Mounted archery [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mounted archery [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LoreleiIsildae
05-25-07, 01:20 AM I was wondering if there was a feat or some such that allows a mounted archer to use something beyond the shortbow (composite or otherwise). I'm playing a half-drow ranger who uses a longbow and has a flying mount, but has to switch to the shortbow while mounted.
Any info on this is appreciated.

P.E.A.C.E.
Thurilien Lindoriad
05-25-07, 02:00 AM From the Player's Handbook:

Longbow, Composite
You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted...

So there you go: use a composite longbow. No feat required.
Someone
05-25-07, 02:09 AM Well, except maybe Martial Weapon Proficiency. :P
Thurilien Lindoriad
05-25-07, 02:12 AM Well, except maybe Martial Weapon Proficiency.

He's a ranger, so he is proficient with all martial weapons. Or was that a joke? :confused:
StruckingFuggle
05-25-07, 02:57 AM He's a ranger, so he is proficient with all martial weapons. Or was that a joke? :confused:

It was being pedantic. But only halfway.

Because you can use a composite longbow, even if you don't have proficiency. :P
Darth Sephiroth
05-25-07, 05:08 AM If you have the feats available, go with Mounted Archery and Improved Mounted Archery
Someone
05-25-07, 01:10 PM ...Or was that a joke? :confused:{Someone} was being pedantic.That about covers it. Hence the whole ":P" bit. :P
LoreleiIsildae
05-25-07, 01:27 PM Hmmm. Don't know why I missed that. Thanks everyone.

But why a composite longbow and not a regular one?
equilibrium17
05-25-07, 01:36 PM Hmmm. Don't know why I missed that. Thanks everyone.

But why a composite longbow and not a regular one?

I assume that this is an effort to represent that fact that, historically, simple curve, medevil england-type longbows were a good 6' long, and so very difficult to use from horseback, since the lower part of the would hit the horse's flank when you drew it back.

Composite longbows, as the name implies, are much more compact, and so more suited to mounted use.

The other historical option is the Daikyu, a Japanese bow that was designed so that the arrow was set off-center, lower on the bow. This also prevented the whole bumping into the horse thing.
Muktar
05-25-07, 03:24 PM Composite Longbows are NOT more compact necessarily. Composite Bows are exactly as it says. They are made from a composite number of materials. Composite Bows naturally have a stronger pull and because you can use different materials in the composite, you can greatly increase the pull.
Elendur
05-25-07, 04:18 PM The whole point of using composite materials is so that it can be more compact: you get the same draw weight in shorter bow. If you made it 6ft then it would have a much higher draw weight and be harder to use, sort of like mighty bow in D&D terms(although per the rules you could still use a mighty bow while mounted).
PhaedrusXY
05-25-07, 04:35 PM There is no such thing as a "Mighty" bow in 3.5. That got bundled into the Composite bows.
Muktar
05-25-07, 05:54 PM The whole point of using composite materials is so that it can be more compact: you get the same draw weight in shorter bow. If you made it 6ft then it would have a much higher draw weight and be harder to use, sort of like mighty bow in D&D terms(although per the rules you could still use a mighty bow while mounted).

The definition of a longbow is determined by it's unstrung length. Has nothing to do with composition. Composite bows are pieces of materials put together in a specific fashion such that it could have a stronger pull.

longbow = length of bow unstrung
composite = made from multiple pieces vs. single piece.
Darth Sephiroth
05-25-07, 10:43 PM If you want it, you could go with the Great Bow or composite great bow.
penchant
05-26-07, 12:36 AM The composite bow in the 3.5 system is actually a composite recurve bow. Its the recurve part that makes it usable from horseback.
LoreleiIsildae
05-26-07, 06:32 PM I like the Greatbow. My character uses the Composite Greatbow. However, neither are usable while mounted.
P.E.A.C.E.
Darth Sephiroth
05-26-07, 11:54 PM I don't remember anything specifically saying it can't be used while mounted.
LoreleiIsildae
05-28-07, 02:49 PM In The Complete Warrior under the Exotic Weapons description it says of both that they are too unwieldy for mounted combat.
Elendur
05-29-07, 10:58 AM The definition of a longbow is determined by it's unstrung length. Has nothing to do with composition. Composite bows are pieces of materials put together in a specific fashion such that it could have a stronger pull.

longbow = length of bow unstrung
composite = made from multiple pieces vs. single piece.So if composite long bows are the same length as regular longbows, why can you use them on horseback?
penchant
05-29-07, 01:13 PM The bows that the books refer to as composite are actually composite recurve bows. The pictures are of recurve bows made of multiple materials. The error in the books are that the composite bows should be shorter than their respective counterparts since the same length of material is contained in a curved form. A true longbow should be almost as tall as its wielder, while a recurve bow will be about 2/3 the height of a person. I've never seen a recurve "shortbow" myself, so I can't attest to that. There may not be one since the combat shortbow existed so it could be used from the back of a horse or chariot.
Elendur
05-29-07, 05:52 PM Yeah, the picture in the PHB makes the composite longbow look as long as the regular one, so I'm not really sure why one can be used on horseback and the other can't.
Muktar
05-30-07, 05:54 AM It's the recurve that allows it to be used from horseback. Recurve bows have more advantages than just allowing for a stronger pull.
Ruike
05-30-07, 07:49 AM Yeah, the picture in the PHB makes the composite longbow look as long as the regular one, so I'm not really sure why one can be used on horseback and the other can't.

The drawings are not to scale. Look at the pictures individually and they will make a bit more sense. Also if you read the descriptions it says "recurve" which as stated above is shorter than the long bow whil having the double curve allows it to maintain the same draw weight.

For a bit more modern game add in compound and really mess things up, the size of a short bow but the damage of a longbow or even great bow.
madbliza
05-30-07, 04:03 PM Look, I don't see the point in arguing about this. According to the rules, everything fits in a 10 foot by 10 foot room.

Still, he could just purchase a longbow (composite or otherwise) or a great bow (composite or otherwise) and it be made to accomidate firing from the back of a horse. Isn't that the definition of masterwork? Made of better quality.
Muktar
05-30-07, 10:30 PM When strung recurve bows are about the same length as a normal bow. It is only shorter because the recurve keeps its shape when unstrung unlike a normal bow. Bow lengths are measured when unstrung. You are comparing apples and oranges. The size is still approximately the same.
penchant
05-31-07, 12:26 AM When strung recurve bows are about the same length as a normal bow. It is only shorter because the recurve keeps its shape when unstrung unlike a normal bow. Bow lengths are measured when unstrung. You are comparing apples and oranges. The size is still approximately the same.

I have to disagree with you on this. I have had both a standard bow and a recurve. The standard bow was straight when unstrung and came up to my shoulder. The recurve was vaguely "C" shaped when unstrung and came up to just over my waist. When strung, the standard bow was then a regular curve and the recurve had the distictive recurve shape. The recurve was about the same size in either configuration while the standard bow lost several inches in overall length. The recurve was still by far more compact and more wieldy. It was wider than the standard bow when not drawn. I am (was) never a competition shooter but it was a good hobby of mine.
Muktar
05-31-07, 02:13 AM Then the recurve is not a longbow. The definition of a longbow is based on unstrung length. If it only came to your waist then it is not a longbow but a shortbow.
Elendur
05-31-07, 10:52 AM We're just discussing for fun. The rules question was answered long ago (get a composite longbow to use on your flying mount).

I feel sorry for the shortbow. The only advantage it has is negated by buying a 100gp composite longbow. So it's essentially a 1st level only weapon.
equilibrium17
05-31-07, 11:33 AM Then the recurve is not a longbow. The definition of a longbow is based on unstrung length. If it only came to your waist then it is not a longbow but a shortbow.

Strictly speaking, you are correct. If you want to be a PITA about it, "longbow" most correctly applies only to medevil English, simple curve, homogenous wood bows, usually of about 5-6 feet in length. Typical pull strength of such bows is believed to have been around 100 lbs., and maximum range somewhere between 400-500 yards. Keep in mind that this max. range figure is for military use, with ranks of longbowmen firing simultaneously into formations of enemy troops. Range at which a good archer could reliably hit a human-sized target would be much shorter, especially if said human target were moving or dodging.

Historically, especially in the Near East, bows of similar pull strength and range to the English longbow were constructed using composite construction and a recurve design. These bows weren't called longbows; they weren't even usually talked about in english, but rather Arabic and other ancient NE languages. I forget the exact Arabic term for a large, heavy composite recurve bow, but IIRC it does not translate as "longbow" at all.

Generally speaking, composite recurve bows have a shorter overall length for a given pull strength, due to the technological superiority of the construction techniques used. So for a given power and range, a composite bow is shorter, and therefore easier to use on horseback, while kneeling, etc. There is a practical limit to how strong a bow can be before an archer simply can't pull back the string anymore, so you don't see composite recurve bows the the length of longbows -- such a weapon would be unusable by all but the strongest of humans.

In any case, whatever the technical, semantic distinction, in common D&D usage, the term "longbow" has been used to refer to *all* strong-pull bows, both homgenous construction simple curve, and composite construction recurve, for as long as I can remember -- and I've been playing since 1st ed. I suppose it would make more sense to call these heavier pull bows "Strongbows" or something like that to avoid confusion about overall bow size, but now the useage pattern has been set, and we're stuck with it.

File with the rest of the D&D terminology oddities that have become part of the game over the years.
Zaz
06-01-07, 12:59 PM Accurate representation notwithstanding, in a nutshell it comes down to... No, you cannot use a longbow while mounted. However, you CAN use a Composite longbow while mounted. If you're still unsure, check page 119 of the PHB.
Thurilien Lindoriad
06-02-07, 02:28 PM Elendur stated:

I feel sorry for the shortbow. The only advantage it has is negated by buying a 100gp composite longbow. So it's essentially a 1st level only weapon.

And I agree. As a DM, however, I would allow a shortbow to be used in a kneeling position, which may provide certain cover advantages. Not much, I know, but it's something.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LoreleiIsildae 05-25-07, 01:20 AM	I was wondering if there was a feat or some such that allows a mounted archer to use something beyond the shortbow (composite or otherwise). I'm playing a half-drow ranger who uses a longbow and has a flying mount, but has to switch to the shortbow while mounted. Any info on this is appreciated. P.E.A.C.E.
Thurilien Lindoriad 05-25-07, 02:00 AM	From the Player's Handbook: Longbow, Composite You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted... So there you go: use a composite longbow. No feat required.
Someone 05-25-07, 02:09 AM	Well, except maybe Martial Weapon Proficiency. :P
Thurilien Lindoriad 05-25-07, 02:12 AM	Well, except maybe Martial Weapon Proficiency. He's a ranger, so he is proficient with all martial weapons. Or was that a joke? :confused:
StruckingFuggle 05-25-07, 02:57 AM	He's a ranger, so he is proficient with all martial weapons. Or was that a joke? :confused: It was being pedantic. But only halfway. Because you can use a composite longbow, even if you don't have proficiency. :P
Darth Sephiroth 05-25-07, 05:08 AM	If you have the feats available, go with Mounted Archery and Improved Mounted Archery
Someone 05-25-07, 01:10 PM	...Or was that a joke? :confused:{Someone} was being pedantic.That about covers it. Hence the whole ":P" bit. :P
LoreleiIsildae 05-25-07, 01:27 PM	Hmmm. Don't know why I missed that. Thanks everyone. But why a composite longbow and not a regular one?
equilibrium17 05-25-07, 01:36 PM	Hmmm. Don't know why I missed that. Thanks everyone. But why a composite longbow and not a regular one? I assume that this is an effort to represent that fact that, historically, simple curve, medevil england-type longbows were a good 6' long, and so very difficult to use from horseback, since the lower part of the would hit the horse's flank when you drew it back. Composite longbows, as the name implies, are much more compact, and so more suited to mounted use. The other historical option is the Daikyu, a Japanese bow that was designed so that the arrow was set off-center, lower on the bow. This also prevented the whole bumping into the horse thing.
Muktar 05-25-07, 03:24 PM	Composite Longbows are NOT more compact necessarily. Composite Bows are exactly as it says. They are made from a composite number of materials. Composite Bows naturally have a stronger pull and because you can use different materials in the composite, you can greatly increase the pull.
Elendur 05-25-07, 04:18 PM	The whole point of using composite materials is so that it can be more compact: you get the same draw weight in shorter bow. If you made it 6ft then it would have a much higher draw weight and be harder to use, sort of like mighty bow in D&D terms(although per the rules you could still use a mighty bow while mounted).
PhaedrusXY 05-25-07, 04:35 PM	There is no such thing as a "Mighty" bow in 3.5. That got bundled into the Composite bows.
Muktar 05-25-07, 05:54 PM	The whole point of using composite materials is so that it can be more compact: you get the same draw weight in shorter bow. If you made it 6ft then it would have a much higher draw weight and be harder to use, sort of like mighty bow in D&D terms(although per the rules you could still use a mighty bow while mounted). The definition of a longbow is determined by it's unstrung length. Has nothing to do with composition. Composite bows are pieces of materials put together in a specific fashion such that it could have a stronger pull. longbow = length of bow unstrung composite = made from multiple pieces vs. single piece.
Darth Sephiroth 05-25-07, 10:43 PM	If you want it, you could go with the Great Bow or composite great bow.
penchant 05-26-07, 12:36 AM	The composite bow in the 3.5 system is actually a composite recurve bow. Its the recurve part that makes it usable from horseback.
LoreleiIsildae 05-26-07, 06:32 PM	I like the Greatbow. My character uses the Composite Greatbow. However, neither are usable while mounted. P.E.A.C.E.
Darth Sephiroth 05-26-07, 11:54 PM	I don't remember anything specifically saying it can't be used while mounted.
LoreleiIsildae 05-28-07, 02:49 PM	In The Complete Warrior under the Exotic Weapons description it says of both that they are too unwieldy for mounted combat.
Elendur 05-29-07, 10:58 AM	The definition of a longbow is determined by it's unstrung length. Has nothing to do with composition. Composite bows are pieces of materials put together in a specific fashion such that it could have a stronger pull. longbow = length of bow unstrung composite = made from multiple pieces vs. single piece.So if composite long bows are the same length as regular longbows, why can you use them on horseback?
penchant 05-29-07, 01:13 PM	The bows that the books refer to as composite are actually composite recurve bows. The pictures are of recurve bows made of multiple materials. The error in the books are that the composite bows should be shorter than their respective counterparts since the same length of material is contained in a curved form. A true longbow should be almost as tall as its wielder, while a recurve bow will be about 2/3 the height of a person. I've never seen a recurve "shortbow" myself, so I can't attest to that. There may not be one since the combat shortbow existed so it could be used from the back of a horse or chariot.
Elendur 05-29-07, 05:52 PM	Yeah, the picture in the PHB makes the composite longbow look as long as the regular one, so I'm not really sure why one can be used on horseback and the other can't.
Muktar 05-30-07, 05:54 AM	It's the recurve that allows it to be used from horseback. Recurve bows have more advantages than just allowing for a stronger pull.
Ruike 05-30-07, 07:49 AM	Yeah, the picture in the PHB makes the composite longbow look as long as the regular one, so I'm not really sure why one can be used on horseback and the other can't. The drawings are not to scale. Look at the pictures individually and they will make a bit more sense. Also if you read the descriptions it says "recurve" which as stated above is shorter than the long bow whil having the double curve allows it to maintain the same draw weight. For a bit more modern game add in compound and really mess things up, the size of a short bow but the damage of a longbow or even great bow.
madbliza 05-30-07, 04:03 PM	Look, I don't see the point in arguing about this. According to the rules, everything fits in a 10 foot by 10 foot room. Still, he could just purchase a longbow (composite or otherwise) or a great bow (composite or otherwise) and it be made to accomidate firing from the back of a horse. Isn't that the definition of masterwork? Made of better quality.
Muktar 05-30-07, 10:30 PM	When strung recurve bows are about the same length as a normal bow. It is only shorter because the recurve keeps its shape when unstrung unlike a normal bow. Bow lengths are measured when unstrung. You are comparing apples and oranges. The size is still approximately the same.
penchant 05-31-07, 12:26 AM	When strung recurve bows are about the same length as a normal bow. It is only shorter because the recurve keeps its shape when unstrung unlike a normal bow. Bow lengths are measured when unstrung. You are comparing apples and oranges. The size is still approximately the same. I have to disagree with you on this. I have had both a standard bow and a recurve. The standard bow was straight when unstrung and came up to my shoulder. The recurve was vaguely "C" shaped when unstrung and came up to just over my waist. When strung, the standard bow was then a regular curve and the recurve had the distictive recurve shape. The recurve was about the same size in either configuration while the standard bow lost several inches in overall length. The recurve was still by far more compact and more wieldy. It was wider than the standard bow when not drawn. I am (was) never a competition shooter but it was a good hobby of mine.
Muktar 05-31-07, 02:13 AM	Then the recurve is not a longbow. The definition of a longbow is based on unstrung length. If it only came to your waist then it is not a longbow but a shortbow.
Elendur 05-31-07, 10:52 AM	We're just discussing for fun. The rules question was answered long ago (get a composite longbow to use on your flying mount). I feel sorry for the shortbow. The only advantage it has is negated by buying a 100gp composite longbow. So it's essentially a 1st level only weapon.
equilibrium17 05-31-07, 11:33 AM	Then the recurve is not a longbow. The definition of a longbow is based on unstrung length. If it only came to your waist then it is not a longbow but a shortbow. Strictly speaking, you are correct. If you want to be a PITA about it, "longbow" most correctly applies only to medevil English, simple curve, homogenous wood bows, usually of about 5-6 feet in length. Typical pull strength of such bows is believed to have been around 100 lbs., and maximum range somewhere between 400-500 yards. Keep in mind that this max. range figure is for military use, with ranks of longbowmen firing simultaneously into formations of enemy troops. Range at which a good archer could reliably hit a human-sized target would be much shorter, especially if said human target were moving or dodging. Historically, especially in the Near East, bows of similar pull strength and range to the English longbow were constructed using composite construction and a recurve design. These bows weren't called longbows; they weren't even usually talked about in english, but rather Arabic and other ancient NE languages. I forget the exact Arabic term for a large, heavy composite recurve bow, but IIRC it does not translate as "longbow" at all. Generally speaking, composite recurve bows have a shorter overall length for a given pull strength, due to the technological superiority of the construction techniques used. So for a given power and range, a composite bow is shorter, and therefore easier to use on horseback, while kneeling, etc. There is a practical limit to how strong a bow can be before an archer simply can't pull back the string anymore, so you don't see composite recurve bows the the length of longbows -- such a weapon would be unusable by all but the strongest of humans. In any case, whatever the technical, semantic distinction, in common D&D usage, the term "longbow" has been used to refer to all strong-pull bows, both homgenous construction simple curve, and composite construction recurve, for as long as I can remember -- and I've been playing since 1st ed. I suppose it would make more sense to call these heavier pull bows "Strongbows" or something like that to avoid confusion about overall bow size, but now the useage pattern has been set, and we're stuck with it. File with the rest of the D&D terminology oddities that have become part of the game over the years.
Zaz 06-01-07, 12:59 PM	Accurate representation notwithstanding, in a nutshell it comes down to... No, you cannot use a longbow while mounted. However, you CAN use a Composite longbow while mounted. If you're still unsure, check page 119 of the PHB.
Thurilien Lindoriad 06-02-07, 02:28 PM	Elendur stated: I feel sorry for the shortbow. The only advantage it has is negated by buying a 100gp composite longbow. So it's essentially a 1st level only weapon. And I agree. As a DM, however, I would allow a shortbow to be used in a kneeling position, which may provide certain cover advantages. Not much, I know, but it's something.