My Compromise on Hide/Move Silently and Stealth [Archive] - Wizards Community

My Compromise on Hide/Move Silently and Stealth [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jamesmay1983
09-28-07, 02:49 AM I made a judgement call in the game I run this evening. I took the idea of a stealth skill from Star Wars Saga Edition and adapted it for our game. Yet at the same time, I don't like the oversimplification of having just one skill. What I am doing is having the Stealth skill modifier be an average of the Hide and Move Silently skill modifers. Ex. Matt the Druid has a Hide of 2 and a Move Silently of 4. His Stealth check is (4+2)/2 = 3.

I like this method, because I can still have my group do hide checks or move silently checks. When they need to do both at once, which happens about 75% of the time, they just have to make one stealth roll.

Hope this can help make your game run smoother.

~~JM
concerro
09-28-07, 06:12 AM I made a judgement call in the game I run this evening. I took the idea of a stealth skill from Star Wars Saga Edition and adapted it for our game. Yet at the same time, I don't like the oversimplification of having just one skill. What I am doing is having the Stealth skill modifier be an average of the Hide and Move Silently skill modifers. Ex. Matt the Druid has a Hide of 2 and a Move Silently of 4. His Stealth check is (4+2)/2 = 3.

I like this method, because I can still have my group do hide checks or move silently checks. When they need to do both at once, which happens about 75% of the time, they just have to make one stealth roll.

Hope this can help make your game run smoother.

~~JM
What if the person is invisible and they only need to make move silent checks, or if they are silenced and they only need to make hide checks, then you are nerfing them.
Empirate
09-28-07, 07:33 AM There are a lot of effects out there that only improve one of the skills (mostly Hide), for very good reasons. Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind are a good example: The cloak makes you blend in, while the boots soften your footfalls. It's a very good idea to keep Hide and Move Silently apart, imho!
Granted, you can make it a single "Stealth" check, but what kind of check would you roll against that? An "Awareness" check or some such, (spot+listen)/2 maybe. But again, there are creatures with superior eyesight, but bad ears: You'll have to hide from them, but you can hide noisily and still go unnoticed. And vice versa.
Your "solution" may make the game a little less check-intensive, but as the Hide and Move Silently skills only come into play as opposed checks, you're not really doing anything for anybody. Except making the game a little bitt less immersive:

DM: "OK, there's a Giant Eagle circling above you, roll Stealth or it will see you! [rolls...] You need to beat a 19 to remain undetected."
PC: "Hmm, that's 2 ranks of Hide and 3 ranks of Move Silently, and I have Boots of Elvenkind, so that's (2+8)/2=5, plus Dex mod +3, makes my Stealth score 8. [rolls...] a 12! Plus 8, that's 20! w00t! Good thing I have those Boots so this nasty can't see me!"
Garden_State_Gamer
09-28-07, 08:38 AM I like this method, because I can still have my group do hide checks or move silently checks.

Way to read the entire post, guys.
goawayugh
09-28-07, 10:11 AM What if the person is invisible and they only need to make move silent checks, or if they are silenced and they only need to make hide checks, then you are nerfing them.

Invisible creatures still need to make hide checks, you just get insane bonuses (+20/+40). Read the hide skill again.
Tsuul
09-28-07, 02:10 PM goawayugh, you aren't talking about what you quoted.
:)
This does sound like a good idea Jamesmay1983.
goawayugh
09-28-07, 02:14 PM Yes I am. The quote is assuming that you don't need to make hide checks if you are invisible, but you do.
Tsuul
09-28-07, 04:24 PM goawayugh,
Silly semantics. I see the error now. Your arguing his mechanics and not his point.

While it is true that an invisible creature still has to make hide checks, the second half of the sentence still carries out concerro's point (however wrong it was).

Change "invisible" to "sneaking up on a blind guard" to fix the mechanics to properly illustrate his point.
Vharuck
09-28-07, 04:46 PM Way to read the entire post, guys.

Was read. The point was that, if the new Stealth modifier were determined by averaging Hide and Move Silently, then objects that previously only helped you hide (shadows, invisibility, cover) now also make you somehow quieter. That doesn't make sense.
tyrecian
09-28-07, 06:32 PM this isnt the worst idea for PCs who have similar checks, and if you DM it correctly it would cut down on many double rolls.

you just have to be conscious of what is going on (as a GM is anyways) so that you arent allowing a full plate PC with high hide to roll stealth, rather that would be a time at which you would roll seperately.

As a general roll, i think this could be ok. It is kinda strange though, only because even 1st Ed. ad&d seperated hide n' shadows and move silently.
Jamesmay1983
09-28-07, 08:06 PM Yes, you all do have a point about invisibility. I was not intending on my stealth modifier to be used every time a hide or move silently check was requried. DM judgement is certainly required. The reactions above illustrate just how important it is to not just use a stealth check for everything.

My stealth idea came from some PC's I overheard complaining about having to roll two checks each time they tried to sneak coupled with general comments about Star Wars Saga Edition and 4th Edition.

I'm not saying this should be in everyone's game, but I thought it would be cool to share a house rule I had thought up.

Peace
~~JM
runestar
09-28-07, 10:00 PM 1 question: what do you oppose this sneak check with?

Hide is opposed by spot, while move silently is opposed by listen. If you combined them into 1 check, what skill or check should the opponent use to oppose? :confused:
Tsuul
09-28-07, 10:12 PM The combined spot and listen of course!
Jamesmay1983
09-29-07, 10:45 AM The combined spot and listen of course!

Exactly.
runestar
09-29-07, 10:22 PM The combined spot and listen of course!

Combined....?

Don't you mean the average of the 2?:confused:

Something seems mathematically problematic with pitting the average of your hide+move silently checks against the average of his spot+listen checks, as opposed to checking them separately, but I just can't put my finger on it at the moment...

Can anyone with a background in statistics comment on the viability of this?:P
Tsuul
09-30-07, 01:34 AM Don't you mean the average of the 2?Well yea, that's the combination I meant but didn't say. I was using your usage of the word combine from the post previous, as in combined into 1 check. :D

Something seems mathematically problematic with pitting the average of your hide+move silently checks against the average of his spot+listen checks, as opposed to checking them separately, but I just can't put my finger on it at the moment...Lets say you have 5 ranks in hide and move silently, each. And your opponent has 5 ranks in spot and listen, each. It's pretty much a 1/4 chance that you won't get spotted or heard, 1/2 that you will either get spotted or heard, and a 1/4 chance you will be both spotted and heard.
Add Boots of Awesome Silence (+50 to move silently checks), and the odds change to 1/2 chance you won't get spotted, and 1/2 chance you will get spotted; since you can now never be heard by that opponent while wearing the boots.
The problem lies when you combine the rolls into an average, you will never be spotted or heard by that opponent.

One solution would be to adopt full merging of the skills and change all magic items to a generic bonus. Another would be to adopt full merging of the skills and take into account specific item bonuses (like to sound) and to count them or not count them against various encounters (deaf monsters).

I'm changing my stance.
runestar
09-30-07, 02:36 AM Lets say you have 5 ranks in hide and move silently, each. And your opponent has 5 ranks in spot and listen, each. It's pretty much a 1/4 chance that you won't get spotted or heard, 1/2 that you will either get spotted or heard, and a 1/4 chance you will be both spotted and heard.

Not quite. While the chance looks the same, you end up making less rolls, which translates to higher chance of success overall, since less tries means less failures possible (you only need to succeed once, as opposed to twice).

Say, half and half, that translates to 25% chance of success. With the new combined check, there is only 1 roll, or 50% chance.

Someone correct me if my math is faulty (and I profess to being only average in math), but doesn't this variant effectively double your chances of success?:confused:
Tsuul
09-30-07, 12:01 PM Say, half and half, that translates to 25% chance of success. With the new combined check, there is only 1 roll, or 50% chance.Ahhh, yup.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jamesmay1983 09-28-07, 02:49 AM	I made a judgement call in the game I run this evening. I took the idea of a stealth skill from Star Wars Saga Edition and adapted it for our game. Yet at the same time, I don't like the oversimplification of having just one skill. What I am doing is having the Stealth skill modifier be an average of the Hide and Move Silently skill modifers. Ex. Matt the Druid has a Hide of 2 and a Move Silently of 4. His Stealth check is (4+2)/2 = 3. I like this method, because I can still have my group do hide checks or move silently checks. When they need to do both at once, which happens about 75% of the time, they just have to make one stealth roll. Hope this can help make your game run smoother. ~~JM
concerro 09-28-07, 06:12 AM	I made a judgement call in the game I run this evening. I took the idea of a stealth skill from Star Wars Saga Edition and adapted it for our game. Yet at the same time, I don't like the oversimplification of having just one skill. What I am doing is having the Stealth skill modifier be an average of the Hide and Move Silently skill modifers. Ex. Matt the Druid has a Hide of 2 and a Move Silently of 4. His Stealth check is (4+2)/2 = 3. I like this method, because I can still have my group do hide checks or move silently checks. When they need to do both at once, which happens about 75% of the time, they just have to make one stealth roll. Hope this can help make your game run smoother. ~~JM What if the person is invisible and they only need to make move silent checks, or if they are silenced and they only need to make hide checks, then you are nerfing them.
Empirate 09-28-07, 07:33 AM	There are a lot of effects out there that only improve one of the skills (mostly Hide), for very good reasons. Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind are a good example: The cloak makes you blend in, while the boots soften your footfalls. It's a very good idea to keep Hide and Move Silently apart, imho! Granted, you can make it a single "Stealth" check, but what kind of check would you roll against that? An "Awareness" check or some such, (spot+listen)/2 maybe. But again, there are creatures with superior eyesight, but bad ears: You'll have to hide from them, but you can hide noisily and still go unnoticed. And vice versa. Your "solution" may make the game a little less check-intensive, but as the Hide and Move Silently skills only come into play as opposed checks, you're not really doing anything for anybody. Except making the game a little bitt less immersive: DM: "OK, there's a Giant Eagle circling above you, roll Stealth or it will see you! [rolls...] You need to beat a 19 to remain undetected." PC: "Hmm, that's 2 ranks of Hide and 3 ranks of Move Silently, and I have Boots of Elvenkind, so that's (2+8)/2=5, plus Dex mod +3, makes my Stealth score 8. [rolls...] a 12! Plus 8, that's 20! w00t! Good thing I have those Boots so this nasty can't see me!"
Garden_State_Gamer 09-28-07, 08:38 AM	I like this method, because I can still have my group do hide checks or move silently checks. Way to read the entire post, guys.
goawayugh 09-28-07, 10:11 AM	What if the person is invisible and they only need to make move silent checks, or if they are silenced and they only need to make hide checks, then you are nerfing them. Invisible creatures still need to make hide checks, you just get insane bonuses (+20/+40). Read the hide skill again.
Tsuul 09-28-07, 02:10 PM	goawayugh, you aren't talking about what you quoted. :) This does sound like a good idea Jamesmay1983.
goawayugh 09-28-07, 02:14 PM	Yes I am. The quote is assuming that you don't need to make hide checks if you are invisible, but you do.
Tsuul 09-28-07, 04:24 PM	goawayugh, Silly semantics. I see the error now. Your arguing his mechanics and not his point. While it is true that an invisible creature still has to make hide checks, the second half of the sentence still carries out concerro's point (however wrong it was). Change "invisible" to "sneaking up on a blind guard" to fix the mechanics to properly illustrate his point.
Vharuck 09-28-07, 04:46 PM	Way to read the entire post, guys. Was read. The point was that, if the new Stealth modifier were determined by averaging Hide and Move Silently, then objects that previously only helped you hide (shadows, invisibility, cover) now also make you somehow quieter. That doesn't make sense.
tyrecian 09-28-07, 06:32 PM	this isnt the worst idea for PCs who have similar checks, and if you DM it correctly it would cut down on many double rolls. you just have to be conscious of what is going on (as a GM is anyways) so that you arent allowing a full plate PC with high hide to roll stealth, rather that would be a time at which you would roll seperately. As a general roll, i think this could be ok. It is kinda strange though, only because even 1st Ed. ad&d seperated hide n' shadows and move silently.
Jamesmay1983 09-28-07, 08:06 PM	Yes, you all do have a point about invisibility. I was not intending on my stealth modifier to be used every time a hide or move silently check was requried. DM judgement is certainly required. The reactions above illustrate just how important it is to not just use a stealth check for everything. My stealth idea came from some PC's I overheard complaining about having to roll two checks each time they tried to sneak coupled with general comments about Star Wars Saga Edition and 4th Edition. I'm not saying this should be in everyone's game, but I thought it would be cool to share a house rule I had thought up. Peace ~~JM
runestar 09-28-07, 10:00 PM	1 question: what do you oppose this sneak check with? Hide is opposed by spot, while move silently is opposed by listen. If you combined them into 1 check, what skill or check should the opponent use to oppose? :confused:
Tsuul 09-28-07, 10:12 PM	The combined spot and listen of course!
Jamesmay1983 09-29-07, 10:45 AM	The combined spot and listen of course! Exactly.
runestar 09-29-07, 10:22 PM	The combined spot and listen of course! Combined....? Don't you mean the average of the 2?:confused: Something seems mathematically problematic with pitting the average of your hide+move silently checks against the average of his spot+listen checks, as opposed to checking them separately, but I just can't put my finger on it at the moment... Can anyone with a background in statistics comment on the viability of this?:P
Tsuul 09-30-07, 01:34 AM	Don't you mean the average of the 2?Well yea, that's the combination I meant but didn't say. I was using your usage of the word combine from the post previous, as in combined into 1 check. :D Something seems mathematically problematic with pitting the average of your hide+move silently checks against the average of his spot+listen checks, as opposed to checking them separately, but I just can't put my finger on it at the moment...Lets say you have 5 ranks in hide and move silently, each. And your opponent has 5 ranks in spot and listen, each. It's pretty much a 1/4 chance that you won't get spotted or heard, 1/2 that you will either get spotted or heard, and a 1/4 chance you will be both spotted and heard. Add Boots of Awesome Silence (+50 to move silently checks), and the odds change to 1/2 chance you won't get spotted, and 1/2 chance you will get spotted; since you can now never be heard by that opponent while wearing the boots. The problem lies when you combine the rolls into an average, you will never be spotted or heard by that opponent. One solution would be to adopt full merging of the skills and change all magic items to a generic bonus. Another would be to adopt full merging of the skills and take into account specific item bonuses (like to sound) and to count them or not count them against various encounters (deaf monsters). I'm changing my stance.
runestar 09-30-07, 02:36 AM	Lets say you have 5 ranks in hide and move silently, each. And your opponent has 5 ranks in spot and listen, each. It's pretty much a 1/4 chance that you won't get spotted or heard, 1/2 that you will either get spotted or heard, and a 1/4 chance you will be both spotted and heard. Not quite. While the chance looks the same, you end up making less rolls, which translates to higher chance of success overall, since less tries means less failures possible (you only need to succeed once, as opposed to twice). Say, half and half, that translates to 25% chance of success. With the new combined check, there is only 1 roll, or 50% chance. Someone correct me if my math is faulty (and I profess to being only average in math), but doesn't this variant effectively double your chances of success?:confused:
Tsuul 09-30-07, 12:01 PM	Say, half and half, that translates to 25% chance of success. With the new combined check, there is only 1 roll, or 50% chance.Ahhh, yup.