Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-12-07, 12:34 AM	As with many, I've been having trouble with the Crafting RAW, both as a DM and as a player, because the RAW basically break down when various common situations, especially when dealing with expensive items. One easy fix for the Crafting rules is to add the "and it's made of X which is worth Y" qualification to all crafting requirements, not just magic items where you can tack on extra cost for items made of special valuable materials such as adamantium or mithril. Just do that for all items. For example, let's say you're making a metal ring and ignore the question of the exact metal to begin with. A plain band has a DC of 5, a ring with some simple design has a DC of 10, one with a complex design has a DC of 15, and one with an intricate design is DC 20. The jewelers guild has set prices for crafting all these styles on their board with an additional cost for the value of materials: 1 copper piece for a copper ring, 1 silver piece for a silver ring, 1 gold piece for a gold ring, 1 platinum piece for a platinum ring and so on into rarer magical metals. It is no more difficult to work with gold than with copper, just more costly if you fail a crafting check and ruin half the materials. (Yes, it is possible to lose metal in the smelting process.) Magical metals may require special equipment (dragonfire for forging adamantium, for example) but no special expertise. A plain adamantium band follows the same process as a tin one. If an item doesn't have a listed price, or for that matter a price that doesn't make sense, use the following formula: simple item (spoon) 1 cp + cost of materials; typical item (pot) 1 sp + cost of materials; high quality item (bell) 1 gp + cost of materials; complex item (lock) 10 GP (1 platinum) + cost of materials. Note: The Players Handbook lists iron as being 1 sp per lb. as a trade good, but a 10 lb. iron pot costs 5 sp. Either the king is subsidizing cookpots or else someone didn't check the math. Instead, just follow the formula such that a ten pound pot made of terra cotta (free) costs 1 sp, of iron (1 sp per pound) costs 1 gp & 1 sp, and of copper (5 sp per pound) is 5 gp & 1 sp. Masterwork is not a separate component but the result of a spectacular success on the die roll. If you succeed on your DC by 20 or more, you've created a masterwork item and can sell it for 20 times its listed value not counting the additional value of rare and costly materials. (cf. A regular musical instrument costs 5 GP whereas a masterwork musical instrument costs 100 GP.) This means that a starting character does have a chance of making a masterwork wooden spoon because it's a wooden spoon and the DC is only 5 regardless of whether you're carving it out of regular pine or some rare exotic magical wood -- meanwhile the guildmaster of the woodcarvers guild is going to be churning out masterwork wooden spoons with regularity just by taking 10 and is consequently going to be the one playing around with the rare magical woods, leaving the apprentices to play with pine until they get good enough. Musical instruments are DC 20, and thus DC 40 to make a masterwork musical instrument. Crafters get a +2 synergy bonus to make a given musical instrument if they have 5 ranks in the related Perform category. Crafting any variety of artisans tools or other tools also benefits from 5 ranks in the related craft or profession. The speed it takes to craft an item is whatever it would take in the real world. Physics doesn't take a holiday unless you use a Fabricate spell. However, regular crafting time takes into account the time taken to correct minor mistakes, guage, adjust and so forth. A crafter can rush a job but the DC is raised by 10. However, the crafting is done in half the time. As every artisan says, "Do you want it done fast or do you want it done right?" Both requires a DC 50 for a complex item such as a musical instrument. Most crafting assumes 8 hour work days with a single artisan and at most one assistant. A guild hall with multiple artisans or a mage with the Unseen Crafter spell can craft 24/7, cutting crafting time to one third. Yes, an Unseen Crafter can assist an Unseen Crafter. Magic items can be enspelled concurrent with actual crafting. If you're going to forge a sword or weave a cloak, you can put the spells in as you're making it. So long as you have sufficient skill in the appropriate craft skills, there's no trouble. If you have a Dedicated Wright homonculous, the Dedicated Wright has the same skills as an Unseen Crafter for crafting nonmagical items as well. Finally, yes, you can do an assembly line with multiple crafters if you've got an item which requires multiple crafts. For example, a 1000 GP telescope requires Craft Gemcutting to grind the lenses and Craft Metalsmithing to turn the barrels. Assume 500 GP value per task with the usual time formulae. 5 ranks in Knowledge Architecture & Engineering give a +2 synergy bonus for both tasks. Similarly, a ring with a gem can be split up between Craft Metalsmithing and Craft Gemcutting for the individual components, a cloak with fur trim can be split between Craft Weaving and Craft Leatherworking and so on.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-12-07, 07:53 AM	I dissagree wholeheartedly with the masterwork aspect. What I tend to do is have everything be in sp/day with the current rules. Also, take a look at the Modern SRD craft rules. I've been trying to modify them for D&D but it is taking a while.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-12-07, 06:19 PM	I dissagree wholeheartedly with the masterwork aspect. What I tend to do is have everything be in sp/day with the current rules. Also, take a look at the Modern SRD craft rules. I've been trying to modify them for D&D but it is taking a while. I looked at the Modern SRD craft rules. They're doing the same thing I've suggested on just setting sensible times up front for the tasks, rather than pulling a number out of an insane formula that says goldsmithing is ten times more time consuming than silversmithing, and silversmithing is ten times more time consuming than coppersmithing. And if you're trying to facet a diamond, you're going to be at it for YEARS. Making it sp/day rather than sp/week solves some things but causes others. That lets you make a lute in an afternoon, nevermind the fact that it takes time for glue to set and varnish to dry. The trouble with masterwork is that by the current rules, anyone can create masterwork anything, even a 1st level character. All it takes is a DC 20 check. Get your average craftsman. Have them take 10 on the check. Then see how easy it is to get the rest of the +10 stacked up: +2 for masterwork artisan tools, +4 for maxed skill ranks in a craft, +2 for Skill Focus, +2 for 14 intelligence = +10 and your average commoner who's made some effort to train for a trade and has good tools and a pinch of talent is turning out goods to the same standards as the guildmaster. And your average 18 int starting wizard who's spent 4 skill points can do equally good work with a nice set of tools. I'd rather have masterwork be masterful, personally. Give the 1st level character a chance of getting lucky, but leave the reliable work to the high level characters.
The_Unseen_Illusion 06-14-07, 05:34 PM	hell, i hate the cratfting rules. it takes FOREVER to make anything. and theres the possibilty of screwing up and starting over. i mean, i tried experimenting to make full plate once, and my check was i think around maxed of around 13, but it took me fricken 9 months to complete! and i think if i tried to make a STR 2 longbow with a check of around 12, it takes me a round a month. the crafting rules really needs to be changed
tarkin 06-14-07, 05:42 PM	1. The crafting rules are some of the MOST realistic, MOST accurate rules in Dungeons and Dragons 2. Yes they take a long time. It did (and still does) take that much time in real life. Real world Armor took a year or so. Real world masterwork Composite bows took a year or so. 3. You are playing adventurers, not crafters. This is not something you need to be good at. 4. There are existing ways to seriously reduce the time. Fabricate is the quickest, but doing the +10 to dificulty also works reasonably well. 5. You do have a good idea about letting people randomly create masterwork items. I can easily see accepting and implenting that rule. Probably along the lines of "If you beat the craft DC by 15, you got a masterwork item". 6. But ruling they go for 20 x normal price for masterwork is not reasonable. Real life shows that to be a fool's idea. If something costs 20x normal, that is a different item altogether. That is a hyunda is a normal car. A Mercedez is a masterwork car. A Ferrari is an entirely different item, - a luxury sports car. A lamborgini could be a masterwork luxury sports car. Special materials DO increase the cost, skill, gold and time to make items. You try making something out of Depleated Uranium (occupies pretty much the same spot in the real world as Adamantine does in d20) The concept that knowing how to play a musical instrument somehow makes you know how to make one is foolish. Yes, guildmasters used to do both, they took the time to LEARN how to do both. DC of 50 is basically epic. Putting that in is silly. Making magic items to assist in crafting is fine. They exist already. See bonuses to skill. Upto +30 works fantastic. Requireing wizards to craft the item they enchant is a dramaticlly different concept of magic. While it has some logic, it does not fit well with the existing game in many ways. Basically it treats magic as being science instead of magic. But such a person exists. It is not a standard class, instead it is a class from Ebberon. Look it up. Assembly line idea again works fine... for that class. It does not work well with the concept of normal magic items. Magic is not science. Don't confuse the two. Yes they work together, but most people that try to blend them come up with crap because they don't understand science. You can do assemlby line stuff because it is not custom made - all parts are identical, made to fit that particular job. It requires significant training to create those parts, but no brains or intelligence or skill to assemble them, and people trainined in one part are not trained in the others. Different people not trained by the same group can NOT just sit down together and make their stuff. It won't fit. Your assembly line stuff would require people being trained (i.e. spending skills points) to only work with each other. Effectively this would prevent PC's from participating except in one particular organization. Can you say "PC'S get Screwed by Your Idea?" ------- Conclusion: A. There is no need to change the crafting rules at all. B. Some people need to actually CRAFT something in real life before they talk about how bad the rules are
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-15-07, 01:40 AM	1. The crafting rules are some of the MOST realistic, MOST accurate rules in Dungeons and Dragons The above is a rather sad statement, in addition to a misleading one. How does one judge the realism and accuracy of a Beholder? 2. Yes they take a long time. It did (and still does) take that much time in real life. Real world Armor took a year or so. Real world masterwork Composite bows took a year or so. Agreed, but not all of that work was 24/7. Some was waiting for glue to dry and wood to cure. [QUOTE=tarkin;12728345]3. You are playing adventurers, not crafters. This is not something you need to be good at. Begging to differ, but I'm currently playing an Effigy Master. The class rather requires you to craft your effigies and then repair them as well. It's part of the Craft Construct feat. Theoretically you could hire someone to make the effigy for you, but that really doesn't fit the idea of the class. It's like having a necromancer so fussy they refuse to go graverobbing to get a corpse, having to hire some "little people" to do such things for them. I have no trouble with the general idea of a fussy mage who hires other folk to do things for them, but can you imagine any self-respecting dwarven wizard who wouldn't want the bragging rights of saying he forged his own bloody magic sword? Enchanting someone else's forgecraft is something those sissy elves would do. 4. There are existing ways to seriously reduce the time. Fabricate is the quickest, but doing the +10 to dificulty also works reasonably well. Fudging the difficulty to save time can also be done to violate the laws of physics. It's a better system to use the idea from d20 modern where various tasks have believable real-world times, and without magic, you can only rush things so much. 5. You do have a good idea about letting people randomly create masterwork items. I can easily see accepting and implenting that rule. Probably along the lines of "If you beat the craft DC by 15, you got a masterwork item". Well, glad that at least works for you. It makes masterwork a bit more wonderful. 6. But ruling they go for 20 x normal price for masterwork is not reasonable. Real life shows that to be a fool's idea. If something costs 20x normal, that is a different item altogether. A masterwork musical instrument by the rules costs 20 x the price of a non-masterwork musical instrument, 5 GP vs 100 GP. A pitcher of common wine costs 2 sp whereas a bottle of fine wine costs 10 gp. Real life shows that to be reflected in reality. I can easily hold a bottle of Two-Buck Chuck in one hand and a $40 bottle in the other. That is a hyunda is a normal car. A Mercedez is a masterwork car. A Ferrari is an entirely different item, - a luxury sports car. A lamborgini could be a masterwork luxury sports car. So you're agreeing with the idea of luxury goods as being a separate category from masterwork goods. This was my point exactly. Special materials DO increase the cost, skill, gold and time to make items. You try making something out of Depleated Uranium (occupies pretty much the same spot in the real world as Adamantine does in d20) Some special materials require special handling. Some are just luxury goods. A gold ring should be no more difficult to make than a silver or for that matter a lead one. The rules do not take this into account and in fact contradict it. Similarly, if your decadent emperor wants an omelet made of griffin eggs, the exorbitant cost of griffin eggs should not mean that it takes more time to make an omelet out of them, or for that matter, that it's a better omelet, just a pricier one. I could see particularly high quality ingredients giving a +2 circumstance bonus on Crafting checks, but that is not necessarily reflected in the cost. The concept that knowing how to play a musical instrument somehow makes you know how to make one is foolish. Yes, guildmasters used to do both, they took the time to LEARN how to do both. Did I say it gave you the ability to make one? No. I said it should give you a +2 synergy bonus on your Craft Luthier skill or whatever you're using to make the instrument. DC of 50 is basically epic. Putting that in is silly. Crafting a masterwork lute in an afternoon without magic is an epic task. Making magic items to assist in crafting is fine. They exist already. See bonuses to skill. Upto +30 works fantastic. If you've got an item which gives you +30, how difficult is it to assemble other bonuses to give you +20? Not very difficult at all. Masterwork Artisan's tools: +2. Fox's Cunning: +3. Magecraft +5. Bonus for 18 Int: +4. Least Dragonmark of Making: +2. Third Eye-Improvisation: +5. Unseen Crafter assisting you +2 = +23 in addition to your +30 item. That's without taking any ranks in the craft at all: Third Eye-Improvisation effectively gives you 5 ranks in the skill. Requireing wizards to craft the item they enchant is a dramaticlly different concept of magic. While it has some logic, it does not fit well with the existing game in many ways. Depends on the campaign. It should certainly be an option for characters who want it. And there are some classes that do require it. The Candle Caster from Tome and Blood has to make the candles. The Master Alchemist from Magic of Faerun has to make the potions. Admittedly these are 3.0 PrCs, but they're still legal, even if not that popular. And the Effigy Master is current as is the Maester and the Renegade Mastermaker. Basically it treats magic as being science instead of magic. This is not a new concept. Read Agrippa. But such a person exists. It is not a standard class, instead it is a class from Ebberon. Look it up. I have. Eberron is like Faerun--plenty of the creatures and magic items and PrCs there are suitable for bussing to Greyhawk and vice versa. And plenty of people run their own worlds which are not Greyhawk, Faerun, Eberron or any of the others. "Standard class" is free to be thrown out the window by any DM the same as "standard races" are. I look at Illumians and Goliaths and laugh, kicking them out the window of my game, even if they show up in the "standard" books in the "Races of" series. Meanwhile, I happily allow in the changeling race from Eberron, artificers likewise, and any of several prestige classes and items from Faerun and even Dragonlance. Assembly line idea again works fine... for that class. It does not work well with the concept of normal magic items. You obviously haven't read the section in the new standard Magic Items Compendium about "improving magic items." A wizard, a cleric, a druid, a sorcerer, a bard and an artificer can all pimp out the same item. Magic is not science. Don't confuse the two. Yes they work together, but most people that try to blend them come up with crap because they don't understand science. I'd say it's because they don't understand magic, and by magic I mean the real world history of occult philosophy, hermeticism, and the huge amount of tradition from The Golden Bough. But the point here is not that much about magic as coming up with a reasonable rule system to model the crafting of mundane items. You can do assemlby line stuff because it is not custom made - all parts are identical, made to fit that particular job. It requires significant training to create those parts, but no brains or intelligence or skill to assemble them, and people trainined in one part are not trained in the others. The workers of the medieval crafthalls would lynch you for saying that, and a number of modern skilled workers would too. Different people not trained by the same group can NOT just sit down together and make their stuff. It won't fit. That's why you generally have one master craftsman overseeing a team, and honestly, the above statement is nonsense. How on earth did people ever build boats let alone cathedrals? At some base level, carpentry is carpentry and masonry is masonry. The techniques may be slightly different from one shop to the other, but given a week, anyone who knows what they're doing should be able to get the hang of a new crew. Your assembly line stuff would require people being trained (i.e. spending skills points) to only work with each other. Effectively this would prevent PC's from participating except in one particular organization. Can you say "PC'S get Screwed by Your Idea?" Check the DMG II for the business about guild halls. The rules are already there. Conclusion: A. There is no need to change the crafting rules at all. If you don't use the crafting rules, then no. If you use the crafting rules and they don't reflect the flavor you want, then yes. They don't suit me. Ergo, I change them. And even you admitted you liked the idea of having masterwork items created randomly. So if you want to implement that idea, you will need to change them, even if slightly. B. Some people need to actually CRAFT something in real life before they talk about how bad the rules are I do craft things in real life. I use Craft Brewing to brew mead. My latest batches have taken 4 years. But I can brew good drinkable beer and ale in a few weeks, and ginger beer in a few days. Three different times for three different products all made with similar ingredients. The D&D fantasy rules do not reflect these times accurately. The D20 Modern rules, OTOH, simply set the times for different tasks.
Jersey Cowboy 06-15-07, 12:03 PM	[B][U][I][COLOR="Navy"]... 2. Yes they take a long time. It did (and still does) take that much time in real life. Real world Armor took a year or so. Real world masterwork Composite bows took a year or so. 3. You are playing adventurers, not crafters. This is not something you need to be good at. ... A. There is no need to change the crafting rules at all. B. Some people need to actually CRAFT something in real life before they talk about how bad the rules are I agree that the crafting rules are pretty good. I was starting to build my character to take the Trophy Collector feat. This was pretty exciting, until I wanted to make a necklace of chimera teeth. Stepping back and looking at what my character wanted to do, it seemed really simple: take the teeth off the carcass, clean them up a bit, drill small holes into each tooth for the cord OR simply tie each tooth to a cord, and wear it. Then I looked at the rules for the Trophy Collector feat, which makes trophies very expensive. Take that over to the rules for the Craft feat, and this simple tooth necklace would take several weeks to complete! I've since decided to steer my character in a new direction, more or less.