Multiple Attacks with Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Multiple Attacks with Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dungeonbeau
08-06-07, 10:44 PM I can't seem to find a definitive answer to this question, so here it is.

With the feats Quick Draw and Rapid Reload, can I make up to three attacks?

ie. Load a hand crossbow, fire, load again and fire, and with the quick draw feat, have a free action to pull a dagger and throw it? If you have two weapons in your hand, you are allowed a second attack, with the applicable penalties applying of course. With Quick Draw, you would always have a second weapon in your hand.

On a side note, this is of course a full attack action, and...with a +5 base attack. One other note, when the base attack goes to +6/+1, do you then get another attack if the above question is yes?
InkBlot
08-06-07, 11:12 PM At +5 BAB, you would only have two attacks. One on-hand and one off-hand. If you took Rapid Shot, then you could get an extra attack with your crossbow, for a total of three.

At +6 BAB, you would have three attacks. Two on-hand and one off-hand. Rapid Shot would bump it to four, with an extra attack with your crossbow. Improved Two Weapon Fighting could also bump it to four, with an extra off-hand attack. If you took both Rapid Shot and Improved Two Weapon Fighting, then you would have five attacks: Two on-hand, two off-hand, and an extra shot with your xbow.
Nom
08-07-07, 02:16 AM Many DMs won't (and shouldn't) allow you to make an off-hand attack if you've used your off-hand for a two-handed weapon. If you've used your off-hand to help reload the bow, it's not available for TWF.

As for the dagger, Quick Draw does not grant extra attacks, though it may allow you to use an extra attack you would otherwise be entitled to but unable to use. Same for Rapid Reload. Thus, a character with +5 BAB would normally get only a single attack, whether with crossbow or dagger. At +6/+1, he could normally make two attacks, but would need Rapid Reload to be able to reload the crossbow fast enough to make the second. He could also move the crossbow to his off hand after a single attack (assuming it wasn't used to independently attack) and use Quick Draw to pull out a dagger for his second attack.
Obsidianjaerc
08-07-07, 02:21 AM Many DMs won't (and shouldn't) allow you to make an off-hand attack if you've used your off-hand for a two-handed weapon. If you've used your off-hand to help reload the bow, it's not available for TWF.

That's a matter of RAI, however much sense it might or might not make. InkBlot is right RAW.
runestar
08-07-07, 02:22 AM Many DMs won't (and shouldn't) allow you to make an off-hand attack if you've used your off-hand for a two-handed weapon. If you've used your off-hand to help reload the bow, it's not available for TWF.

There is an exception for armour spikes and (arguably) unarmed strikes as well, since you are able to designate any part of your body as unarmed strikes.:)
Obsidianjaerc
08-07-07, 02:53 AM Haha! Tibia-spleen-spike to the face!
DM-Scott
08-07-07, 04:37 AM Let's not forget the ancient and honored technique known as "Gruumsh's Moon to Earth's Face" which involves and orcish thunder-fist fiercely planting his honey rolls on some poor sod's face. :P

Actually, in one of my games, the unarmed strikes made for some truly wonderful variations in fighting styles. Some fighting styles where realistic and impressive, striking with fists, knees, elbows, and feet, sort of like Mui Tai...

While some groups of martial artists had very strange martial arts styles. A set of drunken orc monks employed a style known as the "Thunder Fist" which actually employed very few "fist" techniques compared to the incredible number of head butts, elbow jabbing and swings, stomping techniques, and butt thrusts.

A group of gnomes practiced an art perfecting to fight larger enemies including giants known as the "Way of Broken Toes", which was dirty fighting to no end. They would use little gnome hammers (adapted to be monk weapons of the order) to hit the knees, toes, and sometimes groin of their larger opponents.

In an old game I ran, a player played a human monk who dual wielded a pair of tonfas and would alternate between unarmed and armed attacks, and did what we called a frenzy attack (multiple attacks / high miss chance) involving a flurry of blows, two weapon fighting, and secondary unarmed strike as a natural weapon (-4/-4/-9 at 1st level).

I'm not sure you can even legitimately do that in 3.5 (or 3.0) but unarmed strikes are kinda wierd like that, at least for monks (their unarmed strikes being natural and manufactured for most effects depending on which is beneficial), and monks are generally under-powered so I let him have his fun. I'd love to know if you actually CAN use an unarmed strike as a natural weapon to get a an extra attack at a -5 penalty. Anyone know for sure? I may have to go try to look that up later... :P
Nom
08-07-07, 09:06 AM That's a matter of RAI, however much sense it might or might not make.In the sense that the rules don't define when you must be wielding the weapon in the off hand, yes. Although the impelementation of mixing natural and manufactured weapons would lead one to believe that you can't use a hand to both TWF and 2HF.
InkBlot is right RAW.InkBlot is indeed correct, but he simply states some general rules. He doesn't address the effects of Quick Draw or Rapid Reload and which weapon is in which hand at all.
NobodyRemembersThis
08-07-07, 10:46 AM Before BAB +5, the most attacks you can get is 2 with a full attack action (TWF, Flurry, Rapid Shot). At BAB +6, you can get 3, as a full round action. (TWF, Flurry).

TWF cannot be used with Rapid shot. Both are seperate actions that require a full attack action to complete. Same goes with Flurry - it requires a full attack action so cannot be used with TWF.
InkBlot
08-07-07, 11:22 AM NRT, they aren't seperate actions. You can use both Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting on the same turn. They both trigger off of a full attack. Whenever you do a full attack, everything that requires a full attack gets triggered.

Maybe you're thinking of Many Shot. Many Shot is explicitly it's own action, and not a full attack.
tarkin
08-07-07, 11:23 AM 1. RAW = Rules as written.

2. RAW does NOT say anything about it. For RAW to allow something it would have to outright say "You may use both hands on a full attack and then also use one hand for another things." There is NO such quote anywhere at all in RAW.

3. That does not mean RAW allows it. What it means is RAW is silent on this issue.

4. That leaves an opening for the DM. Like many things that RAW does not describe (for example RAW NO WHERE says that dead people can not attack or cast spells), it requires interpreation

5. The most reasonable interpretation I have seen is as follows;

RAW does say: Any set of attacks made as part of a full round action takes the entire round.

RAW does say: You can switch grips as a free action form one handed to two handed.

RAW does say: If a hand is busy for an entire round, it can NOT do anything else DURING that round. It can do things AFTER that round, but not during.

Obivous RAI: You can not use a two handed weapon, make all your attacks, then change hands to a shield and also get the shield benefits DURING that round. You start to gain the shield benefit AFTER the round ends, not in the middle of it.

Not quite so obvious: As making all your attacks with the two handed weapon takes your ENTIRE round, while you can switch hands AFTER you have made all your attacks, that time occures at the END of your round so once you finish making allyour two handed attacks you have ZERO time left to make any off hand attacks

You may of course make an off hand attack with an Armor Spike.

But the attacks made with an Armor spike take place at the SAME time you are making your attacks with your two handed weapon

Not afterwards.
Dheran
08-07-07, 07:40 PM RAW does say: You can switch grips as a free action form one handed to two handed. Can you provide a quote for this, tarkin? It makes sense, but I've looked and haven't actually found it in the rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dungeonbeau 08-06-07, 10:44 PM	I can't seem to find a definitive answer to this question, so here it is. With the feats Quick Draw and Rapid Reload, can I make up to three attacks? ie. Load a hand crossbow, fire, load again and fire, and with the quick draw feat, have a free action to pull a dagger and throw it? If you have two weapons in your hand, you are allowed a second attack, with the applicable penalties applying of course. With Quick Draw, you would always have a second weapon in your hand. On a side note, this is of course a full attack action, and...with a +5 base attack. One other note, when the base attack goes to +6/+1, do you then get another attack if the above question is yes?
InkBlot 08-06-07, 11:12 PM	At +5 BAB, you would only have two attacks. One on-hand and one off-hand. If you took Rapid Shot, then you could get an extra attack with your crossbow, for a total of three. At +6 BAB, you would have three attacks. Two on-hand and one off-hand. Rapid Shot would bump it to four, with an extra attack with your crossbow. Improved Two Weapon Fighting could also bump it to four, with an extra off-hand attack. If you took both Rapid Shot and Improved Two Weapon Fighting, then you would have five attacks: Two on-hand, two off-hand, and an extra shot with your xbow.
Nom 08-07-07, 02:16 AM	Many DMs won't (and shouldn't) allow you to make an off-hand attack if you've used your off-hand for a two-handed weapon. If you've used your off-hand to help reload the bow, it's not available for TWF. As for the dagger, Quick Draw does not grant extra attacks, though it may allow you to use an extra attack you would otherwise be entitled to but unable to use. Same for Rapid Reload. Thus, a character with +5 BAB would normally get only a single attack, whether with crossbow or dagger. At +6/+1, he could normally make two attacks, but would need Rapid Reload to be able to reload the crossbow fast enough to make the second. He could also move the crossbow to his off hand after a single attack (assuming it wasn't used to independently attack) and use Quick Draw to pull out a dagger for his second attack.
Obsidianjaerc 08-07-07, 02:21 AM	Many DMs won't (and shouldn't) allow you to make an off-hand attack if you've used your off-hand for a two-handed weapon. If you've used your off-hand to help reload the bow, it's not available for TWF. That's a matter of RAI, however much sense it might or might not make. InkBlot is right RAW.
runestar 08-07-07, 02:22 AM	Many DMs won't (and shouldn't) allow you to make an off-hand attack if you've used your off-hand for a two-handed weapon. If you've used your off-hand to help reload the bow, it's not available for TWF. There is an exception for armour spikes and (arguably) unarmed strikes as well, since you are able to designate any part of your body as unarmed strikes.:)
Obsidianjaerc 08-07-07, 02:53 AM	Haha! Tibia-spleen-spike to the face!
DM-Scott 08-07-07, 04:37 AM	Let's not forget the ancient and honored technique known as "Gruumsh's Moon to Earth's Face" which involves and orcish thunder-fist fiercely planting his honey rolls on some poor sod's face. :P Actually, in one of my games, the unarmed strikes made for some truly wonderful variations in fighting styles. Some fighting styles where realistic and impressive, striking with fists, knees, elbows, and feet, sort of like Mui Tai... While some groups of martial artists had very strange martial arts styles. A set of drunken orc monks employed a style known as the "Thunder Fist" which actually employed very few "fist" techniques compared to the incredible number of head butts, elbow jabbing and swings, stomping techniques, and butt thrusts. A group of gnomes practiced an art perfecting to fight larger enemies including giants known as the "Way of Broken Toes", which was dirty fighting to no end. They would use little gnome hammers (adapted to be monk weapons of the order) to hit the knees, toes, and sometimes groin of their larger opponents. In an old game I ran, a player played a human monk who dual wielded a pair of tonfas and would alternate between unarmed and armed attacks, and did what we called a frenzy attack (multiple attacks / high miss chance) involving a flurry of blows, two weapon fighting, and secondary unarmed strike as a natural weapon (-4/-4/-9 at 1st level). I'm not sure you can even legitimately do that in 3.5 (or 3.0) but unarmed strikes are kinda wierd like that, at least for monks (their unarmed strikes being natural and manufactured for most effects depending on which is beneficial), and monks are generally under-powered so I let him have his fun. I'd love to know if you actually CAN use an unarmed strike as a natural weapon to get a an extra attack at a -5 penalty. Anyone know for sure? I may have to go try to look that up later... :P
Nom 08-07-07, 09:06 AM	That's a matter of RAI, however much sense it might or might not make.In the sense that the rules don't define when you must be wielding the weapon in the off hand, yes. Although the impelementation of mixing natural and manufactured weapons would lead one to believe that you can't use a hand to both TWF and 2HF. InkBlot is right RAW.InkBlot is indeed correct, but he simply states some general rules. He doesn't address the effects of Quick Draw or Rapid Reload and which weapon is in which hand at all.
NobodyRemembersThis 08-07-07, 10:46 AM	Before BAB +5, the most attacks you can get is 2 with a full attack action (TWF, Flurry, Rapid Shot). At BAB +6, you can get 3, as a full round action. (TWF, Flurry). TWF cannot be used with Rapid shot. Both are seperate actions that require a full attack action to complete. Same goes with Flurry - it requires a full attack action so cannot be used with TWF.
InkBlot 08-07-07, 11:22 AM	NRT, they aren't seperate actions. You can use both Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting on the same turn. They both trigger off of a full attack. Whenever you do a full attack, everything that requires a full attack gets triggered. Maybe you're thinking of Many Shot. Many Shot is explicitly it's own action, and not a full attack.
tarkin 08-07-07, 11:23 AM	1. RAW = Rules as written. 2. RAW does NOT say anything about it. For RAW to allow something it would have to outright say "You may use both hands on a full attack and then also use one hand for another things." There is NO such quote anywhere at all in RAW. 3. That does not mean RAW allows it. What it means is RAW is silent on this issue. 4. That leaves an opening for the DM. Like many things that RAW does not describe (for example RAW NO WHERE says that dead people can not attack or cast spells), it requires interpreation 5. The most reasonable interpretation I have seen is as follows; RAW does say: Any set of attacks made as part of a full round action takes the entire round. RAW does say: You can switch grips as a free action form one handed to two handed. RAW does say: If a hand is busy for an entire round, it can NOT do anything else DURING that round. It can do things AFTER that round, but not during. Obivous RAI: You can not use a two handed weapon, make all your attacks, then change hands to a shield and also get the shield benefits DURING that round. You start to gain the shield benefit AFTER the round ends, not in the middle of it. Not quite so obvious: As making all your attacks with the two handed weapon takes your ENTIRE round, while you can switch hands AFTER you have made all your attacks, that time occures at the END of your round so once you finish making allyour two handed attacks you have ZERO time left to make any off hand attacks You may of course make an off hand attack with an Armor Spike. But the attacks made with an Armor spike take place at the SAME time you are making your attacks with your two handed weapon Not afterwards.
Dheran 08-07-07, 07:40 PM	RAW does say: You can switch grips as a free action form one handed to two handed. Can you provide a quote for this, tarkin? It makes sense, but I've looked and haven't actually found it in the rules.