Natural attacks, feats, spells, TWF [Archive] - Wizards Community

Natural attacks, feats, spells, TWF [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Haron
12-19-07, 04:58 PM We have a fairly complex situation here. I will explain it in a few words. Not surei if it belongs here or the spell section, move if needed please.

I have Magic Fang casted on me that improves the Claw attacks (we play a race that has natural claw attacks)
I also have Improved Natural Attack (Claw)

What happens if:

I get polymorphed into something bigger, which also has claw attacks that obviously do more damage. Do I get the feat? The spell?

I use Claws of the Bear - a spell that turns my hands into claws that deal 1d8 damage each (my normal natural attack damage is 1d4 since i am medium). Do I get the bonus from the feat? Or the magic fang spell?

I get Enlarged into something bigger? I am 99% sure i get the bonus from both things, but i need conformation.

Furthermore if I have the TWF/Improved TWF feat can I make additional attacks with my Claws when I take the full round action?

And just in order to to spawn in another thread... can I use charge combined with pounce, rake, leap attack and spring attack to jump on my enemy, claw him to the death and then keep moving?
Meep222
12-19-07, 05:39 PM Yes, to everything about size changes (except Claws of the Bear, DM's interpretation on that) stacks with the spell (you should also look into Greater Magic Fang, like Magic Fang only a total of +5 at 20th level) and the feat. The only reason I question Claws of the Bear is that, while it is a claw attack and you took Improved Natural Attack (Claw) it is replacing your natural claw attack with a new one, the Dm would have to rule as to how profecient you are at combining them with the feat.
No, you don't get any additional attacks from TWF/Imp. TWF, you also don't gain additional attacks from high BAB, if you have two claws, you get two claw attacks at your full base attack bonus (or a weapon attack and a claw attack at -5 or what not). If your type was right, you could take Rapidstrike (found in the Dragon Feats section of the Draconomicon) a few times or so to get more attacks.
Tordak
12-19-07, 05:43 PM We have a fairly complex situation here. I will explain it in a few words. Not surei if it belongs here or the spell section, move if needed please.

I have Magic Fang casted on me that improves the Claw attacks (we play a race that has natural claw attacks)
I also have Improved Natural Attack (Claw)

What happens if:

I get polymorphed into something bigger, which also has claw attacks that obviously do more damage. Do I get the feat? The spell?

I use Claws of the Bear - a spell that turns my hands into claws that deal 1d8 damage each (my normal natural attack damage is 1d4 since i am medium). Do I get the bonus from the feat? Or the magic fang spell?

I get Enlarged into something bigger? I am 99% sure i get the bonus from both things, but i need conformation.

I'm pretty sure it's yes. Improved natural is a learned feature, and if you still have claws you should still have it. Wheter you're enlarged or polymorph, the feat is still usable if you still have the natural attack for which you took it. I might be wrong, but I think most feat are considered extraordinary abilities derived from class level, which you keep. However, it's possible that they are not since they derive from you character level, and are not (usually) gained as part of class feature (unless your a fighter or some other class). Altough it's safe to say you don't usually gain character levels unless you gain class level.

Furthermore if I have the TWF/Improved TWF feat can I make additional attacks with my Claws when I take the full round action?

You do not get iterative attacks with natural weapon and cannot use 2-weapon fighting; this works only with manufactured weapons (an arguably with unarmed strikes for 2-weapon, but there are still debates on this).

And just in order to to spawn in another thread... can I use charge combined with pounce, rake, leap attack and spring attack to jump on my enemy, claw him to the death and then keep moving?

You can use charge with pounce, rake and leap attack, but you cannot charge and use spring attack, because charge is a full round action in itself, while spring attack is combining an attack action with a move; charge itself is an action that requires a full round and you end your movement when you attack. Spring attack requires you to move after, which is excluded from charge movement.

Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after.
Haron
12-19-07, 06:07 PM So If I take Armor Spikes for example can I use em as a secondary weapon to benefit from the TWF? Or rather, can i use my spikes as a main weapon, TWF and basic attack included and add my natural attacks at a -5 penalty as a secondary weapon?
dman11235
12-19-07, 06:20 PM No, your natural attacks are completely separate from your iterative attacks. Read the description in the SRD (link in my sig).
Haron
12-19-07, 06:38 PM I know where the SRD is... but where to look inside :)
Meep222
12-19-07, 06:51 PM So If I take Armor Spikes for example can I use em as a secondary weapon to benefit from the TWF? Or rather, can i use my spikes as a main weapon, TWF and basic attack included and add my natural attacks at a -5 penalty as a secondary weapon?
Yes... and no. As far as I'm aware ye cannot use armor spikes as a weapon except on I think bullrush attempts and in a grapple. But you can use any normal melee weapon and make your full number of iterative attacks and you can make secondary attacks with your free natural weapons at a -5 from your total Attack Bonus.

No, your natural attacks are completely separate from your iterative attacks. Read the description in the SRD (link in my sig).
Que?
dman11235
12-19-07, 06:51 PM Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons)
dman11235
12-19-07, 06:53 PM They come as a separate set. They do not affect your iterative attacks, and are not affected by iterative attacks. You get iterative attacks, which you can TWF and such with, and then you get natural, which take place outside the iterative attack sequence.
RobbyPants
12-20-07, 12:08 PM They come as a separate set. They do not affect your iterative attacks, and are not affected by iterative attacks. You get iterative attacks, which you can TWF and such with, and then you get natural, which take place outside the iterative attack sequence.
On a semi-related note, could you use TWF with a slam attack? Normally you only get one per round. It seems reasonable, but I have yet to find anything definitive on the matter.
dman11235
12-20-07, 02:06 PM It's a natural attack, no.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Haron 12-19-07, 04:58 PM	We have a fairly complex situation here. I will explain it in a few words. Not surei if it belongs here or the spell section, move if needed please. I have Magic Fang casted on me that improves the Claw attacks (we play a race that has natural claw attacks) I also have Improved Natural Attack (Claw) What happens if: I get polymorphed into something bigger, which also has claw attacks that obviously do more damage. Do I get the feat? The spell? I use Claws of the Bear - a spell that turns my hands into claws that deal 1d8 damage each (my normal natural attack damage is 1d4 since i am medium). Do I get the bonus from the feat? Or the magic fang spell? I get Enlarged into something bigger? I am 99% sure i get the bonus from both things, but i need conformation. Furthermore if I have the TWF/Improved TWF feat can I make additional attacks with my Claws when I take the full round action? And just in order to to spawn in another thread... can I use charge combined with pounce, rake, leap attack and spring attack to jump on my enemy, claw him to the death and then keep moving?
Meep222 12-19-07, 05:39 PM	Yes, to everything about size changes (except Claws of the Bear, DM's interpretation on that) stacks with the spell (you should also look into Greater Magic Fang, like Magic Fang only a total of +5 at 20th level) and the feat. The only reason I question Claws of the Bear is that, while it is a claw attack and you took Improved Natural Attack (Claw) it is replacing your natural claw attack with a new one, the Dm would have to rule as to how profecient you are at combining them with the feat. No, you don't get any additional attacks from TWF/Imp. TWF, you also don't gain additional attacks from high BAB, if you have two claws, you get two claw attacks at your full base attack bonus (or a weapon attack and a claw attack at -5 or what not). If your type was right, you could take Rapidstrike (found in the Dragon Feats section of the Draconomicon) a few times or so to get more attacks.
Tordak 12-19-07, 05:43 PM	We have a fairly complex situation here. I will explain it in a few words. Not surei if it belongs here or the spell section, move if needed please. I have Magic Fang casted on me that improves the Claw attacks (we play a race that has natural claw attacks) I also have Improved Natural Attack (Claw) What happens if: I get polymorphed into something bigger, which also has claw attacks that obviously do more damage. Do I get the feat? The spell? I use Claws of the Bear - a spell that turns my hands into claws that deal 1d8 damage each (my normal natural attack damage is 1d4 since i am medium). Do I get the bonus from the feat? Or the magic fang spell? I get Enlarged into something bigger? I am 99% sure i get the bonus from both things, but i need conformation. I'm pretty sure it's yes. Improved natural is a learned feature, and if you still have claws you should still have it. Wheter you're enlarged or polymorph, the feat is still usable if you still have the natural attack for which you took it. I might be wrong, but I think most feat are considered extraordinary abilities derived from class level, which you keep. However, it's possible that they are not since they derive from you character level, and are not (usually) gained as part of class feature (unless your a fighter or some other class). Altough it's safe to say you don't usually gain character levels unless you gain class level. Furthermore if I have the TWF/Improved TWF feat can I make additional attacks with my Claws when I take the full round action? You do not get iterative attacks with natural weapon and cannot use 2-weapon fighting; this works only with manufactured weapons (an arguably with unarmed strikes for 2-weapon, but there are still debates on this). And just in order to to spawn in another thread... can I use charge combined with pounce, rake, leap attack and spring attack to jump on my enemy, claw him to the death and then keep moving? You can use charge with pounce, rake and leap attack, but you cannot charge and use spring attack, because charge is a full round action in itself, while spring attack is combining an attack action with a move; charge itself is an action that requires a full round and you end your movement when you attack. Spring attack requires you to move after, which is excluded from charge movement. Movement During a Charge You must move before your attack, not after.
Haron 12-19-07, 06:07 PM	So If I take Armor Spikes for example can I use em as a secondary weapon to benefit from the TWF? Or rather, can i use my spikes as a main weapon, TWF and basic attack included and add my natural attacks at a -5 penalty as a secondary weapon?
dman11235 12-19-07, 06:20 PM	No, your natural attacks are completely separate from your iterative attacks. Read the description in the SRD (link in my sig).
Haron 12-19-07, 06:38 PM	I know where the SRD is... but where to look inside :)
Meep222 12-19-07, 06:51 PM	So If I take Armor Spikes for example can I use em as a secondary weapon to benefit from the TWF? Or rather, can i use my spikes as a main weapon, TWF and basic attack included and add my natural attacks at a -5 penalty as a secondary weapon? Yes... and no. As far as I'm aware ye cannot use armor spikes as a weapon except on I think bullrush attempts and in a grapple. But you can use any normal melee weapon and make your full number of iterative attacks and you can make secondary attacks with your free natural weapons at a -5 from your total Attack Bonus. No, your natural attacks are completely separate from your iterative attacks. Read the description in the SRD (link in my sig). Que?
dman11235 12-19-07, 06:51 PM	Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons)
dman11235 12-19-07, 06:53 PM	They come as a separate set. They do not affect your iterative attacks, and are not affected by iterative attacks. You get iterative attacks, which you can TWF and such with, and then you get natural, which take place outside the iterative attack sequence.
RobbyPants 12-20-07, 12:08 PM	They come as a separate set. They do not affect your iterative attacks, and are not affected by iterative attacks. You get iterative attacks, which you can TWF and such with, and then you get natural, which take place outside the iterative attack sequence. On a semi-related note, could you use TWF with a slam attack? Normally you only get one per round. It seems reasonable, but I have yet to find anything definitive on the matter.
dman11235 12-20-07, 02:06 PM	It's a natural attack, no.