too, but that subject belongs in the other forum. And I believe there a rules for changing sorcerors' spells known, right? But yes, there are quite a few people that like feats and really really really want more feats. The smarter people like this play fighters and similar classes. Those that would rather just radically change the rules of the game, making their characters far more powerfull than reasonable, go looking for DM's that don't care about balance and give everyone lots of free feats. Fighter are good for combat feats, but the majority of other feats don't fall into that list of feats valid for the bonus fighter feats. And they defidently don't apply to feats aimed at other classes. (ie-metamagic, divine, wild, etc...) Fair ways to get feats: 1. Take a class/prestige class that grants them. 2. Take a spell like Heroics 3. Play with Flaws (can grant upto two additional feats). 4. Play a human. 1. I mentioned that already. 2. Not a permanent effect. 3. Not all DM's use them. (Mine doesn't.) 4. Not everyone wants to play a human, also it doesn't help non-human PC's already started. In addition, they now have retraining rules that let you trade out old feats for new feats. As mentioned above, that's helpful, but really only if you really want to sacrifice a feat you already have. It is also reasonable to allow a Wish spell to trade a feat for another feat Or to use multiple wishes (not just one, unless it is a really sucky feat) to get a single new feat. A single wish can completely alter the reality of the world permanently, except for feats? Why waste a wish spell when you can just retrain?
spacefurry 03-30-07, 05:00 PM	There's the third-party Hero's Handbook (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1888), featuring the Savant PrC. Savants gain a bonus feat every level, drawn from any feats for which the character qualifies. The cost is relatively low, with prerequisites including any lawful alignment, an Intelligence of 13+, and a couple of throw-away tier feats. My DM doesn't use 3rd party books. :weep:
Vharuck 03-30-07, 05:11 PM	Convert the feat into a magic item. Pricing it gets complicated, but it would work.
Razorgrin 03-30-07, 05:16 PM	My DM doesn't use 3rd party books. :weep: Mine doesn't use that book because of that class. ;) Short of rebuilding as a race that gains bonus feats that cover some of the bases you're trying to cover, I think you're out of luck. You could try to convince your DM to use the Iron Heroes rules, which grant regular feats every other level (like a fighter's bonus feats), but those rules are both 3rd-party and designed for games with no player-usable magic. (However, the book was written by Monte Cook, which should go a long way towards granting it legitimacy, since the man wrote the 3.0 PHB.) I think all the bases have been covered, unfortunately. I guess your only other option is to try and find magical items that emulate the feats you want but can't take.
Banatine 03-30-07, 05:48 PM	This may or may not be helpful, but i'll post anyway considering its relevance. In a thread i saw a while ago, there was a quote from one of the book writers, and he said that the 1 feat per 3 levels idea was based on the assumption that you would have a limited number of feats to chose from. Once you have access to triple the amount of feats you had before, it is perfectly reasonable to allow 1 feat every 2 levels, or even 1 per level. I know it's not an exact quote, but for what it's worth, it's there.
greatmoat 03-30-07, 07:09 PM	the 1 feat per 3 levels idea was based on the assumption that you would have a limited number of feats to chose from But the feat potential in the core rules is already very large, if not near infinity. This is because any spell can be improved with Spell Mastery, any weapon can be improved with Weapon Focus etc., and there are potentially unlimited numbers of them.
whug 03-30-07, 07:46 PM	a possible way is for the dm to put feats in as treasure (u find a tome that contains the secret ways of the paralysing touch) platers spend time learning the feat and then have to pay an xp cost to get the feat (500 xp/ prerq the feats has or 1000/ prereq if the pc lacks the nessasary prerq's) or they go on a quest to find the master who can teach them the feat ,who of course needs something doing for him as payment (pc gets no xp for this challenge the feat is the reward in its own right - if they succed)
xrp3_robot 03-30-07, 09:02 PM	a possible way is for the dm to put feats in as treasure (u find a tome that contains the secret ways of the paralysing touch) platers spend time learning the feat and then have to pay an xp cost to get the feat (500 xp/ prerq the feats has or 1000/ prereq if the pc lacks the nessasary prerq's) or they go on a quest to find the master who can teach them the feat ,who of course needs something doing for him as payment (pc gets no xp for this challenge the feat is the reward in its own right - if they succed) I have this rpg book called BESM d20 and there is a way to get new feats. The character has to pay 200 times the level of the character in xp.
spacefurry 04-03-07, 01:45 PM	So let's see. At 1 at first and 1 every 3 levels after; by 20th, that would be 7 feats, 8 if human. Now say you went with 1 at 1st and 1 every 2 levels; that would give 11 feats by 20th level. That's only 4 extra feats IF you go all the way to 20th level. That doesn't sound unreasonable does it? Hardly unbalancing the game I think. Maybe even grant 2 at 1st level?
Rhuxley 04-03-07, 02:56 PM	So far your best bet at RAW allowing feats is on a magic item.
Squall255 04-03-07, 04:01 PM	those vhemently against houseruling just skip this post I'm currently in a game where my DM used a lot of "questionale/ broken" houserules. mainly gestalt. he also increased the feat progression to equal the fighter progression. I've now watched/ been in this game for almost two years, and it is the longest game that my friends and I have ever played (we started about three years ago). while the game is more powerfull, and more complex, i'd hardly call the game broken. here is why: the DM enforces the theory that whatever our one PC can do, be prepared to fight 3 baddies that can do the same thing. So while we have strong characters, we are up against strong enemies and are still encouraged to use tactics. (actually, the DM has a running list of dead PC's). So no, raising the feats:HD ratio won't kill the game as long as the DM remembers to do it for the monsters too.
Tim4488 04-03-07, 06:58 PM	I know this is rather a weak answer, but I remember seeing a long time ago on an "odd rewards" thread something about getting feats for christmas. Ever since, my players all get a bonus feat for Christmas, and birthday feats too (with DM discretion applied a bit more stringently than usual, it's better to use these bonus feats for low-tier than the capstone of a feat tree). It's resulted in some fun as the players get to open up something new when they otherwise wouldn't be allowed, and while not a huge boost, it's one or two extra (the rule has only been in effect about 6 months). On another note, Squall's could be fun (though I wonder what the Fighter gets to compensate?)
mythSSK 04-03-07, 07:09 PM	Now say you went with 1 at 1st and 1 every 2 levels; that would give 11 feats by 20th level. That's only 4 extra feats IF you go all the way to 20th level. That doesn't sound unreasonable does it? Hardly unbalancing the game I think.I do this in my games already for the reasons you've given. Too many feats, not enough chances for a character to take them. Works fine so long as you remember to give monsters and NPCs the extra feats too.