Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ManinBlaq 03-17-07, 01:43 PM	I'm trying to build a Monk (possibly w/ Fighter) Unarmed Sunderer. Basically, the issue is getting his attack up so that he can actually 'hit' the opponents weapon. (It's opposed attack rolls vs fighters). Using unarmed strikes his sunder attempt is at -4. With Improved Sunder (+4) and a few other tricks that treat him as a size larger .. (giving him another +4 against medium creatures), I'm having difficulty just overcoming the monks lower BAB progression. Are there any other Sunder oriented feats and weapon enhancements I can use to jack his attack roll up for sunder attempts?
daladinn 03-17-07, 02:53 PM	tbh , it wont really matter , read on sundering again . your going to find that you need a weapon with a higher bonus to sunder another weapon. basically your monk will be able to sunder any non-magic weapons he wants not really worth in imho.
ManinBlaq 03-17-07, 05:35 PM	Ok .. First off .. a monk's unarmed strike is considered magical. The monk doesn't get a precise +bonus effect, so you would simply assume the minimum required for the situation. Second off, everything you describe has been corrected in the FAQ. Any weapon, even mundane .. can be used to sunder any other weapon .. even a +5 Adamantine Vorpal one. Magical weapons receive an increase in hardness and hitpoints -- so compared to their mundane counterparts ..they are much more difficult to sunder.
Lord_Iames 03-17-07, 06:05 PM	There's a feat called Eagle Claw Strike in Complete Warrior that helps unarmed sundering.
ManinBlaq 03-18-07, 09:06 PM	Yea I saw that too ... Basically I'm not concerned about damage, or hardness ... the build is going to be able to break most items in a single hit. The biggest issue right now, is the opposed attack rolls -- the monk has several disadvantages. 1. Lower BAB progression 2. Unarmed Strikes are Light so -4 penalty I'm looking for resources that will help me to overcome these limitations. Figured maybe someone else in the community was more knowledgable/insightful than myself.
PhaedrusXY 03-18-07, 09:15 PM	Take a level of Sorcerer or Wizard, and get a Wand of True Strike. +20 to attack rolls. Sunder is an opposed attack roll. Yes, it will take two rounds, but you'll beat just about anyone on the attempt. You could also look into things to beef up your damage like Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc. You could also take Use Magic Device ranks and use the wand. The DC is only 20.
runestar 03-19-07, 12:18 AM	tbh , it wont really matter , read on sundering again . your going to find that you need a weapon with a higher bonus to sunder another weapon. basically your monk will be able to sunder any non-magic weapons he wants That was changed in 3.5. Magical weapons are still harder to sunder because they have higher hp/hardness, but they can still be sundered by lower magical weapons or even mundane weapons if the opponent rolls well enough. Thus, a giant with a club could sunder your +5 greatsword if he is lucky enough (or vice versa).:)
ManinBlaq 03-19-07, 01:15 AM	For those interested, I have been able to find a few useful things in the latest book: Magic Item Compendium Helm of Battle RapidStrike Bracers
Mystyc 03-19-07, 03:00 AM	Anything that improves your attack roll (like Weapon Focus) will obviously help, but don't forget one important tool: flurry of blows. Yes, yes, it's another penalty, but it's also another roll. The more times you make that opposed roll, the more chances you have to just beat them with a 16 against their 3, modifiers be damned.
ManinBlaq 03-20-07, 12:43 PM	Actually I was planning on taking the Decisive Strike variant from PH2. Double Damage is just too sweet to pass up and I have a few tricks to get an extra hit or two in as well. Also, FYI ... found another item in Item Compendium .. bracers that a 1/day charge of true strike.
jadehawk 03-20-07, 12:50 PM	How about improved trip? It starts as a touch attack, which is usually easy to land. And if you are already working out a way to be considered one size class larger the opposed roll shouldn't be too tough. Your free follow up attack could be used to sunder at a +4 to attack, and they get a -4 to attack while prone, correct? If so, that's an effective +8 on your sunder attack.
RobbyPants 03-20-07, 01:22 PM	There's also the maneuver in the tactial feat Combat Brute that lets you attack an opponent (for free) if you successfully break their weapon or shield with a sunder. This doesn't help you with sundering, per se, but it does grant you a free attack for each successful sunder.
Kradlo 03-20-07, 10:07 PM	A potion of enlarge person will help. Get big, get nice bonuses to sunder attempts.
ManinBlaq 03-21-07, 02:26 PM	How about improved trip? It starts as a touch attack, which is usually easy to land. And if you are already working out a way to be considered one size class larger the opposed roll shouldn't be too tough. Your free follow up attack could be used to sunder at a +4 to attack, and they get a -4 to attack while prone, correct? If so, that's an effective +8 on your sunder attack. Wow .. I wasn't even considering that route. Excellent tactic sir. There's also the maneuver in the tactial feat Combat Brute that lets you attack an opponent (for free) if you successfully break their weapon or shield with a sunder. This doesn't help you with sundering, per se, but it does grant you a free attack for each successful sunder. Yea .. I was considering Combat Brute -- but the monk doesn't get a lot of feats. However, after thinking of Jade's trip tactic .. this could get really ugly. Decisive strike .. make a trip -- put them on the ground, get a free attack -- make a sunder attempt recieving +4 to attack while they get -4 to theirs (doubling unarmed damage) .. break their weapon, get a free cleave attack against them .. with a +4 to attack (doubling unarmed damage). That's gonna be very ugly.
ManinBlaq 03-21-07, 02:33 PM	If I stun them, they drop their weapons ..and then I can sunder them by simply rolling against an AC of 10. (perhaps modified by size). Also .. how can a monk go about in reliably placing conditions on his advisaries .. such as 'shaken' and 'sickened'. There are feats to enhance their stunning fist .. but I'm looking for magical/alchemical items most likely. If I can shaken and/or sicken them .. that's another -2 to their attacks.
ManinBlaq 03-22-07, 05:32 PM	How about improved trip? It starts as a touch attack, which is usually easy to land. And if you are already working out a way to be considered one size class larger the opposed roll shouldn't be too tough. Your free follow up attack could be used to sunder at a +4 to attack, and they get a -4 to attack while prone, correct? If so, that's an effective +8 on your sunder attack. Dang .. it occurs to me that there is a flaw here. Basically, the penalties for being prone are -4 to melee attacks, you can't make ranged attacks .. and you take a penalty of -4 to your AC. So attempting to sunder a prone target, does not give a bonus of +8 .. Basically, -4 to their AC is not equal to +4 to my attack, although in ~most~ situations it is equivilent. However, in attempting to sunder -- I'm not attacking them, so a penalty to their AC is irrelevant. Still, it's a viable tactic, as it reduces their Attack by -4 .. which is still much better than a poke in the eye.
jadehawk 03-22-07, 05:46 PM	Darn, I led you slightly astray. Still it is a +4 bonus and you have the added bonus of having the character on the ground as a result, meaning they either attack you from the ground at their -4 or they get up as a standard action (drawing an attack of opportunity) or they waste a full round action getting up without drawing the attack of opportunity. And say you do sunder the weapon on the first hit, you'll benefit from the reduced AC as you will likely now want to beat the fallen enemy to a pulp. But no +8...ahh well
Fireclave 03-22-07, 06:28 PM	To create a Breaky McHappySunder character, I would suggest using a PsyWar instead of a monk. Take the following feats for ultimate In-Your-Face-itude: Power Attack Improved Attack Focused Sunder Weapon Focus (your favored weapon) Sense Weakness Combat Brute Improved Bullrush Shocktrooper Psionic Meditation (optional) And consider taking the following powers: Precognition, Offensive Prescience, Offensive Dispell Psionics (via the Expanded Knowledge feat) Psionic Lion Charge The battle plan: Boost your attack and damage rolls as high as possible with Offensive Precognition and Offensive Prescience (prior to the start of combat if possible). Use Dispell Psionics on the target of your aggression to make their equipment non-magical. Manifest Psionic Lion's charge. Power Attack for full and charge your enemy, converting most of the attack penalty to an AC penalty. Focused Sunder combined with Sense Weakness will make any substance, including adament, melt like butter under your attack. Use your free attack granted by Momentum Swing maneuver to sunder your opponent's shield. Since you still have almost a full-attack action's worth of attacks left, concentrate them on your now offense-less and defenseless opponent. If your opponent somehow survived that barrage, he'll have no (primary) weapon left to take advantage of your lowered AC. If, somehow, your attacks did break the target item in the first round, use psionic mediation to regain your psi-focus and focus sunder again. If the item is still not broken, chances are you are dealing with an artifact and need to reevaluate your commit to the current enounter. Fine tune this strategy to taste. Disclaimer: Most sane DMs will tolerate this no more than three times before they start casting Summon Great Wrym Red Dragon, God's Judgement Bolt, Rain of Tarrasque, and Screw You I'm Goin' Home. Fireclave is not responsible to damage to the time-space continuum by combining the above build with the Vow of Poverty feat. Safety is not guaranteed. All rights reserved.
jadehawk 03-22-07, 06:38 PM	If you go by way of Psychic Warrior definitely choose Expansion as one of your 1st level powers. 1 point increases your size by 1 and your strength by +2, and you can spend 6 additional points (according to your manifester level and available power points) to get bigger and bigger. Every size increase will improve your opposed rolls by +5 including size and strength bonus. On top of that you will increase your reach which is always handy. But I forgot for a moment that you are focusing on the attack, not the damage because you've already got that part figured out right? If so, forget I ever submitted this.
Fireclave 03-22-07, 06:50 PM	Both the attack and the damage are covered. Offensive Prescience, maxed-out Power Attack, and the increased damage from the Combat Brute feat should take care of most things made out of matter. Of course, there are tons more ways to up the power (Expansion, Claws of the Beast, a good 2H Greatsword, acidic burst property, diving as part of your charge, ect). The above is just what I would consider the minimum to gain the full benefits of the prescribed attack plan.
PhaedrusXY 03-22-07, 07:04 PM	If I stun them, they drop their weapons ..and then I can sunder them by simply rolling against an AC of 10. (perhaps modified by size). Also .. how can a monk go about in reliably placing conditions on his advisaries .. such as 'shaken' and 'sickened'. There are feats to enhance their stunning fist .. but I'm looking for magical/alchemical items most likely. If I can shaken and/or sicken them .. that's another -2 to their attacks.Here is a character I submitted for an old contest on the CO board. It is a monk/blackguard that also had a bunch of magic items and abilities that caused his enemies to save vs. a bunch of stuff every time he hit them. You might find it useful. I didn't make him as a dedicated Sunderer, but he certainly could be decent at it, especially if you tweaked him a bit.Darkfire Disciple by Phaedrus XY Inspired by Balthanon's Hellstorm Disciple http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fp_gallery/fp1/Kossuth_p36.jpg Character Name: Issanis Re'makat Race: Human Class and Level: Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou Disciple3/Disciple of Mephistopholes9/Blackguard3 System: Forgotten Realms Short Description: I've had the original version of this character stored on my hard drive for years. Balthanon was far ahead of his time. :D This version has great saving throws, hit points, damage output, and base attack bonus. Due to my selection of magic items to augment his flaming punches, his enemies have to worry about alot more than just physical damage every time he hits them. And with the Sun School feat and his Cloak of Flying, closing the distance to annoying spellcasters shouldn't be a problem. Ability Scores: Str: 14 (5level+6item =25 +7) Dex: 14 (+6item =20 +5) Con: 14 (+6item =20 +5) Int: 10 Wis: 10 Cha: 16 (+6item =22 +6) Hit Points: 8+19d10+100 =212.5 Base Attack Bonus: +19 Armor Class: 10+10armor+5defl+5nat+5dex+1dodge=36 Saves: F17, R13, W13 (F34, R30, W30 including bonuses) Initiative: +5 Speed: 30 Attacks: +30/30/30/25/20/15 hasted flurry, Damage 1d10+12+6+1d6fire+1con+1negative level (and must make 4 saves vs. various effects) (Bonuses and penalties for the Potions of Enlarge Person not included above) Progression: 01 Monk1 Dodge, Unarmed Strike (b), Improved Grapple (b), Evil Brand (h) 02 Monk1/Fighter1 Weapon Focus: Unarmed (b) 03 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade1 Disciple of Darkness 04 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade2 05 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3 06 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou1 Sun School 07 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou2 Power Attack (b) 08 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou2/DoM1 09 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou2/DoM2 Cleave 10 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou2/DoM3 11 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3//Shou3/DoM3 12 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou3/DoM4 Improved Sunder 13 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou3/DoM4/Blackguard1 14 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou3/DoM4/Blackguard2 15 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou3/DoM4/Blackguard3 Divine Might 16 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou3/DoM5/Blackguard3 17 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou3/DoM6/Blackguard3 18 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou3/DoM7/Blackguard3 Combat Brute 19 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou3/DoM8/Blackguard3 20 Monk1/Fighter1/Hexblade3/Shou3/DoM9/Blackguard3 Skills of Note: Jump 8, Tumble 4, Balance 4, Hide 5, Know (Religion) 2, Use Magic Device 11 (cross class) Special Abilities of Note: Charisma to saves twice, Charisma to damage via Divine Might Evasion and Mettle Aura of Despair Hexblade's Curse Hellfire Grasp (Su): 1d6 fire damage touch attack, also added onto unarmed attack damage. Fire Resistance 20 (Su) Hellfire Blast (Su): Ranged touch attack that does 4d6 fire damage, 30 foot range. Flare (Sp): As the Flare spell once per day per Disciple of Mephistopholes class level. Summon Hamatula (Sp): Can summon 1d4 hamatulas once per day as a Summon Monster spell cast by a 15th level caster. Hellfire (Sp): 3xday as the Hellfire spell (BovD). Fire Shield (Sp): 2xday as the spell at 15th caster level. Hellfire Storm (Sp): 2xday as the Hellfire Storm spell (BoVD) at 15th caster level. Martial Flurry (Ex): Can use any light weapon with his flurry of blows ability. This can be used when wearing light armor or no armor. Unarmed Strike: 1d10 base damage (2d6 when Enlarged via his ring) Items of Note: Wand of Dimension Door (10,500), Wings of Flying+Cloak of Resistance +5 (91,500), Ring (Collar) of Virulent Venom (138,000, DC 20), Piercing Needles of Pain (35,000, BoVD), Necklace of Natural Weapons which conveys the following properties on one of his attacks: +1 Flaming, Wounding, Souldrinking, and Curse Spewing (+9 equivalent, 162,600), Ring of Protection +5 combined with a Ring of Weeping (54,500), Cloak of Charisma +6 (36,000), Belt of Giant Strength +6 combined with a Monk's Belt (55,500), Vest of Health +6 (36,000), +5 Mithril Breastplate (29,350), Boots of Speed combined with an Amulet of Natural Armor +5(87,000), Wand of Enlarge Person (750), Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750) Permanent Greater Magic Fang (20th level caster, 9,100 gp, PHB) Total spent: 737,450 (I was tempted to go with Beast Claws from Savage Species, combined with Willing Deformity and Deformity: Claws, instead of the Shou Disciple levels...) Books: Unapproachable East (Shou Disciple), Complete Warrior (several feats), Book of Vile Darkness (Disciple of Mephistopholes, a few feats), Savage Species (an item or two) Tactics: For every successful attack Issanis makes, his enemy takes one negative level and one point of Constitution damage, and has to make 4 saving throws to avoid being Poisoned, Wracked with Pain, overwhelmed with despair, or cursed. He can use his Wand to close with those attacking him from a distance and deliver an attack on them in the same round. His usual tactic against spellcasters is to ready an action to Dimension Door (wand) next to them if they begin casting a spell. Then he uses his attack from the Sun School feat to sunder their holy symbol or spell component pouch and "cleaves" into the spellcaster with Combat Brute. He tries to initiate a grapple with this attack, if it would make sense to do so.I agree that some Psychic Warrior levels are a good idea (or Warmind). Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9962817&postcount=171) is a crazy 30th level sunderer that I entered in an arena contest on the epic board. He won the only match I bothered to enter him in, against another psiwarrior who's AC I could have normally only hit on a natural 20. He wasn't too tough after I broke all his magic toys, though. (Sorry Seerow :D )
ManinBlaq 03-23-07, 03:26 PM	Well, here is the build I'm toying with so far. Just for your info: this is considered a 'power' game. Stat rolls are pretty lenient, 4d6 (1's rerolled) 7 rolls - better of 6. Flaws are available. The character is a 12th lvl Warforged Monk 11 Psy Warrior 1 Feats: F1: Power Attack F2: Improved Sunder P1: Combat Expertise P3: Hold the Line P6: Improved Natural Weapon P9: Combat Brute p12: Improved Fortification PW1: Superior Unarmed Strike (taken @ clvl 4) Monk Variant: Decisive Strike Notes: With a Battlefist (adamantine) and Monk's belt, the character's base unarmed damage will be: 6d8 -- when making a decisive strike, that damage will be 12d8, even when sundering. (Treated as a 20th lvl monk, 2 sizes larger). [ A single level of Pyschic Warrior isn't enough to be useful. Are there Items or feats such as Practiced Spellcaster to increase my effective Manifestor level? The one level of Psychic Warrior will give me expansion -- giving +4 to trip and sunder attempts, as well as increasing unarmed strike damage to 8d8 (16d8 decisive strike). Even a +1 or +2 manifester level would make this really worthwhile.] The rest of the equipment will be to raise combat tatics, (Sunder, Trip, etc) as high as possible. With the current gear I'm looking at modifiers: Trip: +12 Sunder: +14 (if prone & medium) Tactics: His tactics are to set himself up, and wait for them to come to him (on his terms). If the opponents are approaching, the character will take a full round to enter Decisive Strike stance and Combat Expertise for full -- if he anticipates opponents will charge (banking on Hold the Line will give an AoO). Otherwise, character will ready an action to combat expertise and trip once someone comes into range. Snatch Arrow will help to prevent sniping from range. melee tactics -- Character will make Decisive Strikes each round. First tripping the opponent, then sundering his weapons (or items such as spell components) and making a 'stunning' (with +2 DC) sundering cleave into the opponent. I estimate his Touch AC to be in the low 30's, his saves overall should be pretty good and being immune to sneak attack and crits is pretty useful. He'll be focusing on Dex and Wis. Comments?
PhaedrusXY 03-23-07, 03:36 PM	[ A single level of Pyschic Warrior isn't enough to be useful. Are there Items or feats such as Practiced Spellcaster to increase my effective Manifestor level? The one level of Psychic Warrior will give me expansion -- giving +4 to trip and sunder attempts, as well as increasing unarmed strike damage to 8d8 (16d8 decisive strike). Even a +1 or +2 manifester level would make this really worthwhile.]Practiced Manifester, in Complete Psionic. You'll need Pearls of Power, or whatever the psionic versions are called, to have enough power points to take full advantage of that, I think. I'd suggest progressing in Warmind afterwards. Sweeping Strike should be a very good ability for this character.
maskimus 03-23-07, 03:44 PM	Take a level of Binder.(ToM) Bind the 1st level vestige 'AYM'. Among other abilities, you get Improved Sunder and an ability called Ruinous Attack, which doubles your damage against objects.:cool:
jadehawk 03-23-07, 04:18 PM	If you can manage 3 levels in Psychic Warrior I would try to do it. That with Practiced Manifester will get your effective manifester level up to 7 (which would allow you to increase your size by 2 categories with the expansion power). Three levels in PsyWar also gives you an extra feat (fighter or psionic) to play with, as well as additional power points and I think access to a second level power.
ManinBlaq 03-23-07, 07:49 PM	Well I need to be monk 11 .. that gives me 2 decisive strike attacks... After that it's open. The War Mind is tempting ... how would a Sweeping Trip work? ..Seems pretty nasty. Sweeping Trip + Sweeping Sunder + Sweeping Cleave ... damn that is just ... ~evil~
NiQil 03-24-07, 02:21 AM	Well I need to be monk 11 .. that gives me 2 decisive strike attacks... After that it's open. The War Mind is tempting ... how would a Sweeping Trip work? ..Seems pretty nasty. Sweeping Trip + Sweeping Sunder + Sweeping Cleave ... damn that is just ... ~evil~ Only if you call him The Janitor....and just for kicks give him a big long handled push broom that works like a quarterstaff....