Natural Spell Houserule Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Natural Spell Houserule Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FponkDamn
08-03-07, 12:23 AM Couldn't Natural Spell become a Wild Feat very easily? Say, you can cast any of your spells in Wild Shape no problem, but each spell cast eats up a Wild Shape use for the day? Seems like it balances it without too much trouble - sure, it doesn't address some of the larger concerns, but at least it shouldn't meet with too much resistence, right?

Any thoughts?

- Johnny
jaelis
08-03-07, 12:44 AM Its a pretty serious nerf, I don't think anyone will be confused about that. Would the feat still be worth taking? I'm not sure, perhaps at fairly high levels where your spells are da bomb and you definitely have wild shapes to spare.

The solution I prefer is to use the new shapeshift rules.
runestar
08-03-07, 12:46 AM Or just place more emphasis on longer lasting duration buffs and attack more during combat.
TheAnthroDM
08-03-07, 12:57 AM Good Fix. You've earned my stamp of approval.
FponkDamn
08-03-07, 03:40 AM I'm a big fan of the shapeshift rules as well, except for two things - they don't take into account Wild Feats (which I've always loved) and prestige class powers in a similar vein. Many cool prestige classes use Wild Shape as a yardstick, and even saying that Shapeshift meets the prerequisites doesn't help the fact that many of the PrC abilities utilize the per/day technology. If everyone only played core classes, I'd love shapeshift forever.

Wild Shape lasts long enough that you really don't need as many times per day as you get, especially with extra wild shape and what have you. Which is one of the things that makes the Wild Feats cool - like Divine and Bardic feats, they're fueled by an existing mechanic that you might not otherwise use in its entirety. So this limits you to a half dozen (give or take) spells per day while in Wild Shape, but doesn't get rid of the feat completely. I'd even say it was still very good, in that I'd almost certainly take it if I were a druid.

Or at least, if I were a druid with a prestige class. :)

- Johnny
Witch
08-03-07, 03:41 AM Personally, I find making it a Metamagic feat with a +1 adjustment seems more useable.
Nezkrul
08-03-07, 08:58 AM I find no problems with Natural Spell, as written, and I've DM'd many a game as well as played in them.
Bihlbo
08-03-07, 11:00 AM The solution I prefer is to use the new shapeshift rules.

Forgive my ignorance, but to what new shapeshift rules do you refer?
Ovistavin
08-03-07, 11:08 AM Forgive my ignorance, but to what new shapeshift rules do you refer?
I think he means the shapeshift varient in the PHB2. I don't have the book so I can't say how it's different.
jaelis
08-03-07, 11:38 AM Forgive my ignorance, but to what new shapeshift rules do you refer?

It's in the PHBII. In a nutshell, you trade the animal companion and wildshape for the shapeshift ability, which is available at level 1. It's a free action to shift, and you can use it at will. You don't shift into a particular creature, instead you have general "forms" that grant specific bonuses to ability scores and specific attack abilities. As you level up, more forms become available. You can't cast while shifted, but it's a swift action to switch back. It is a power down compared to what you give up, but it is much simpler and more fun to play. (And it's still plenty effective.)
runestar
08-03-07, 10:35 PM For one thing - you are no longer allowed to dump your physical stats since shapeshift adds bonuses to them, rather than setting them to a fixed value, thus making druid MAD to some extent (you will want decent str/dex/con and good wis scores).

The forms are fixed, so no more scouring your MM for that fleshraker dinosaur or legendary bear crap.

I think that wild armour should at least work in shapeshift, but as of the moment, there seems to be no support for it.:(
Nezkrul
08-04-07, 11:24 AM the problem with shapeshift is it requires lots of houserules to make the druid playable, because shapeshift is not wildshape, does not count as wildshape, and still has the problems of wildshape (gear melding, retain hitpoints, etc.)

If ya got a problem with what the druid can turn into, limit him to the MM1 until he actually encounters something he might be able to turn into. Done it, and had it done to me on more than one occasion and all parties were okay with it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FponkDamn 08-03-07, 12:23 AM	Couldn't Natural Spell become a Wild Feat very easily? Say, you can cast any of your spells in Wild Shape no problem, but each spell cast eats up a Wild Shape use for the day? Seems like it balances it without too much trouble - sure, it doesn't address some of the larger concerns, but at least it shouldn't meet with too much resistence, right? Any thoughts? - Johnny
jaelis 08-03-07, 12:44 AM	Its a pretty serious nerf, I don't think anyone will be confused about that. Would the feat still be worth taking? I'm not sure, perhaps at fairly high levels where your spells are da bomb and you definitely have wild shapes to spare. The solution I prefer is to use the new shapeshift rules.
runestar 08-03-07, 12:46 AM	Or just place more emphasis on longer lasting duration buffs and attack more during combat.
TheAnthroDM 08-03-07, 12:57 AM	Good Fix. You've earned my stamp of approval.
FponkDamn 08-03-07, 03:40 AM	I'm a big fan of the shapeshift rules as well, except for two things - they don't take into account Wild Feats (which I've always loved) and prestige class powers in a similar vein. Many cool prestige classes use Wild Shape as a yardstick, and even saying that Shapeshift meets the prerequisites doesn't help the fact that many of the PrC abilities utilize the per/day technology. If everyone only played core classes, I'd love shapeshift forever. Wild Shape lasts long enough that you really don't need as many times per day as you get, especially with extra wild shape and what have you. Which is one of the things that makes the Wild Feats cool - like Divine and Bardic feats, they're fueled by an existing mechanic that you might not otherwise use in its entirety. So this limits you to a half dozen (give or take) spells per day while in Wild Shape, but doesn't get rid of the feat completely. I'd even say it was still very good, in that I'd almost certainly take it if I were a druid. Or at least, if I were a druid with a prestige class. :) - Johnny
Witch 08-03-07, 03:41 AM	Personally, I find making it a Metamagic feat with a +1 adjustment seems more useable.
Nezkrul 08-03-07, 08:58 AM	I find no problems with Natural Spell, as written, and I've DM'd many a game as well as played in them.
Bihlbo 08-03-07, 11:00 AM	The solution I prefer is to use the new shapeshift rules. Forgive my ignorance, but to what new shapeshift rules do you refer?
Ovistavin 08-03-07, 11:08 AM	Forgive my ignorance, but to what new shapeshift rules do you refer? I think he means the shapeshift varient in the PHB2. I don't have the book so I can't say how it's different.
jaelis 08-03-07, 11:38 AM	Forgive my ignorance, but to what new shapeshift rules do you refer? It's in the PHBII. In a nutshell, you trade the animal companion and wildshape for the shapeshift ability, which is available at level 1. It's a free action to shift, and you can use it at will. You don't shift into a particular creature, instead you have general "forms" that grant specific bonuses to ability scores and specific attack abilities. As you level up, more forms become available. You can't cast while shifted, but it's a swift action to switch back. It is a power down compared to what you give up, but it is much simpler and more fun to play. (And it's still plenty effective.)
runestar 08-03-07, 10:35 PM	For one thing - you are no longer allowed to dump your physical stats since shapeshift adds bonuses to them, rather than setting them to a fixed value, thus making druid MAD to some extent (you will want decent str/dex/con and good wis scores). The forms are fixed, so no more scouring your MM for that fleshraker dinosaur or legendary bear crap. I think that wild armour should at least work in shapeshift, but as of the moment, there seems to be no support for it.:(
Nezkrul 08-04-07, 11:24 AM	the problem with shapeshift is it requires lots of houserules to make the druid playable, because shapeshift is not wildshape, does not count as wildshape, and still has the problems of wildshape (gear melding, retain hitpoints, etc.) If ya got a problem with what the druid can turn into, limit him to the MM1 until he actually encounters something he might be able to turn into. Done it, and had it done to me on more than one occasion and all parties were okay with it.