Mugging/Threatening/ etc.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mugging/Threatening/ etc.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheDarkWolf
06-04-07, 11:48 AM I had a thought. Wich became a question and not really sure how to go about it or exactly wich forum this shoudl go in... but.

In alot of places movies real life story etc. if someone holds a knife to your throat or a gun aka Pistol (flintlock or what not) yes it does decent damage. but unless they are low level. not enough for them to do anything special. IE you have a 15th level dread pirate((npc)) and a 15th level scarlet corsair. the Corsair holds a gun to the face of the other making threats.. or holds a knife to their neck making threats.

really, other than taking that initial damage where is the threat of death. because they are not helpless there is no coup de grace threat.

Kindof makes things like that.. well worthless.

any opinions? or things I may have overlooked?
jaelis
06-04-07, 01:16 PM Not quite sure what you're asking... are you bothered by the fact that you can't kill a high level character by cutting his throat? I think the answer there is that it's impossible to cut a high-level character's throat unless he's helpless. If you know what you're doing and sneak up on him, you could hurt him pretty bad (aka sneak attack), but he's too good to let you get a killing cut in... he'll manage to twist or dodge at the last second.

If you want to know how to include things like that in your game, I'd suggest the intimidate skill. If you've got a knife to someone's neck, even if they aren't helpless, you are clearly a danger to them. I'd give you a bonus on an Intimidate check to make them surrender.
tarkin
06-04-07, 01:18 PM First of all, in real life the knife to the throat is way over-done power wise.

If you are at all skilled in martial arts, you should be able to escape it unless the guy is totally paying attention only to you. That is, he can't even walk while doing it.

Second of all, yes, in d20, the knife to the throat implies you are helpless.

Specifically it is a case of:

1. Being grappled
2. Being pinned.
3. Having a weapon ready to attack someone.

If you want to make it more likely in d20, I would put it in as a special action only doable after pinning someone.

i.e. one graple check to graple.
another one to pin someon
and a third one to get a small knife to their throat, allowing you to attempt a coup de grace as a 4th grapple check.
TheDarkWolf
06-04-07, 09:01 PM well I was using generalities.. allow me to be more spacific with the situation.. as it hasnt come to pass. but for future reference.

I win initiative or have surprise even I(pirate char) take a five foot step quickdraw a loaded pistol and point it to the head of another.

ok sure intimidate. so they get some minuses if they fail. no matter what there is no real threat other than th initial damage of the gun going off wich is, what renaissance pistol - 1d10 YAY he takes ten damage.

there is little to no effect that says hey he has a gun to my head I should be afraid. otehr than taking 10 damage.

i mean I just avoid those situations. but there are some instances where I was a roleplayer would find a situation like that and say heycomon now.. but in mechanics.. that npc or player or what not has no reason to say... sure I will.. ((do whatever the situation is giving my purposes for hodling him up liek that))

I in fact foresee there may be some time that this kind of situation will probably arise and that woudl be the course of action my character would take. but doing so would not garner the same outcome as the reason he doing it based on character portrayl vs. game mechanics.

again I could be totally wrong. thus the reason I am bringing it up. :-P
CryoSilver
06-04-07, 09:04 PM Gun to the head is a +2 on Intimidate check. Simple, done.
TheDarkWolf
06-05-07, 09:15 AM heh stupid me I forgot about the first half of intimidate. for some reason all I remembered was the "shaken rules" for intimidate and was like. "yay a minus two, big deal" but I forgot about the whole other part of intimidate. now I feel like a moron.

Hey guys thanks much for the help. ::: smacks self on the head :::
Inigo Carmine
06-05-07, 11:27 AM well I was using generalities.. allow me to be more spacific with the situation.. as it hasnt come to pass. but for future reference.

I win initiative or have surprise even I(pirate char) take a five foot step quickdraw a loaded pistol and point it to the head of another.

The problem is that you're essentially trying to make a called shot, or at least threaten one. Let me turn this around for you:

You have a party of 20th level adventurers that have gotten to the pinnacle of your campaign arc and are about to face off against the main villain, an Acient Red Dragon. It's going to be an epic fight. You've spent months of preparation getting to this point, and hours the night before preparing. Then it finally happens and:

One of your PCs gets the highest initiative, takes a 5-ft step, quickdraws a pistol and points it at the dragon's head and says "I shoot the dragon through the brain and kill it".

Do you let this happen? You could even back the situation off a notch and just have him tell the dragon to surrender instead. Is the dragon going to backdown?

Answer: Probably not (to either).

The thing is, if the gun goes off, it's not going to blow their head off. HP determines this. It's not because They're so tough they can still fight with their head blown off or because They're so tough that bullets just bounce off their brain. It' because, plain and simple, the bullet doesn't hit them in the head. They are fast enough/lucky enough/their god will intervene enough so that they will be able to turn at the right second and not take a lethal shot. That is what HP represents. And through the hundreds upon hundreds of life-threatening battles they've been in prior to this event, they are aware of this. If they are physically unable to move, this is a different situation, but that's also a different mechanic: it's a CDG.

Is it unrealistic for the target of said threat to have such uncanny confidence? Maybe. But 1 guy pointing a gun at Rambo usually doesn't make him surrender. And when you're talking about 15th level characters, you're talking about someone that can take on 4 or 5 Rambos before breakfast. If you don't want that level of "heroism", don't play at 15th level.
CryoSilver
06-05-07, 05:46 PM The problem is that you're essentially trying to make a called shot, or at least threaten one.

I'd say it's more like readying a shot if the victim or his friends try to move or do anything sudden, which is perfectly permissible.
wizarddog
06-06-07, 04:18 AM there is little to no effect that says hey he has a gun to my head I should be afraid. otehr than taking 10 damage.

True. But you could always get lucky and score a critical hit taking twice as much. Maybe you could take 10 hp but what about 20? Will you take that chance?;)
Kouk
06-06-07, 04:55 AM Maybe the guy holding the pistol has Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, and Power Critical, and using a Flaming Burst, Shocking, Holy/Unholy, Bane(You), Quick Loading +3 Great Pistol -- loaded with Icy Burst, Anarchic/Axiomatic, Brilliant Energy +2 Bullets.

Do you really want to take that chance? Really?
Lotus Crane
06-06-07, 05:10 AM ok sure intimidate. so they get some minuses if they fail. no matter what there is no real threat other than th initial damage of the gun going off wich is, what renaissance pistol - 1d10 YAY he takes ten damage.

there is little to no effect that says hey he has a gun to my head I should be afraid. otehr than taking 10 damage.
Unless your hostage is tied up, pinned, magically held, or otherwise actually helpless and literally unable to move, 1d4 for a dagger to the throat or 1d10 for a gun to the head makes perfect sense. It's assumed that the moment you act upon your threat and try to kill them (or even a second or two before you act, if they're sufficiently high level and therefore superheroic compared to real-life people one might try to take hostage), they'll twist and dodge out of the way, getting merely nicked or grazed in the process.

However, if your hostage really is helpless, then your threat is more meaningful, because you can coup de grace them (PHB pages 153-154), automatically scoring a critical hit and forcing your victim to make a Fortitude save against instant death.

Also, note that D&D economics generally assumes that upwards of 90% of NPC's in the world are 1st level commoners and experts, for whom the prospect of 1d4+Str or 1d10 damage actually is a legitimate, life-threatening situation. Hostage-taking and idle threats really aren't supposed to work on superheroes and supervillains, which are what any moderate to high-level PC's and BBEG's represent.
TheDarkWolf
06-06-07, 03:21 PM Maybe the guy holding the pistol has Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, and Power Critical, and using a Flaming Burst, Shocking, Holy/Unholy, Bane(You), Quick Loading +3 Great Pistol -- loaded with Icy Burst, Anarchic/Axiomatic, Brilliant Energy +2 Bullets.

Do you really want to take that chance? Really?

hehe thats funny.

No the Intimidate really makes sense after re-reading it and realizing that an intimidate check can give you the outcome desired by thretening someone. so having something like that be a modifier to intimidate makes sense. wich since intimidate is a level check lower level guys are more suseptable to failing while higher level ones will just "call your bluff"

Anyhow, yeah intimidate is perfect and I was a moron for not remembering the first part of the whole using intimidate. wich now remembering I will be making full use of that skill often!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheDarkWolf 06-04-07, 11:48 AM	I had a thought. Wich became a question and not really sure how to go about it or exactly wich forum this shoudl go in... but. In alot of places movies real life story etc. if someone holds a knife to your throat or a gun aka Pistol (flintlock or what not) yes it does decent damage. but unless they are low level. not enough for them to do anything special. IE you have a 15th level dread pirate((npc)) and a 15th level scarlet corsair. the Corsair holds a gun to the face of the other making threats.. or holds a knife to their neck making threats. really, other than taking that initial damage where is the threat of death. because they are not helpless there is no coup de grace threat. Kindof makes things like that.. well worthless. any opinions? or things I may have overlooked?
jaelis 06-04-07, 01:16 PM	Not quite sure what you're asking... are you bothered by the fact that you can't kill a high level character by cutting his throat? I think the answer there is that it's impossible to cut a high-level character's throat unless he's helpless. If you know what you're doing and sneak up on him, you could hurt him pretty bad (aka sneak attack), but he's too good to let you get a killing cut in... he'll manage to twist or dodge at the last second. If you want to know how to include things like that in your game, I'd suggest the intimidate skill. If you've got a knife to someone's neck, even if they aren't helpless, you are clearly a danger to them. I'd give you a bonus on an Intimidate check to make them surrender.
tarkin 06-04-07, 01:18 PM	First of all, in real life the knife to the throat is way over-done power wise. If you are at all skilled in martial arts, you should be able to escape it unless the guy is totally paying attention only to you. That is, he can't even walk while doing it. Second of all, yes, in d20, the knife to the throat implies you are helpless. Specifically it is a case of: 1. Being grappled 2. Being pinned. 3. Having a weapon ready to attack someone. If you want to make it more likely in d20, I would put it in as a special action only doable after pinning someone. i.e. one graple check to graple. another one to pin someon and a third one to get a small knife to their throat, allowing you to attempt a coup de grace as a 4th grapple check.
TheDarkWolf 06-04-07, 09:01 PM	well I was using generalities.. allow me to be more spacific with the situation.. as it hasnt come to pass. but for future reference. I win initiative or have surprise even I(pirate char) take a five foot step quickdraw a loaded pistol and point it to the head of another. ok sure intimidate. so they get some minuses if they fail. no matter what there is no real threat other than th initial damage of the gun going off wich is, what renaissance pistol - 1d10 YAY he takes ten damage. there is little to no effect that says hey he has a gun to my head I should be afraid. otehr than taking 10 damage. i mean I just avoid those situations. but there are some instances where I was a roleplayer would find a situation like that and say heycomon now.. but in mechanics.. that npc or player or what not has no reason to say... sure I will.. ((do whatever the situation is giving my purposes for hodling him up liek that)) I in fact foresee there may be some time that this kind of situation will probably arise and that woudl be the course of action my character would take. but doing so would not garner the same outcome as the reason he doing it based on character portrayl vs. game mechanics. again I could be totally wrong. thus the reason I am bringing it up. :-P
CryoSilver 06-04-07, 09:04 PM	Gun to the head is a +2 on Intimidate check. Simple, done.
TheDarkWolf 06-05-07, 09:15 AM	heh stupid me I forgot about the first half of intimidate. for some reason all I remembered was the "shaken rules" for intimidate and was like. "yay a minus two, big deal" but I forgot about the whole other part of intimidate. now I feel like a moron. Hey guys thanks much for the help. ::: smacks self on the head :::
Inigo Carmine 06-05-07, 11:27 AM	well I was using generalities.. allow me to be more spacific with the situation.. as it hasnt come to pass. but for future reference. I win initiative or have surprise even I(pirate char) take a five foot step quickdraw a loaded pistol and point it to the head of another. The problem is that you're essentially trying to make a called shot, or at least threaten one. Let me turn this around for you: You have a party of 20th level adventurers that have gotten to the pinnacle of your campaign arc and are about to face off against the main villain, an Acient Red Dragon. It's going to be an epic fight. You've spent months of preparation getting to this point, and hours the night before preparing. Then it finally happens and: One of your PCs gets the highest initiative, takes a 5-ft step, quickdraws a pistol and points it at the dragon's head and says "I shoot the dragon through the brain and kill it". Do you let this happen? You could even back the situation off a notch and just have him tell the dragon to surrender instead. Is the dragon going to backdown? Answer: Probably not (to either). The thing is, if the gun goes off, it's not going to blow their head off. HP determines this. It's not because They're so tough they can still fight with their head blown off or because They're so tough that bullets just bounce off their brain. It' because, plain and simple, the bullet doesn't hit them in the head. They are fast enough/lucky enough/their god will intervene enough so that they will be able to turn at the right second and not take a lethal shot. That is what HP represents. And through the hundreds upon hundreds of life-threatening battles they've been in prior to this event, they are aware of this. If they are physically unable to move, this is a different situation, but that's also a different mechanic: it's a CDG. Is it unrealistic for the target of said threat to have such uncanny confidence? Maybe. But 1 guy pointing a gun at Rambo usually doesn't make him surrender. And when you're talking about 15th level characters, you're talking about someone that can take on 4 or 5 Rambos before breakfast. If you don't want that level of "heroism", don't play at 15th level.
CryoSilver 06-05-07, 05:46 PM	The problem is that you're essentially trying to make a called shot, or at least threaten one. I'd say it's more like readying a shot if the victim or his friends try to move or do anything sudden, which is perfectly permissible.
wizarddog 06-06-07, 04:18 AM	there is little to no effect that says hey he has a gun to my head I should be afraid. otehr than taking 10 damage. True. But you could always get lucky and score a critical hit taking twice as much. Maybe you could take 10 hp but what about 20? Will you take that chance?;)
Kouk 06-06-07, 04:55 AM	Maybe the guy holding the pistol has Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, and Power Critical, and using a Flaming Burst, Shocking, Holy/Unholy, Bane(You), Quick Loading +3 Great Pistol -- loaded with Icy Burst, Anarchic/Axiomatic, Brilliant Energy +2 Bullets. Do you really want to take that chance? Really?
Lotus Crane 06-06-07, 05:10 AM	ok sure intimidate. so they get some minuses if they fail. no matter what there is no real threat other than th initial damage of the gun going off wich is, what renaissance pistol - 1d10 YAY he takes ten damage. there is little to no effect that says hey he has a gun to my head I should be afraid. otehr than taking 10 damage. Unless your hostage is tied up, pinned, magically held, or otherwise actually helpless and literally unable to move, 1d4 for a dagger to the throat or 1d10 for a gun to the head makes perfect sense. It's assumed that the moment you act upon your threat and try to kill them (or even a second or two before you act, if they're sufficiently high level and therefore superheroic compared to real-life people one might try to take hostage), they'll twist and dodge out of the way, getting merely nicked or grazed in the process. However, if your hostage really is helpless, then your threat is more meaningful, because you can coup de grace them (PHB pages 153-154), automatically scoring a critical hit and forcing your victim to make a Fortitude save against instant death. Also, note that D&D economics generally assumes that upwards of 90% of NPC's in the world are 1st level commoners and experts, for whom the prospect of 1d4+Str or 1d10 damage actually is a legitimate, life-threatening situation. Hostage-taking and idle threats really aren't supposed to work on superheroes and supervillains, which are what any moderate to high-level PC's and BBEG's represent.
TheDarkWolf 06-06-07, 03:21 PM	Maybe the guy holding the pistol has Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, and Power Critical, and using a Flaming Burst, Shocking, Holy/Unholy, Bane(You), Quick Loading +3 Great Pistol -- loaded with Icy Burst, Anarchic/Axiomatic, Brilliant Energy +2 Bullets. Do you really want to take that chance? Really? hehe thats funny. No the Intimidate really makes sense after re-reading it and realizing that an intimidate check can give you the outcome desired by thretening someone. so having something like that be a modifier to intimidate makes sense. wich since intimidate is a level check lower level guys are more suseptable to failing while higher level ones will just "call your bluff" Anyhow, yeah intimidate is perfect and I was a moron for not remembering the first part of the whole using intimidate. wich now remembering I will be making full use of that skill often!